# Hard start on NG



## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

I recently converted a Westinghouse 12000df to NG. 3/4 pipe with large feed line 12 ft from gas line. The first time I used it it fired up nicely after 2 electric start pulls and I set the power block screw at 60.5 hz. Ran smooth. Just fired it up the the other day and it wouldn't run. Very loud knocking sound from starter. Switched to gasoline no problem or loud knock from starter ran perfect. Adjusted the power block screw out almost completely and it ran on NG at 60.5hz. However when it starts on NG sounds like your hitting starter with a hammer. This never occurred before only 1 hour run time total on new Gen. Any ideas?


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

3/4 pipe and 12ft from the gas meter or just an available gas line outside of the house?

What company did you use for your conversion kit? 

Did you tighten the gap on your spark plug to around ~.020”. Better yet replace it with an iridium plug with a ~.025” gap.

If the load block is way off in either direction starting will be tough. Are you priming the generator with fuel by pressing the button on the back of the regulator before starting?


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## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

This Gen doesn't need to add a NG reg. It comes with the unit, you just bypass the propane reg and add correct fittings to Regulator. It does not have a primer button. (conversion of this model on YouTube, pretty slick). I bought the block from Nash Fuel. The gas line that I use for the Gen is approx 30 ft. from my meter. It's 3/4 and also runs my pool heater which is 400,000 BTU heater. I do not run the pool heater while running the Gen. I know I have enough juice because it runs the pool heater just fine. I have a rubberized 1 inch OD line that is 12 ft to connect from there to my Get. Probably total of 45 ft. Of added gas line from meter to Gen. I will adjust gap on plugs and try the iridium. What's the benefit? I have heard NG runs hotter. Thanks for input.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

…The numbers don’t quite add up. Your 400,000 btu pool heater runs off a 30ft long 3/4” pipe?! 1-1/4“ pipe is the correct size if you are on the standard 7inHG outlet pressure. If that leg is 2psig that’s a different story. I think pictures are necessary to see how you have things configured.

Not having a primer will always make it more difficult to start. Unable to easily purge air from the hose, or get a fat enough mixture to fire easily. It looks like that gen has a garret KN demand regulator already. If it is, it would be an apples to apples swap to replace it with one that has a primer. 

Natural gas does not burn hotter. At stoichiometric fuel ratios it’s cooler, only at overly rich ratios does it burn hotter. Same goes for propane.

Iridium plugs produce a hotter less erratic spark which does a great job igniting gaseous fuels with extremely high octane ratings. Especially when the engines cold.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

ok....
what pressure is the NG on the gas line?
3/4 is way too small for standard 6-10 in/h2o pressure at 400k btu...
is the NG line pressure 2-10 psi?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

lol dr great minds think alike!


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## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

drmerdp said:


> …The numbers don’t quite add up. Your 400,000 btu pool heater runs off a 30ft long 3/4” pipe?! 1-1/4“ pipe is the correct size if you are on the standard 7inHG outlet pressure. If that leg is 2psig that’s a different story. I think pictures are necessary to see how you have things configured.
> 
> Not having a primer will always make it more difficult to start. Unable to easily purge air from the hose, or get a fat enough mixture to fire easily. It looks like that gen has a garret KN demand regulator already. If it is, it would be an apples to apples swap to replace it with one that has a primer.
> 
> ...


I didn't explain the gas line correctly. The line that exits the ground at the pool heater is 1.5 in. Reduces to 3/4 at inlet of heater.


drmerdp said:


> …The numbers don’t quite add up. Your 400,000 btu pool heater runs off a 30ft long 3/4” pipe?! 1-1/4“ pipe is the correct size if you are on the standard 7inHG outlet pressure. If that leg is 2psig that’s a different story. I think pictures are necessary to see how you have things configured.
> 
> Not having a primer will always make it more difficult to start. Unable to easily purge air from the hose, or get a fat enough mixture to fire easily. It looks like that gen has a garret KN demand regulator already. If it is, it would be an apples to apples swap to replace it with one that has a primer.
> 
> ...





iowagold said:


> ok....
> what pressure is the NG on the gas line?
> 3/4 is way too small for standard 6-10 in/h2o pressure at 400k btu...
> is the NG line pressure 2-10 psi?
> [/QUOTE





iowagold said:


> ok....
> what pressure is the NG on the gas line?
> 3/4 is way too small for standard 6-10 in/h2o pressure at 400k btu...
> is the NG line pressure 2-10 psi?


Not sure what the pressure is. Line from meter is 1.5 - 30 ft. Pool heater. Reduces to 3/4 yo pool heater inlet. "T" was installed to feed Gen. It starts and runs. Just didn't make such loud start noise before and I had to adjust the load block screw out almost entirely to get it to run. I had it adjusted and set from the previous start up a month ago. It was a completely different experience.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

Antivenon said:


> I didn't explain the gas line correctly. The line that exits the ground at the pool heater is 1.5 in. Reduces to 3/4 at inlet of heater.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what the pressure is. Line from meter is 1.5 - 30 ft. Pool heater. Reduces to 3/4 yo pool heater inlet. "T" was installed to feed Gen. It starts and runs. Just didn't make such loud start noise before and I had to adjust the load block screw out almost entirely to get it to run. I had it adjusted and set from the previous start up a month ago. It was a completely different experience.


change the T to be at the 1-1/4 with a ball valve for each item .
also what is the pressure on the line?
hummm'
this is a V twin engine...
it may need a larger feed line from the pipe as well as 3/4 coupler
and it should have dual demand regulators one for each cyl with dual load blocks.
at least to be perfect on the afr and demand at the right time.

so how is it with out the load block?
and what size of hose and quick couplers are you using?


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

That 3/4" valve to the gen isn't a full bore valve, so that could be a choke point. I agree that swapping the regulator on the gen to one with a primer should help, along with an iridium plug gapped down a bit.


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## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

J


Browse Deweb said:


> That 3/4" valve to the gen isn't a full bore valve, so that could be a choke point. I agree that swapping the regulator on the gen to one with a primer should help, along with an iridium plug gapped down a bit.


I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the advice!


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## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

Antivenon said:


> J
> 
> I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the advice!


Any thoughts on where I can get a full bore valve?


iowagold said:


> change the T to be at the 1-1/4 with a ball valve for each item .
> also what is the pressure on the line?
> hummm'
> this is a V twin engine...
> ...


Not sure how I could get 2 regs on each cylinder. There is just one fuel line feeding the carb. Followed this video conversion.
Youtube.com/watch?tv=CleLnyyoYPM


iowagold said:


> change the T to be at the 1-1/4 with a ball valve for each item .
> also what is the pressure on the line?
> hummm'
> this is a V twin engine...
> ...


Youtube.com/watch?tv=CleLnyyoYPM 
I followed this example same vtwin as Westinghouse.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

try this for 



the video


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

well....
hummmm
i still think it is under sized on the NG setup.
it all has to do with the cfm on the engine...
yea they have a special setup on the oem carb...
i would change out the demand regulator to the style with a primer.
and large orifice on the inlet.
pm if you need links.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Antivenon said:


> Any thoughts on where I can get a full bore valve?











Watts 3/4 in. Brass FIP x FIP Full Port Threaded Ball Valve 3/4 LFFBV-3C - The Home Depot


This 3/4 in. 2-piece full port lead free ball valve is used in residential and commercial potable water applications, suitable for a full range of liquids and gases. This valve features a lead free brass



www.homedepot.com





By the looks of it you should have enough gas volume. Maybe post pics of the generator and the gas hose for good measure. 12’ of hose and no primer will mean a bunch more cranking before it starts.

I think the knocking sound you are hearing while attempting to start on NG are moments of adequate fuel. The engine kicks over and the overrun clutch on the starter backs off but the engine doesn’t actually start and the starter sharply reengages again.

I would Install an iridium plug and Garret KN with primer, and full bore valve.


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## email4eric (Dec 23, 2018)

I converted a Honda eu6500is originally to NG and now propane. With NG, I ran 1-1/4 in pipe 30 ft to the 1 inch full bore ball valve. Then I went with 1 in hose with quick connects for the 30 ft run to the generator. That's what the spec tables showed would be the desired hose size for that run and BTU demand. 

I now have a ball valve and quick connect off of the step down regulator from the propane line stub coming from the tank. Then through my 30 ft 1 inch hose to the genset.

I went with the USCarb Motorsnorkle kit which has a primer. If I don't prime, it takes forever for the fuel to reach the generator as there is no place for the fuel to go. The primer opens the line and allows the contents of your hose to empty of air and be replaced by fuel. If I press and hold the primer button, it takes about 30 seconds for the fuel to purge the line of air and the generator starts right up after. I just wait until I can smell propane at the diaphragm and then know it's time to start.

Concur on the iridium plug (real NGK) and tighter gap.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

email4eric said:


> I converted a Honda eu6500is originally to NG and now propane. With NG, I ran 1-1/4 in pipe 30 ft to the 1 inch full bore ball valve. Then I went with 1 in hose with quick connects for the 30 ft run to the generator. That's what the spec tables showed would be the desired hose size for that run and BTU demand.
> 
> I now have a ball valve and quick connect off of the step down regulator from the propane line stub coming from the tank. Then through my 30 ft 1 inch hose to the genset.
> 
> ...


Actually, you are technically oversized for a NG feed for an appliance with ~120,000-130,000 btuH demand. But ALWAYS better to be bigger.

Why the switch to propane? different house? Technically you can use up to 30ft 1/2“ hose on propane.

I’m going to be running a NG feed for my parents generator. 1” quick disconnects have skyrocketed in the past year. $250 a set.


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## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

I have the same generator wgen12000df and converted to natural gas the same way. The only thing that wouldn't work for me was the load block. It would start but when I put a load on it would bog down. It wasn't letting enough fuel in. I had to switch to this:









Everbilt 1/2 in. Barb x 3/8 in. MIP Brass Adapter Fitting 800199 - The Home Depot


These hose barbs are made of durable, corrosion resistant and lead-free brass while conforming to NSF 61 and 372 and are registered in Mass. They have several barbs to hold when inserted into tubing. Best for use with plastic, vinyl or rubber tubing. Pair with a hose clamp for a more secure fit.



www.homedepot.com





As soon as I swapped the load block for that open orifice fitting, everything ran perfectly and I've had to use it a few times already without a problem and once overnight. I am using a full port ball valve however my quick connects are not the open orifice type, they have the bar going through the middle of the male connector and it still runs fine and after a couple hours I have checked the plugs and the fuel is burning perfectly, not too rich, not too lean. I am using ngk iridium plugs gapped at .025


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## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

drmerdp said:


> Actually, you are technically oversized for a NG feed for an appliance with ~120,000-130,000 btuH demand. But ALWAYS better to be bigger.
> 
> Why the switch to propane? different house? Technically you can use up to 30ft 1/2“ hose on propane.
> 
> I’m going to be running a NG feed for my parents generator. 1” quick disconnects have skyrocketed in the past year. $250 a set.


So pricey, how about using a cheap gas union instead?
Your really paying up for the convenience factor there.
WHY?
You plan to move the gen set daily?


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## Antivenon (12 mo ago)

ajnuzzi said:


> I have the same generator wgen12000df and converted to natural gas the same way. The only thing that wouldn't work for me was the load block. It would start but when I put a load on it would bog down. It wasn't letting enough fuel in. I had to switch to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have had the same problem. Starts and runs fine. When I try to run my 5 ton AC unit it bogs big time and won't start the AC unit. Does just fine on gasoline, slight hiccup then smooth as silk. I have the power block practically run all the way out. Seems like with that fitting you described it would run the same without it. Do you have it just simply screwed in to the top of the regulator? I'll give the fitting a shot.


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## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

Antivenon said:


> I have had the same problem. Starts and runs fine. When I try to run my 5 ton AC unit it bogs big time and won't start the AC unit. Does just fine on gasoline, slight hiccup then smooth as silk. I have the power block practically run all the way out. Seems like with that fitting you described it would run the same without it. Do you have it just simply screwed in to the top of the regulator? I'll give the fitting a shot.


yup that's it. As soon as I ditched the load block and went with that straight fitting my wgen12000 runs just as good on NG as gasoline!


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## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

Antivenon said:


> I have had the same problem. Starts and runs fine. When I try to run my 5 ton AC unit it bogs big time and won't start the AC unit. Does just fine on gasoline, slight hiccup then smooth as silk. I have the power block practically run all the way out. Seems like with that fitting you described it would run the same without it. Do you have it just simply screwed in to the top of the regulator? I'll give the fitting a shot.


Also the fitting only costs $5 - if it doesn't work it's not even worth the gas to drive back to home depot to return! I'm pretty sure that will work for you though


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## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

https://www.lowes.com/pd/NIBCO-1-in-Copper-Slip-Union-Fittings/3460540?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-plb-_-bng-_-LIA_PLB_142_Pipe-Fittings-_-3460540-_-Local-_-0-_-0&gclid=61ee91bf987016f2d290f3ee148f8e44&gclsrc=3p.ds&ds_rl=1286981&msclkid=61ee91bf987016f2d290f3ee148f8e44


Actually was thinking like these unions. Smaller is cheaper, and $16 is good price. I have two 3/4" unused copper unions.
Use plumber solder and attach a hose nipple to your rubber hose, the union lets you take it apart. Although I bet an approved large diameter hose is pricey.


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## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

sdowney717 said:


> https://www.lowes.com/pd/NIBCO-1-in-Copper-Slip-Union-Fittings/3460540?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-plb-_-bng-_-LIA_PLB_142_Pipe-Fittings-_-3460540-_-Local-_-0-_-0&gclid=61ee91bf987016f2d290f3ee148f8e44&gclsrc=3p.ds&ds_rl=1286981&msclkid=61ee91bf987016f2d290f3ee148f8e44
> 
> 
> Actually was thinking like these unions. Smaller is cheaper, and $16 is good price. I have two 3/4" unused copper unions.
> ...


I'm not positive but I think those are for water. One thing I wouldn't mess around with is gas connections/hoses to save a few dollars


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## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

ajnuzzi said:


> I'm not positive but I think those are for water. One thing I wouldn't mess around with is gas connections/hoses to save a few dollars


Water pressure is much much very much higher than the gas pressure coming from the meter.
Copper pipe will not leak gas.
And your already mentioning using a brass hose nipple in your post.
My comment is really about not paying the hundreds of dollars for a quick gas disconnect someone else mentions in this thread.
But I honestly dont know how much the rubber hoses are though.


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## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

__





1 x 2-11/100 in. FNPT 125# Schedule 40 Standard Global Brass Union - XNL187-16 - Ferguson


1 x 2-11/100 in. FNPT 125# Schedule 40 Standard Global Brass Union (XNL187-16) at Ferguson. Nobody expects more from us than we do. ®




www.ferguson.com




Can also get a totally brass threaded on both ends union for more money.
And some where I have a bronze hose union, so each end of the union has barbed fittings for a hose, no NPT female or male.
Of course none of these are as convenient as clicking a quick disconnect.
Example


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## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

Antivenon said:


> I have had the same problem. Starts and runs fine. When I try to run my 5 ton AC unit it bogs big time and won't start the AC unit. Does just fine on gasoline, slight hiccup then smooth as silk. I have the power block practically run all the way out. Seems like with that fitting you described it would run the same without it. Do you have it just simply screwed in to the top of the regulator? I'll give the fitting a shot.


so what's the verdict? Did that new fitting help?


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## anderep (9 mo ago)

don't you need a different metering valve for NG, then propane. more complicated then just plumbing NG to the unit!


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