# Whole house generator install without a transfer switch



## John Jurgens (Jan 7, 2020)

Hello,
I have a 22KW General generator (70422) I am planning on using without a transfer switch. I have wired up my 200 amp panels with mechanical interrupts so the generator can't be tied to the power company. Because I am not using a transfer switch I will have to go out and manually start the generator when the power goes out. Once the generator is running and supplying power I can go back to my panels and operate the mechanical interrupts to turn off the main preakers and then turn on the generator breaker to the panel. I am havig an issue with the wiring. The main 2-2-2-4 wire is self explanitory for where it hooks up. I am having a problem with the charging for the battery. I see where the blue terminal is for fused 120 VAC for battery charger. Can I just run the 120VAC hot lead to this terminal and hook the ground and neutral wies to their respective points?
I did call General and asked about the battery charger wiring and they told me their policy is that all of their generaors needed to operate with an Automatic Transfer Switch. I suppose that would be great if I could use the switch but my circumstances will not work for the switch.
Lemmeno what you think about powering up thw battery charger without the transfer switch.
Thanks
John


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

Welcome to the forum.

That Generac G007042-2 22kW Generator is a VERY nice unit.

The 57 Page Installation Guidelines have LOTS of safety instructions, for hazard protection. My very strong suggestion is to fully comply with all the requirements.

It sounds like the existing installation has a manual transfer switch instead of an automatic transfer switch. Is that correct?

If correct, then the wiring could be implemented the same, it just wouldn't transfer as described.

The previously linked wiring diagram, looks like the battery charger is part of the Main Controller board. If correct, then city power would be charging the 12VDC battery when available and the generator would be charging during operation.


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## John Jurgens (Jan 7, 2020)

Wingless,
I looked throught the manual and the warnings. They all make sense and I am not violating any of them.
I do not have a transfer switch. I have two 200 amp panels that are fitted with a mechanical interlock. The generator enters the box through a 100 amp breaker that is controlled by the interlock. The main breaker OR the 100 amp breaker can be on but the interlock will not allow both. I installed this circuit with an electrical permit.
I am looking for some help wiring up the battery charger. Since I am not using the ATS I will have to wire in some source of 120VAC to run the battery charger. I think the fix is to laythe hot wire on the blue T1 block and then run the neutral and ground to the neutral bar. Look on page 30 of the manual. I am asking if anyone has done this. Thanks
John


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

According to the previously-linked manual and the wiring diagram, on the Sense Wire Terminal Block, the blue T1 120VAC LOAD SUPPLY is an input to the Main Controller Board. It is labelled: "Fused 120VAC for battery charger". The N1 and the N2 240VAC Utility Sense are also inputs to the Main Controller Board.

As previously stated, it looks like the battery charger is on that Main Controller Board.

My read on those instructions are to connect that Blue T1 to a breaker on the main circuit panel, to provide street power to the generator Main Controller Board, for it to power the battery charger.

Neutral and ground already exist from the rest of the generator wiring.


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## John Jurgens (Jan 7, 2020)

Wingless,
Are you saying the battery charger circuit resides in the Transfer switch or in the Generator? I don't see what you are seeing in the manual. If the charging circuit is in the generator wouldn't it need the 120 VAC on T1 to power it up? If the battery circuit is in the ATS why would the 120 VAC need to come over from the generator? Wouldn't it come from the ATS? 
I have to figure this out so Idon't hurt the circutry and I really don't want to but a transfer switch I can't use.
Thanks
John


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

The manual does not define the battery charger location.

My analysis of the documentation leads me to conclude that the Blue T1 120VAC feed from the main panel (street power) is used as the power source for the generator's Main Controller Board battery charger, residing as part of that Main Controller Board.

Examine page 5 of 6 of the wiring diagram. The 12VDC battery is in the lower left corner. The generator Main Controller Board is in the center. That board is connected to the battery minus terminal with the 0 wire and to the battery plus terminal with the 13 wire. IMO, the battery charger HAS to be on that generator Main Controller Board.

My read of that documentation is to provide a 120VAC from the main circuit panel, either a 15A or a 20A properly-wired circuit would be fine.

The only thing that jumps out to me as a concern are the two yellow N1 and N2 utility sense wires. My read is those get wired to the street side of the transfer switch, to provide utility sense for the generator. How is fault protection provided to those two wires? Do those two wires require a small circuit breaker box to provide over current protection on those two sense wires?

WRT the ATS, the generator Main Controller Board has a three wire output connection w/ the 0 wire, 12VDC ground, the 194 wire, a +12VDC connection and the 23 wire, for the transfer actuation control.

IMO and ATS is not required, but the generator logic must somehow be configured for a manual mechanical interlock transfer, instead of the intended automated transfer.


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## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

OK, I'm a lazy old man and before I tried to work around the built in logic to use the device in a way it wasn't intended, I'd just ignore it. Get a battery charger/maintainer and connect to the battery. Disconnect the wiring from the charger in the unit. Feed the charger with 120 volts, preferably from a dedicated breaker. Verify that you can start and stop the unit. The battery is kept charged, you can go out and start it. This may allow you to "imagineer" around the base design. By not feeding the generator with a constant 120VAC the automatic exercise, etc. won't be enabled, it'll just sit there in off until you start it-provided Generac doesn't have any more logic surprises built in. 

Here's a charger/maintainer I grabbed at random at Amazon, there's tons of them out there.

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS1-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W46BX31/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=12V+battery+charger+and+maintainer&qid=1578535780&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyMEoxSURLVzkxQlY0JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjExODczVk5HTFRIUU5HN0RYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NDQxNjMzTDUxUDdGU1ExUEdSJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Good luck


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

Without looking at the drawings (disclaimer)... Usually, the sense leads come from a commercial-side breaker or fuse panel.

As for the engine battery, I agree with @exmar in that you're over thinking it. I believe a low-cost, regulated charger could be directly attached without causing a problem. Basically, it would be the same as if you needed to 'jump start' it. 
Just make sure the charger has some sort of built-in regulation / overcharge protection.


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

According to the previously linked Owner's Manual, page 15 shows operation of the front panel AUTO / OFF / MANUAL control.

That operates just as expected.

Pressing the OFF button has this result: "Shuts down engine and prevents automatic operation of unit."

That is probably the best option for a system w/ a manual mechanical interlock transfer switch.

The only other point is to ensure manual periodic operation for system maintenance.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

The manual system is OK, but can you wife operate the necessary devises when you are away?


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## John Jurgens (Jan 7, 2020)

Thanks for the replies, I'm pretty sure the battery charger circuit just needs 120VAC on the blue T1 terminal. I don't see where the sense lines will be helpful since I don't have an ATS so I don't see why to do anything with them. I am talking with General and trying to pin them down on wiring the generator for use without the ATS. Once I get them to give me the final word I'll let you know.
John


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

I agree a manual system is the best...
most large generators are exorcised to death!!
you can cut to the chase by testing when you have time maybe once a month or every 3 months..

and after market battery maintainer works well on these gen sets.
make sure you use an auto reset breaker on the 12 volt maintainer!!
I use the Schumacher SC1300 1.5A 12V Fully Automatic Battery Maintainer 
those work perfect on all equipment and generators!!
just run a ac cord from your house to this charger...
then it is isolated!!
and as long as you use lets say a 5 amp automatic breaker on the red wire it will protect the charger during start.
also use an agm or gel battery!!

did you get the optional cold weather kit for the generator??
if not yet it is a good idea!!


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## Danlawnllc (Jan 25, 2020)

i did exactly this, it workes great. however after a dead battery i am now getting an error code "direct power disconnected" with no start. if anyone has any input on this it would be greatly appreciated.


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## John Jurgens (Jan 7, 2020)

Shouldn't be a problem. Thanks


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

Danlawnllc said:


> i did exactly this, it workes great. however after a dead battery i am now getting an error code "direct power disconnected" with no start. if anyone has any input on this it would be greatly appreciated.


humm dan..
why did the battery go dead after the external charger??
bad battery???
or did not have the charger in a good spot to get power???
too small of charger??

that brings up a good point.. and a thing to check!!
some of these units use 12 volt for the electronics boards... relays etc.
make sure you check the current demand for the unit while it is in sleep mode...
some can be 2 amps or more!!
depends on the gen mfg and the board they use...
and easy to check!! use a dc clamp current meter!!

and yes some of these also have a small 3 volt memory battery that needs to be replaced every 4-6 years..
kinda like they do on lap tops and other computers.


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## KTNC (11 mo ago)

John Jurgens said:


> Thanks for the replies, I'm pretty sure the battery charger circuit just needs 120VAC on the blue T1 terminal. I don't see where the sense lines will be helpful since I don't have an ATS so I don't see why to do anything with them. I am talking with General and trying to pin them down on wiring the generator for use without the ATS. Once I get them to give me the final word I'll let you know.
> John


Hi John:

Two years later and I'm thinking about doing the same thing: using a Generac generator with a manual interlock and no automatic transfer switch.

Did you proceed with your plan of hooking up 120VAC to the T1 terminal? If so, how did that work out? Are there any other things I need to know?

regards, Kerry


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

It’s an old thread, and havnt seen him since. 120v to T1 will power the battery charger.


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## Jdodson33 (11 mo ago)

drmerdp said:


> It’s an old thread, and havnt seen him since. 120v to T1 will power the battery charger.


Question. If hot wire goes to the T1, do you use the Neutral wire and the ground wire
thanks


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## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

Jdodson33 said:


> Question. If hot wire goes to the T1, do you use the Neutral wire and the ground wire
> thanks


Never join a neutral and ground together for a circuit.
Ground and neutral wire is only join inside the main distribution panel, so only one interconnection for the entire building for every service.

Put the ground wire on the metal frame, a ground wire is attached in case current carrying wires touch parts of a device that can conduct current.

You know arc fault breakers, detect neutral to ground connections and shut down power.
They ALSO detect shared neutrals, as in 2 breakers send power to individual circuits but some idiot wannabe electrician far away joins the individual circuits neutrals together somewhere else.
I found that out the hard way after a non electrician rewired the entire kitchen redo his own special way. Instantly blows GFCI breakers too.

People doing electric work who dont have a clue. When I found out was angry but it was too late, was for fixing up and selling FIL house as part of wife's inheritance. Left me with a mess of confusion. I could never figure out where he screwed up. Ended up having to put GFCI outlets everywhere for the kitchen-dining room vs just one in the distribution panel.


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## scotiaair (11 mo ago)

Hi i'm in the same boat, I don't have transfer switch, I want to hook up the charging circuit and be able to operate generator from inside. Did connecting T1 to to 120v only work? From wiring dirgram I assumed the netrual was to be tied into ground as shown, wouldn't charger need netural (ground) to complete circuit? Also to start generator I was thinking i would bring 240v to N1 & N2 and install a switch on one hot line to interupt 240 which should tell generator to start? any help is appericated


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## KTNC (11 mo ago)

scotiaair said:


> Hi i'm in the same boat, I don't have transfer switch, I want to hook up the charging circuit and be able to operate generator from inside. Did connecting T1 to to 120v only work? From wiring dirgram I assumed the netrual was to be tied into ground as shown, wouldn't charger need netural (ground) to complete circuit? Also to start generator I was thinking i would bring 240v to N1 & N2 and install a switch on one hot line to interupt 240 which should tell generator to start? any help is appericated


Hello scotiaar:

I can't tell you if your scheme or the simpler one I proposed would work but I can let you know that I've corresponded with Generac's customer support department about it. Their basic message was that if I chose to install the Generac using an interlock and not a transfer switch I would compromise the warranty. I called a local dealer to discuss it and they said if I installed it with an interlock and no transfer switch and then needed a repair they would submit it to Generac but it's possible that Generac would deny coverage since it's not an approved installation. In such a case, I'd have to pay for the repairs myself.

If you go ahead with this please report back here as it will help the next guy.

regards, Kerry


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