# Wiring Advice Needed



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi guys. I need a bit of advice on wiring a pair of T8 tube fixtures in a garage. The garage has a 4-bulb fixture already, but the lady wants more light. I suggested installing two additional 2-tube T8 fixtures on either side of the existing light. I suspect that the existing light has some Romex wiring running to it from the switch. I was trying to figure out wiring to provide power to two additional fixtures. They can all run from the same switch. There's no need for multiple switches. Could I just tap into the existing Romex wiring? Do they make a splitter or something to splice into what's already there? Would that be okay? 

I was trying to come up with some solutions for the lady.


----------



## PapaWhisky (Dec 2, 2021)

Switch to LED and she'll have enough light to do open heart surgery, should she choose ...


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

PapaWhisky said:


> Switch to LED and she'll have enough light to do open heart surgery, should she choose ...


I had thought about that but was looking for a way to use the lighting she already has in place. Especially since the fixture already has power, I was hoping to splice into that. I had to order a new ballast for the existing fixture and I'm waiting for it to come in.


----------



## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

Repairing a two tube or four tube fixture is far above the cost of LED replacements, unless it is a fixture in an interior setting that creates a finish problem.
People fail to replace the tubes when they blacken on the ends and that leads to ballast failure.
In the garage, dropping the old one down and putting up several Leds is more cost effective and easier.
Add to that the power company will give allowances and possibly there are tax allowances.


----------



## JRHill (Nov 19, 2020)

Upgrade to LED.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Even with an LED upgrade, I'm still going to need to power it. Can I splice into the Romex for multiple fixtures using the same switch? I'm not sure why I couldn't, but I wanted to be sure.


----------



## Ground Fault (Jun 9, 2020)

Swamp, what they said. I let an electrician talk me out of LED lighting and into T8's back in 2017 for my shop. I have six six-tube lights out there and two tubes in three of the fixtures have already given up the ghost. They are 16 feet up, too high to be always changing never-ending bad tubes. I don't own a way to get that high. So I bought six LED fixtures to replace them with. 32,800 lumens per fixture. Jury-wired one of them just to see how it lit. Like the Burning Bush in there with just that one. I'm waiting to borrow a lift to install them. The beams of light that'll pour out the doors will look like I've storing meta-material when done. Replace those two you have with two of higher intensity LEDs and don't look back.


----------



## JRHill (Nov 19, 2020)

You should go get a few 4' LED fixtures. If you have any questions after that please come back. And best to not ask the electrician - you already know what input you will get.

I almost wonder if this was a "come on"....


----------



## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> Even with an LED upgrade, I'm still going to need to power it. Can I splice into the Romex for multiple fixtures using the same switch? I'm not sure why I couldn't, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, you can. The wiring for the existing fixture may vary but can be used to feed additional fixtures.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

i would just place outlets up there like they do for industrial.
then you can swap out a fixture fast on the fly.

if you use led you can get more fixtures for less power consumed.
and they fire full bright in the cold too!

they have been having sales here for $10.00 usd you get a strip light with 5000 lumen's.
and they have daisy chain cords included for up to 10 in a row.
i have 2 on the front porch.
ultra bright!


----------



## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

I replaced six 150W incandescent shed light fixtures with these 15,000 lumen, 50,000 hour LED panels for $11.69 each delivered. The difference is amazing, and the power consumption is a tiny fraction...


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> i would just place outlets up there like they do for industrial.
> then you can swap out a fixture fast on the fly.
> 
> if you use led you can get more fixtures for less power consumed.
> ...


That was an idea I was considering as well. In my kitchen, I have one 8' and one 4' florescent tube fixture above the cabinets. They came with bare-wire leads. I attached a male power plug to both and plugged them into a power strip that I attached to the inside of one of the cabinets. It works fine. I was considering that I could simply do that for any additional lighting in the garage. Now the lady is unsure if she still wants to add additional lights. Good times. The existing fixture provides plenty of light, but you guys know how that goes. I may or may not end up at Home Depot sometime today.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

tabora said:


> I replaced six 150W incandescent shed light fixtures with these 15,000 lumen, 50,000 hour LED panels for $11.69 each delivered. The difference is amazing, and the power consumption is a tiny fraction...


That looks pretty cool. I could see being able to use something like that in the attic. That would probably be the only fixture that I have that would fit something that big.


----------



## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> That would probably be the only fixture that I have that would fit something that big.


They're not actually all that big and you can aim the panels independently. I have a horizontally mounted socket mounted on a collar tie in my little shed at the lake and I put one of these there with one panel aimed straight down by the entry door and the other three angled sideways to light up the entire rest of the shed.


----------



## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

tabora said:


> They're not actually all that big and you can aim the panels independently. I have a horizontally mounted socket mounted on a collar tie in my little shed at the lake and I put one of these there with one panel aimed straight down by the entry door and the other three angled sideways to light up the entire rest of the shed.


Interesting. How about a manufacturer name or where you purchased? Thanks.


----------



## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

exmar said:


> Interesting. How about a manufacturer name or where you purchased? Thanks.


The seller I purchased from is all out, but here's something similar: 100W 150W LED Garage Light Bulb Deformable Ceiling Fixture Lights Workshop Lamp | eBay

Or this 2-pack: https://www.amazon.com/ISKYDRAW-Def...=1638764931&sr=8-58&qty=2&psc=1&selectObb=new


----------



## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

tabora said:


> The seller I purchased from is all out, but here's something similar: 100W 150W LED Garage Light Bulb Deformable Ceiling Fixture Lights Workshop Lamp | eBay


Thanks, I've got four foot fluorescents in barn and a couple need new bulbs, think I'll order a couple of these.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

So, we did end up going to the Home Depot to pick up some project items. As advised, we went with two 4-foot LED garage fixtures. I didn't get to work on that project because we got a late start and we had some other projects we had to do. I simply ran out of time. We have 12" florescent tube fixtures under the cabinets in the kitchen. The ballast on one of them finally went out. The fixtures are about 14 years old, so I wasn't surprised to see the first one of them die off. I replaced it with a Feit LED under-counter fixture. It's very bright. I have a feeling I'm going to have to replace the other two now. I replaced the ballast in the existing fixture in the garage and got it working again. I think the light switch is bad, though. It's one of those motion sensor three-way light switches. When the switch is set to "auto" it doesn't fully turn the fixture off like it's supposed to. The lights are dim, but still on. It didn't used to do that. I had thought it was the ballast going bad that was causing that, but with the new ballast, it's still doing it. I ordered a new switch and we'll see if that solves the problem.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

if it is an all electronic sensor and electronic switch it could have a bad junction.
some of the better units have a relay on board.

what brand is the motion wall switch?


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> if it is an all electronic sensor and electronic switch it could have a bad junction.
> some of the better units have a relay on board.
> 
> what brand is the motion wall switch?


It looks like it's made by Topgreener, but I don't know for sure. I'd have to pull it out of the wall and look at it. The replacement I ordered is this and it looks mostly identical to what's there now:

Topgreener

ETA: I just checked, looks like it uses a relay.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

*i prefer name brand like
Leviton ODS10-IDW Decora 120/277-Volt Wall Switch Occupancy Sensor, White 

yea way more bucks....
but they work ok.

and cool on the relay style.
about the only thing to go bad is the relay from rare lightning.
and if you have the whole house protection,
that is an almost ultra rare failure.
like a direct hit on the house.

hummm is there a grounding issue in the design of the switch?
maybe they have a by pass resister over the relay contacts to save the contacts...
or a shorted or leaky cap.

carefully
probe the switches output wire for 60 volts ac or dc or more.
i think that is the min to partial fire the neon in a short tube.
some take a bit more in the short tubes.
but it is under 90 vac.

try one of the leviton units.
if you buy it at a home depot or menards they will return it if it does not work right.
just keep your receipt.

*


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I haven't had a chance to pull the old switch from the wall. It's 14 years old, so my guess is it's simply time to replace it. I like that the current switch has an override to leave the light on. That way, you're not having the light constantly turning off if you stop moving.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

lol
or set to the short sense "disco mode"
lol!


----------



## macdenewf (Sep 3, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Hi guys. I need a bit of advice on wiring a pair of T8 tube fixtures in a garage. The garage has a 4-bulb fixture already, but the lady wants more light. I suggested installing two additional 2-tube T8 fixtures on either side of the existing light. I suspect that the existing light has some Romex wiring running to it from the switch. I was trying to figure out wiring to provide power to two additional fixtures. They can all run from the same switch. There's no need for multiple switches. Could I just tap into the existing Romex wiring? Do they make a splitter or something to splice into what's already there? Would that be okay?
> 
> I was trying to come up with some solutions for the lady.


From an electrical code perspective, you’re permitted a specific combination of lights and outlets, with the intention that when they are all on you don’t overload the 15 amp breaker. And as home builders are not ones to waste money they tend to maximize the number of lights and outlets so they don’t have to install extra breakers or run extra copper. So it’s unlikely that you have “spare capacity “ and adding extra devices would “technically “ be over code. However, the codes haven’t been updated to reflect that LED lights burn 1/5th of the power of an incandescent ( what the code was built on) and practically speaking if you switch those lights to LED lights you can add 4 times the number of lights and not overload the breaker. So. Yes you can practically add more lights. Absolutely. From a wiring perspective, as long as you can fish a wire from the existing octagon box to your new locations then there is no practical reason you can’t add more fixtures…..and not see the wires. Now. Question is if you have access above the ceiling. 
If not. Tou’ll
Want to run the extra fixtures parallel to the roof joist fishing a wire parallel to the roof joist is simple. And if you have access above your garage, fishing wires anywhere in the garage ceiling is easy.

Your switch and light will be wired in one of two ways. Either power at the switch or power at the fixture but regardless. As long as you understand how the wiring is done …it’s just a matter of running the extra wires from the existing light fixture to the new ones then wiring it properly so all the fixtures are in parallel and each getting the full
120v. 
Personally speaking (not a recommendation as you may be violating code ) what you’re asking is a) easy and b) provided you use LEDs just as safe as the power draw from 3 led fixtures is no more than one incandescent. 
but it’s a decision you need to make for yourself.
What you have to consider is when you sell your house and someone decides to put in florescents or incandescent potentially overloading the breaker so I’d recommend buying a dedicated LEd light that doesn’t give the option to install anything other than the LED light. With LED tube lights you have a couple of options. Buy an LED tube which is a drop in replacement for an flourscent tube or buy an led fixture which doesn’t give you any option to change the bulb ( tube). You can get them on line for 30 t
40 dollars a fixture. 
hope that helps. 
cheers.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea most folks give me a hard time when i spec out a job with 12/2 with ground and 20 amps for lights....
until they start to add in all of the lights!
most jobs have a way of growing!
lol!
you led is the way to go these days, and make sure to use name brand or a company that uses quality parts.


----------



## somedumbguy (Sep 17, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> Could I just tap into the existing Romex wiring? Do they make a splitter or something to splice into what's already there? Would that be okay?


Not sure what you mean by a splitter or splice. With house wiring, any splicing/connections need to be made within an "approved" wiring box, like the switchbox or the box/enclosure for the light fixture. Are you are thinking about tapping into the romex along its run using the kind of splices/splitters sold for tapping into car wiring under the dash? You can't do that. All house wire splicing must be inside boxes, and the boxes must be covered, but accessible. Unless you are tapping into the boxes that are already there, you will need to cut the romex and add a new box, (or two if there is not enough slack in the existing romex) and make splices in those boxes. These new boxes cannot be buried inside the sheetrock; they must be accessible. (Not a problem if the garage is not finished).


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Okay, I've had a chance to get back to my girlfriend's house and scope out the situation. I've run into some snags, that's for sure. 

I decided to get the new switch working first, before trying anything else. If problems came up, I wanted as few variables involved as possible. I pulled out the old switch. Iowa, it's a switch made by "Cooper." The back of the switch has 4 wires, and all of them were in use. There wires were colored red, black, brown, and green. The green was the ground wire and connected to a bare copper wire. The brown and black wires were connected to different black wires. The red wire was connected to a red wire. 

The new switch was very similar. The wire colors are red, black, white, and green. There was no brown wire like the old switch. I connected them the same way that the old switch had been connected, i.e., red to red, black to black, the white to where the brown had been connected, and the green to ground. Powered everything back up and... nothing. 

The new switch didn't respond at all. I knew the green was correctly connected to ground. I presumed red to red was correct. I tried reversing the wires that the white and black were attached to. Same result. No matter what, I could not get the new switch to respond no matter how the wires were connected. It threw me off that the new switch had a white (neutral) wire whereas the old switch had a brown wire in the third connector. Is brown supposed to be a neutral wire? I reinstalled the old switch and it worked fine. I have no idea what I am doing wrong with the new switch and why I cannot get it working. I tabled the install so I could ask you guys about it. 

I went up into the attic above the garage. The power for the existing T8 fixture is a Romex wire coming into, and out of, a junction box. The T8 fixture appears to be part of a circuit although it was hard to trace since the wire disappeared under the walkway. It was *far *more complex than I was expecting. I though it was just a single wire running to the fixture. After than, I knew I was going to have to table the project for now until I could get more guidance. 

I _did_ successfully replace a faulty outdoor flood light fixture under the overhang on a corner of the house. But, that was just three wires, black, white, and ground. The new fixture is much nicer than the old one, which was no longer reliable. So, I did get something done this weekend besides get stumped by the new switch wiring.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

No one be too jealous, but I got to speak to Iowa. Like, a real phone call. It was like talking to the Oracle at Delphi, if Apollo was an electrician. 

I think we might have gotten the problem solved. The switch was still in TEST mode when I tried to get it working. In that mode, it appears that the ON setting is disabled. If that's the case, then I should be able to finish the install when I can get back there this weekend. The brown neutral wire on the old switch is weird, but from what I can tell, brown is also used for neutral sometimes. That would make sense given it's in the same spot as the white wire on the new switch.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

So, I made it back to my girlfriend's house over the weekend. The new switch is now working. It solved the flickering lights issue when set to AUTO that the old switch was causing. 

As it turns out, the problem was that the new switch needed a neutral connection. The old switch didn't use one. The switch box did have a neutral wire. It was coiled up in the back of the box. The old switch was wired strangely. The brown wire in the old switch was also a hot wire, along with the black wire. From what I can tell, it was set up as a 3-way switch. The wiring was ground, hot, hot, load-hot. The new switch needed the neutral and only one hot. The new switch was ground, neutral, hot, load-hot. Once that was sorted out, the switch worked. 

The brown wire on the old switch really threw me off. That's not a wire color typically associated with American home setups.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

ha!
good one!
glad you are back up and running!


----------

