# Old Kohler 60kw Help



## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Hi again, new thread for a different problem.

https://youtu.be/SuQc2gmoDXs

I am wondering something. Is it necessary to have the throttle on the fuel injection open full to get proper voltage?

Is there something wrong with the voltage regulation? Is there something wrong with the Exciter?

Is the injection pump the wrong one for this machine or is it just not setup properly?

Previous owner replaced it but never used it after for any length of time.

Shouldn't the generator auto regulate this? 

Am I missing something entirely? Probably....

There is a decent amount of smoke coming from the exhaust, white smoke. Is the timing for the injection wrong?

Thanks


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

I watched your video. Based on what I saw my original suggestion still stands: 
>. Set the throttle for 60hz, which is 1800 rpm. You can't do anything else until the engine is running at its rated speed.
>. Use the panel mounted freq meter (upper right) to indicate when it's at 60 hz - the meter will rise and center on "60"
>. Once at proper speed lock the throttle down, don't play with it further. 

These are the first steps I would do. IF you follow these steps then you can check for voltage. And possibly move on to other questions.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Thank you melson, that cleared a few things up right away in my head. 

I kept an eye on the Hz meter while adjusting the throttle. Got it to a steady 60hz. Voltages are fine.

I guess all that is left is to find a wiring diagram to wire to Single Phase, and maybe try to reduce the white smoke from the exhaust or at least find a way to mask it.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

OK hopefully things are starting to make sense - 1 thing at a time is how you do it. 
Questions: May I ask why you want to wire fully single phase? Do you know how many KW your expected load is?
Reason I ask is because, since that is a 3 ph alternator you already have three, single phase-to-neutral circuits that will power multiple loads.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Will be using around 35kw.

I have it wired into a single phase panel right now.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

Each leg of the three phases will theoretically carry 20kw to neutral. In practice this could be a bit conservative. 

Personally, I'd put some thought into splitting your loads so that half go onto one phase, the rest onto another. 
This would preserve the integrity and rating of the genset, make it easier to sell, easier to troubleshoot, easier to repair.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

So a 3 phase panel to manage the loads?

I was hoping to avoid rewiring the panel and having to buy a new one.

Is it that difficult to rewire to single phase on this machine, the wiring is very easy to access. I just wish I knew which wires to put where.....

Any ideas?

Thanks again


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

No, not a 3-ph panel.
It might help to visualize that each phase of the 3 phases as a single, independent leg capable of powering XX amps (to the neutral leg) 

Each leg of the three is capable of running single ph loads.

Thus, if you can find a way to split your ac breaker panel then you could use two of the three phases in that manner. 

However, (there's always a "but", right?)... 
This is a three phase set and is meant to power loads between phases. 
This means that the neutral wire is not meant to handle all the power that the alternator can produce, and, in fact, is not sized from the factory to do so. 
At some point you risk overloading that single neutral conductor.
Also, by using the generator in such a manner -were you to heavily load two of the three legs (to the neutral wire)- then you are unbalancing the alternator. 
That is a somewhat lesser, secondary issue. One you can get away with as long as you understand it and the combined loads don't overload that neutral wire's ampacity.

For example, a severely unbalanced generator can exhibit heating of the alternator and 'chugging' or oscillation of the prime mover. That would be a worse case scenario. 
In your case it doesn't sound like this would be an issue, but you need to understand it. 

And, so, given all of the above, this is where the "but" comes into play. Because, as you see this isn't a normal operating scenario and, although it's definitely doable, there are some considerations that make doing so a bit more complicated.

Because of the above I very *highly*recommend that you find the resources to hire a qualified expert, either a local electrician who knows generators, or, you could call Kohler, who would find a local certified contractor for you to hire. 
Another contractor you could contact is Alturdyne in California. They employ qualified generator techs around the country and would be glad to send one to your location. 

None of that is cheap, but you be a wise man to do this. It would also get you going quickest and, most importantly, safely. 

It's up to you how you proceed from here. Just realize that in the real world of life, the world we all live in, you pretty much get what you pay for - and... what you don't pay for. 
In the long-term scheme it's well worth considering getting some outside, hands-on, help. IMHO.

Good luck!


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

I picked up on the light grey smoke from the exhaust.
In my working years I owned over 20 diesels and I am not a certified diesel mechanic but I have been around a few.
Since the previous owner changed the injector pump it may be possible that he managed to get trash in one of the injectors or actually got it slightly out of time.
Trash in an injector will cause the spray to be a pisser which will cause a bad firing.
For sure if the diesel pump has no slotted adjustment on the mount then timing is not in question.
Taking some time to put a wrench on each injector one at a time and loosen the fuel line nut while running, then it is possible that you may find the culprit for the smoke.
Be reminded to only loosen the nut, not remove it.
You can buy one injector and swap out each injector with the new one until you find the bad boy.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@ Melson: In your reply you mentioned splitting the panel to accommodate the three phase power.
Years ago I had several sheets of info on the use of three phase transformer connections including buck boost configurations and a multitude of different set ups.
Any number of voltages were included however we used 550 Y with 358 to ground and transformed our 120 volts.
I am thinking that it may not be such a good idea for a novice to get involved in installing a panel to accomplish use of the entire generator output.
I feel comfortable that you or I could accomplish a panel install, but not a novice. 
In the above post there was mention of 35 KW needed and I am curious why 60kwOwner would need such a load requirement unless he actually needed three phase.
After all he has 20 KW on one leg and if he needs 35 KW (145.8 amps) at full load he needs to get a new single phase generator or get a licensed electrician to install a three phase panel and get his utility reinstalled.
A 35 KW load would require at least a 45 KW generator to meet his demands using the 80% rule.
I would certainly not like to pay his power bill at 35 KW load.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

@ToolLover, I think -hmmm. You're right.
This post started-out with several questions, a total mish-mosh, really. Some things not even related. I tried to get the OP to parse the basics. Which, finally, he did. I *think*. 
As the topic morphed and twisted and KRE went nutty, I could see a novice in over his head. Still, I felt things were recoverable. 
But, now, I have to agree with both you and @iowagold: The OP is better off going fully single phase.
There's still the "issue" of the smoke - honestly, I"m not convinced there is a problem at all, or, at least, not worth getting all ga-ga over. That looks like a RoosaMaster pump, which, if so, I don't recommend fooling with. In any case, we won't know about this smoke thing until a decent load is applied. 
So guys, I'm on your side. Sometimes, I guess I feel compelled to help even though my answers only lead to more complication.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Thank you for the information, the generator was donated for a nursery project. Large load for the lights.

Definitely a novice. But I am having fun learning new things.

I hear you Melson but there just isn't the money for that at the moment.

Option A:

I will be able to get the model number it looks like so maybe I can get it rewired to single phase and leave the panel in that is already there and not have to buy a new one. Feasible? 

Option B:

I think I will order a 3 Phase Panel and balance the loads across the posts as I have seen done in a YouTube explanation. What do you guys think? Only need the single panel so I think that would be the way to go.


I could sell it and trade it in for a single phase however it is needed in that time it would take to find a buyer to sell to and getting a new one delivered and old one picked up.


Exhaust smoke has started to go away so there is that...

I also changed the oil. Pretty straight forward.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

@60kwOwner, going three phase is not only technically best, but also best from an efficiency POV. 

I suggested splitting the fuse panel to get an idea of your knowledge -which, btw, I meant to electrically split the loads between phases, not physically split; all 240vac home panels are already electrically split and wiring is no big deal; I simply wanted you to consult with a professional for safety reasons because if you did this you'd have to understand the difference between an all 120 vac panel (probably not code, either, btw) and a 120/240 panel.

Bottom line, a 3-ph panel would serve you best with regards to engine mechanical health and, in the event your business grows you'll have electrical growth options already in hand.
Remember, in life you basically get what you pay for. This includes personal knowledge and experience; everything in life has a price.
Good luck my friend. Be safe.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@60kwOwner:
In the late sixties I installed a three phase panel for my newly built welding shop that encompassed several three phase motors.
I used a salvaged fusible panel and rewired the shop myself.
Then I had to install several smaller fusible boxes to distribute the power.
The Utility: Duke Power would not give me what I had expected as I like you really was expecting them to cooperate.
They gave me 208 three phase with a high leg.
Two pole transformers were installed and Duke although they had 120 ac available would not give it to me because 120 vac could not be metered. 
Which that led me to have to transform my 120 vac.
I installed a 30 amp transformer which limited the available power and the transformer was not cheap.
That turned out to be not such a good idea.
At the time Duke had a policy that your highest energy bill would hold the user to that price for a year following.
I eventually had to make other arrangements as I realized I had made a bad decision.
I suggest that you not only do as Melson advises, you contact your utility for further info and see if they will cooperate.
I doubt they will without a complete rewire of your property, and then there is the local inspection division.
What I expect you will discover is that buying a new 60 KW generator will be far less expensive in the long run.
You might find a rewire shop that will rewire the generator for single phase.
Rewiring what you have is the best solution. Believe me!
Single phase usually requires two Horse power per KW, as that was the requirement for tractor powered generators on the farm.
I used a 70 HP Massey Ferguson to power a 30 KW PTO generator at the time.
I hope you understand what you are getting into before you make the leap.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

Ah. @ToolLover, that's an excellent heads-up. I wasn't considering the reaction of the local power supplier. But, right, depending upon local resources getting 3 ph utility power might be problematic. I can understand that a rural provider might not be amenable to work with a homeowner. 
I feel for you about the cost of that transformer. And by that time you had no good options. That sucks.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

You guys are great, I love listening to chatter like this from experts.

This property is 100% off grid, water from a well, power from generators. Local utilities are of no concern as they refuse to come this far out without a huge cost associated.

I was just thinking of getting the 3 phase panel to accept each of the three lugs on the generator so that I can balance the 208-220v 50amp breakers across them. This should achieve what I want correct? 

Like;
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008KNO7VC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It pains me to not just rewire it because I already bought a panel and installed it and I felt I did a good job at it, also wouldn't be able to take it back now that I drilled holes into it. :tango_face_wink:


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Here are some pictures of the front of the motor connections;


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

The off-grid info you just mentioned changes things. 


Option "B": If you never foresee buying and using commercial power -using only the generator for pwr- a 3 ph panel becomes a viable option. 
> Doing so allows balancing your loads evenly across all three legs (more-or-less, not critical).
> It would allow use of the generator's full, 60kw electrical rating. Which should give peace-of-mind for future, additional, and perhaps, unplanned loads.
> It would also allow the flexibility to power 240 vac loads that can tolerate the lower, three phase 208 (or so) vac. 

Remember to use the green "ground" wire to tie the bkr panel to the generator ground tie point regardless of which option you choose.

Good luck.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@ 60KWOwner:
The following info is for your use and is not meant to chastise your work.
Was your new panel install inspected? I doubt it!
I am friends with the local inspector and add to that I went to code school with the guy that wrote the code book.
I find your install to be lacking in correctness for today's code.
To start with:
I notice a No-No in the bottom right where your utility enters.
That knock out in the panel should have had a bushing in the opening to pass code.
Wires vibrate and can cause the sharp chassis to cut into the insulation. However.....
Unless you used service entrance cable then the feed should have been in 2" pipe from the meter.
Ok, I am also curious as to the size wire you have feeding from the meter?
2 aught or 4 aught aluminum? I am getting a little forgetful due to my age but I was thinking 4 aught aluminum is for 200 amps.
Did you coat the aluminum with a protectant to keep oxidation to a minimum?
Your entrance cable looks a little small for 4 aught. Old eyes though.
Now to the meat of the new panel.
The code for today is that neutrals and grounds have to be separated.
Meaning that the ground is bonded to the panel and a separate 10' copper clad ground rod driven into the ground under the meter.
Then a heavy ground is fed to the panel. I am thinking number 8 or larger.
A ground bus must be attached to the panel and not connected to the neutral.
Your picture shows two neutral buses with grounds and neutrals connected together.
To be up to code, you should mount a ground bus in the bottom and ground it to a ground rod.
Then remove the bond screw that connects the neutral to the chassis.
If you cannot remove the neutral from the chassis, then you have been sold an out of date panel.
I am surprised an inspector would pass that install.
Then of course it will work and the 1950's panels were installed in your configuration.
For the most part, you did a pretty neat job, you just needed guidance to get it correct.
You can still make the corrections with a little effort.
I edited this to add that a GFI will not work with your panel wired as you have it. Four wires are needed for a GFI to operate correctly.
GFI's are required for bath room outlets, kitchen outlets and outside outlets. Code!


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

Liabilities:
Your liability for the install.
Burn the building down and the insurance company will wear you out and not pay for the building damage.
Let some kid get electrocuted and you will face jail time as well as suit from a family member.
You best heed the code and comply.
I do no longer do wiring due to the greed of lawyers and insurance companies.
Insurance is far more than I can afford to even help a neighbor do minor work.
I am near 80 now, and I have 60 years experience. 
Even I make mistakes, and that is why I no longer do installs.
When I wanted to install my generator transfer switch I asked the inspector if I could install it myself.
He looked at me with one of those looks. 
I said I bet will pass inspection!
He said you are on. How much? Lunch I said!
Well I covered every inch over and over. 
Came time for inspection, it failed!
I had a metal 2" pipe from the meter to the panel and had left off the grounding bushing.
I hung my head and bought lunch.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Thank you for the input, I will make some changes.

It is 1 aught aluminum SER (service entrance cable)

Coated it with dielectric grease


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

60kwOwner said:


> Thank you for the input, I will make some changes.
> 
> It is 1 aught aluminum SER (service entrance cable)
> 
> Coated it with dielectric grease


Well, you are on the right track. I did not run the 1 aught alum for amperage, but it is a small part of the install, so check it and replace it if it fails to meet the 200 amp rating.
I failed to take notice that you have three 1 aught's coming into the box. That does not register as SEC (service entrance cable) that I am familiar with. 
SEC's are wrapped with a un-shielded neutral.
So how was it that you managed to get three insulated aluminum cables from a SEC?
But that solves the isolation of the neutral and it is good.
Add the ground, grounding buss and you are on the go.
If possible add an insulation bushing in that lower hole too.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Thank you for the encouragement, It is a 4 wire SEC. I cut back the un-shielded wire since I only needed 3 for the setup. Unfortunately as previously mentioned I will have to undo everything and rewire it all into a 4 wire 3 phase panel to balance the loads across all three lugs of the generator.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

Four wires plus a ground please!


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

I have the grounding clamp, just need the grounding rods.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

You said you were going to remove the panel and install a 3 phase unit. 
I would save the single phase panel and set it beside the three phase panel as a sub panel for the single phase. 
Think about it.
I might add if you cut the unshielded wire from around the SEC, just use a split bolt and reattach an cable for the neutral.
There again the wire size must be correct for the amperage you plan to be using.
And....
I have been pondering the pumps you are using.
Because you never said what kind of pumps they are, how about posting some info on them.
Voltage, single phase of three phase, capacitor start or what?
I live near Hayward Mfg. in Clemmons, NC. They make all kinds of pool pumps. 
If your generator is 208 maybe a pump change maybe a later change out if one fails.
More info please.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

Good question on the pumps, I know they can switch between 120/240. So my plan was to run them on 120 since that is consistent.

Already took down the single phase panel and wired in the 3 phase.


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## 60kwOwner (Feb 1, 2020)

I need to balance the across the lugs right so having the single phase panel also hooked up messes with that.

Everything is running well with the full load I'll have on it for now until the second greenhouse is setup.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@ IowaGold:
I went back and looked at the wiring.
Even when we use the same color wire, we always mark the neutral with white tape and yes the ground with green.
But no Ground!
An we marked three phase with the colors you mentioned.
60KW is having a difficult time for sure.
I honestly think he needs some professional help to get his project on track.
I had for the most part decided to let this post die.
I cannot for the sake of me understand how you can balance a three phase load on a single phase panel.
But maybe 60KW can eventually get it right in his own way.
In his mind he has it right, in my mind his work is scary, but you know, what ever!
Sorry 60KW, but it is what it is.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

iowagold said:


> lol tool lover
> I never understood the logic of unbalanced 3 phase... or poly phase..
> I always had it in my mind you needed balanced every thing to make it work right...
> phase angle, voltage, current... and on and on....


I want to touch on your comment, so here goes.
Last year I had a neighbor that complained that his single phase utility bill was $330.00.
I took a look at his system.
I told him I was sure I could fix it, but he would have to hire my licensed buddy.
(Joe is licensed and insured.)
Once we removed the panel cover we found a mess.
I pointed out what it would take to correct the problems and balance his load.
We worked together and it took over four hours to get the new panel installed and the loads balanced.
Long story story short, we made the extensive repairs and a few months later he said his bill dropped to $130.00.


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## KRE (Nov 29, 2011)

iowagold said:


> lol tool lover
> I guess I am spoiled...
> I always spend the extra bucks for the right color of wire...
> even if it is only 6 inches worth!! :tango_face_devil:
> ...


Please explain how your going to change, Phase Angle, with a wiring change? An FYI,...A 3 phase generator, with a 3 phase sensing voltage reg, could care less about unbalance unless it exceeds the coil stack current rating. A 12 lead machine only looking at 2 phases is a different story, but only when your using the un-sensed phase to neutral. The phase angle change with just a wiring change is interesting, as in 45+ years of EPG work that's a new one on me. However I learn stuff everyday.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

@KRE, that's a new one on me too.


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## KRE (Nov 29, 2011)

Melson said:


> @KRE , that's a new one on me too.


They only thing I know of that can be changed with wire, is if you make an inductor for paralleling major un-alike winding pitch generators, to shed some of the harmonics. This just takes a large steel rod an XXX raps of wire depending how you want to move them around. Course there is lots of applications an stuff I've never seen. I'd be happy to learn though, as the only way I know of to move the phase angle is with design changes or modifying the load. Caps can do this as well as inductors, but not wire alone, that I know of.


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## KRE (Nov 29, 2011)

iowagold said:


> thinking 3 phase motors
> forward step 1,2,3
> reverse 3,2,1
> 
> ...


 That is phase sequence, not phase angle. Phase angle is directly related to power factor, be it leading or lagging. Add---> Wiring a motor or generator correctly is simple with the legs numbered or lettered. Wait until you get one that has no numbers or letters an you have to use a battery an compass to ID the coils,...


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## KRE (Nov 29, 2011)

iowagold said:


> phase angle thinking a 3 phase electric motor.
> you have to have it wired right or in step depending on rotation.
> if it is not wired correct it can go to lock...
> 
> ...


A generator it could care less as long as you don't over load the winding, as long as that leg is being sensed, if it's a cheap single phased voltage regulator it matters little of you pulling 2 phases at once, it's only when you pulling an unsensed phase to neutral it will give voltage issue. On a 3 phase wired machine with a 3 phase voltage regulator that is not an issue, period. Most cheaper, smaller machines, less than 100kw only have a single sensed reg as std simply because it's cheaper for the end user. When machines are installed properly by EPG techs it's a moot point. Only when people that think they know what they are doing get involved does it get cloudy for the end user. Then add money being the prime factor for the end user, it can go down hill quickly, but that end result keeps winding shops an EPG tech's working so it's not a total loss.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

I, for one, appreciate KRE's concise and coherent post that speaks to the single ph-to-neutral (non) issue. 
Maybe this could be a trend?

To the OP I'd say that your original quest to use all single phase was valid. However, now that you indicate future growth possibilities I believe you're much better off going with 3 ph distribution. 
Hopefully your generator is running well. Good luck with your business endeavour.
Over-and-out.


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## jackHarrison (Feb 20, 2020)

Your instructions have been very nice to understand. Great job Melson!


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@Melson: Your advise is right on!


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