# Synthetic 10w30 oil suggestion WGEN12000DF



## Rankamateur (Nov 12, 2019)

First time poster.

I was wondering if anyone could suggest a synthetic oil for a 713cc generator v-twin engine.

Some say Mobil 1 but man are there a bunch to consider. Does it really matter?

Thanks everyone!


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## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

I've been running Wal Mart 5W-30 in ALL small engines here for years. It's available in various "flavors." It's your $$ but the critical aspect to oil is keeping it full and changing when needed not sure the expensive pedigree is that important.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Full-Synthetic-SAE-5W-30-Motor-Oil-5-Quarts/17133942


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Rankamateur said:


> First time poster.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could suggest a synthetic oil for a 713cc generator v-twin engine.
> 
> ...


Your manual should state either a 10W30 or 10W40 grade. I use AMSOIL small engine oil, a full synthetic, that is made for severe duty use in all my small engines. Most folks forget to do regular maintenance and this oil has a considerable long protection margin should you forget to change it out regularly. Here is a link and if you can't find it locally delivery is usually a couple of days if you order on-line. Works for me and I've been an AMSOILuser for over 30 years. Dutchy
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/4-stroke/?zo=331384


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

I did some research on motor oil some years ago. I looked at all the data I could find on wear rates in various tests, how they handle contaminants, etc. In a nutshell, any synthetic is better than any non-synthetic. Amsoil is the best, but it's also very expensive. At the time I did my research Mobil 1 was a close second, but they've since changed from the more expensive and better base stock to the less expensive type, so I expect they've lost that status.

Bottom line, I use whatever full synthetic is cheap. Mostly that means Walmart's Super Tech, Harvest King from the farm store, or NAPA or Mobil 1 when they're on sale.


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Yes I agree that AMSOIL isn't cheap, but the cost of only $10 and to get any other brand of synthetic oil might only be 2/3 dollars less. So for me it's worth it when you consider the Severe/Commercial duty that it is designed for. However, I'd like to argue that any synthetic oil is better than any petroleum based oil. Harley's 360 outperforms their Syn3 in most tests that I've seen... Dutchy


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

Dutchy491 said:


> Yes I agree that AMSOIL isn't cheap, but the cost of only $10 and to get any other brand of synthetic oil might only be 2/3 dollars less.


It's pretty easy to get full synthetic oil for $3-$4/qt.


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

backwoodsman said:


> It's pretty easy to get full synthetic oil for $3-$4/qt.


I have not seen full synthetic that cheap. Personally no more oil than my generator or lawn mower uses, i prefer to stick with one of the major brands, Mobil 1 Pennzoil, Valvoline. I also want something that I can find at an auto parts store, big box store, ect, and have not seen any Amisol on shelves anywhere. I am Leary of any wal mart brands as to quality, feeling that they are made for a pricing point for their increased profit and that only, I simply do not trust them.

Now I am using the same oil in my car as all the small 4 cycle equipment, and generally buy it in the 5 qt containers.


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

jkingrph said:


> I have not seen full synthetic that cheap.


NAPA occasionally puts theirs on sale for $3 or $3.50 in quart bottles.

Walmart's regular price on Super Tech full synthetic is less than $20/5qt jug.

Many farm stores will have Harvest King full synthetic for around $20 or less for a 5qt jug.

Once in a while I see Mobil 1 on sale for $20-$22 per 5qt jug.



> I am Leary of any wal mart brands as to quality, feeling that they are made for a pricing point for their increased profit and that only, I simply do not trust them.


A good policy with a lot of Walmart's stuff, but oil has to at least meet the stated API spec. There's lots of info online about Super Tech oil, and also about the Harvest King. Both are very well respected.


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

backwoodsman said:


> NAPA occasionally puts theirs on sale for $3 or $3.50 in quart bottles.
> 
> Walmart's regular price on Super Tech full synthetic is less than $20/5qt jug.
> 
> ...



That would be minimum spec. Actually on the bottles any brand only lists the spec too which it is made, ie the minimum. If it exceeds as many say some brands as Amisol does, it does not say so, or does not say how it exceeds. I expect there is no standard for exceeding spec.


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## email4eric (Dec 23, 2018)

Mobil 1 is great, and no, it doesn't really matter.


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## speedy2019 (Jan 29, 2019)

I just changed my oil to semi synthetic, having used non synthetic oil since the beginning of the year as its a new generator. I have put about 8-10hrs on the generator with the non synthetic oil and will probably go fully synthetic when i do the next oil change, in another 10-20 hours of use. Im hopeing breaking it in nice and slowly (I have only run it for 20min a month, with light loads so far), it will last a good few years without failing when I need it during powercuts and in cold conditions.

Hey guys going off topic here, but whats the lowest temp a 12v battery can operate in, as I have a key and cord start generator? but I cant pull the cord fast enough to start it.. Im lucky as the generator recharges the battery as it runs, so hopefully with the monthly runs I give the generator, it will keep the battery topped up.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

speedy2019 said:


> but whats the lowest temp a 12v battery can operate in


Batteries are rated in CCA (Cold-Cranking Amps). This is the amount of current a battery can deliver for 30 seconds at -18 C without dropping to a specified cut-off voltage. A fully charged lead-acid battery can survive down to –50 C, but a battery with a low state of charge can freeze at –1 C. When the water in a battery freezes it expands and can cause irreparable damage to the cells.


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## speedy2019 (Jan 29, 2019)

My battery on the generator is only a small Lead Acid 12v 7ah.. I dont know if I can get a bigger or better one without buggering the starter motor?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

speedy2019 said:


> My battery on the generator is only a small Lead Acid 12v 7ah.. I dont know if I can get a bigger or better one without buggering the starter motor?


You don't need a larger one if it's cranking the engine over OK. Recommend that you keep a battery maintainer on it if your monthly test-run regimen doesn't keep it healthy enough. A 12 volt battery will measure at about 12.9 volts when it’s fully charged and about 11.4 volts when it is fully discharged. That’s a total of 1.5 volts that represents the full range of charge on a 12 volt battery. Your generator probably initially charges it at 14+ volts, and then a typical battery maintainer will keep it in the 13-14 volt range.


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## speedy2019 (Jan 29, 2019)

tabora said:


> You don't need a larger one if it's cranking the engine over OK. Recommend that you keep a battery maintainer on it if your monthly test-run regimen doesn't keep it healthy enough. A 12 volt battery will measure at about 12.9 volts when it’s fully charged and about 11.4 volts when it is fully discharged. That’s a total of 1.5 volts that represents the full range of charge on a 12 volt battery. Your generator probably initially charges it at 14+ volts, and then a typical battery maintainer will keep it in the 13-14 volt range.



thank you very much, I have just been browsing though the battery maintainer's online and they might do the trick during the winter months if the battery isnt great in the cold.. Im guessing I can leave the battery maintainer connected when running the generator? if so I will somehow sorted so its permanently attached to the battery and the mains.

I can see me having a powercut on a cold winters day and nothing happens when I turn the key........ I am hoping the charging of the battery when doing my monthly runs of the generator will be enough to keep the battery good enough during the winter months and wont let me down on a freezing day when I need the generator for real.... But yes I dont think the generator will want to start easy when its freezing or below, as it takes a few more seconds then normal if I leave the generator standing longer than a month without running it... I would of thought with all the fussing I do over my generator, (as I have never owned something with a engine, as Im in a wheelchair) I thought it would start first touch every time.

If I have problems I might also try buying a battery, as Im guessing generators come with real cheap batteries?


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## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

FWIW a lot of folks around here have Generac whole house units and for whatever reason, the batteries often seem to fail when needed. Add to that the ones I'm familiar with don't charge when the genset is running, but from utility supplied 120V coming in from the house. In an outage scenario, the 120V coming from the house isn't energized by the genset-guessing that's what is used to determine power loss to start and stop the unit? In an extended outage most folks don't run them 24/7, but shut down to check/change oil, etc. Those small batteries only have one or two starts without recharging. The routine is to have jumper cables and your riding lawn mower available. Suppose you could carry the battery to your vehicle and charge it using jumper cables. During one extended outage my neighbor ran an extension cord back from the house and powered a battery charger to top off the genset battery. 

The preceding is in no way a criticism of Generac, just what I've observed with units 8-10 years old. That was when we had an "inland hurricane" and power was out for 12 days-lots of folks installed whole house Generac's after that. No idea if Generac has addressed this in newer units.


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

speedy2019 said:


> Hey guys going off topic here...


For future reference, that was your cue to start a new thread instead of taking this one off topic.


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Here's some of the technical numbers for AMSOIL 10W30 Small Engine Oil. The fire point is incredible as is the pour point. Also the TBN number is higher than most which helps to give this oil a long drain interval because it can fight acidity so well. How does your favourite oil compare? So to me the oil brand does matter for my toys etc. Dutchy 



TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
AMSOIL Synthetic Small-Engine Oil *10W30*
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.3 

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D445) 66.8 

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270) 141 
CCS Viscosity, cP (ASTM D5293) 5968 
Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D97) -40C (-40F) 
Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D92) 246 (475) 
Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D92) 264C (507F) 
Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm 0.45 
NOACK Volatility, % weight loss (ASTM D5800) 4.0 
High-Temperature/High-Shear Viscosity (ASTM D4683 @ 150°C, 1.0 X 106 s.-1), cP 3.3 
Total Base Number 8.5


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## Casper (Jun 13, 2019)

You guys mite like this Guy he did a Test on Synthetic oils lots of great info. hope the link works.

"https://youtu.be/TWuKvnCq1js"]https://youtu.be/TWuKvnCq1js[/URL]


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Try this. Pretty cool video.... 



Dutchy


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## Rankamateur (Nov 12, 2019)

Dutchy491 said:


> Your manual should state either a 10W30 or 10W40 grade. I use AMSOIL small engine oil, a full synthetic, that is made for severe duty use in all my small engines. Most folks forget to do regular maintenance and this oil has a considerable long protection margin should you forget to change it out regularly. Here is a link and if you can't find it locally delivery is usually a couple of days if you order on-line. Works for me and I've been an AMSOILuser for over 30 years. Dutchy
> https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/4-stroke/?zo=331384


Sorry for the absence. Password issues. 

Thanks for all the discussion guys! It really helped me in choosing the right oil.

On this subject, the manufacturer of my generator suggests an oil change every 50 hours. During extended outages that is every other day.

Using a highly rated and recommended synthetic oil does that allow longer time between oil changes. If so, what would you recommend?

Appreciate all your contributions.


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

Rankamateur said:


> On this subject, the manufacturer of my generator suggests an oil change every 50 hours. During extended outages that is every other day.
> 
> Using a highly rated and recommended synthetic oil does that allow longer time between oil changes. If so, what would you recommend?


If it's a V-twin it probably has an oil filter, correct? 50 hours is probably a good number if it's running a bit now & then and then sitting a long time, but for continuous operation I'd think you could go a lot longer. I'd look at it at 50 hours, and if it still looks fairly clean, keep running it until it doesn't.

And when you get filters, get the best (smallest micron rating) one you can find, like NAPA Gold, Mobil 1, or similar. That's arguably more important than the oil you use.


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Rankamateur said:


> Sorry for the absence. Password issues.
> 
> Thanks for all the discussion guys! It really helped me in choosing the right oil.
> 
> ...



Generally if used oil is analyzed an oil change is recommended when the TBN is reduced to half of what it was when the oil was new (ie AMSOIL small engine oil is 8.5), and when ppm for iron reaches 100, etc. Would be interesting to see some samples for similar situations, but the cost of the testing usually is more then a simple oil change for a small engine like that of your generator. However, 50 hours is a long time in reality. It usually is way more than a 2 day period. In a power outage, most folks wouldn't run their generator every minute of every hour of every day. The one main reason being concerned over fuel usage and the unknown end of the crisis. One never knows quite how long the outage is so the concern for me is always _do I have enough fuel?_. However, in a pinch a good oil, usually a synthetic, will easily provide a 100 hours of decent protection. Dutchy. UOA link below

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/oil-analysis-services/?zo=331384


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## Rankamateur (Nov 12, 2019)

backwoodsman said:


> If it's a V-twin it probably has an oil filter, correct? 50 hours is probably a good number if it's running a bit now & then and then sitting a long time, but for continuous operation I'd think you could go a lot longer. I'd look at it at 50 hours, and if it still looks fairly clean, keep running it until it doesn't.
> 
> And when you get filters, get the best (smallest micron rating) one you can find, like NAPA Gold, Mobil 1, or similar. That's arguably more important than the oil you use.


Thanks for your input and recommendation of oil filters. I will certainly look at micron ratings. (Didn't even know of such a thing)

It is a v-twin and does have a filter.


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## Rankamateur (Nov 12, 2019)

Dutchy491 said:


> Generally if used oil is analyzed an oil change is recommended when the TBN is reduced to half of what it was when the oil was new (ie AMSOIL small engine oil is 8.5), and when ppm for iron reaches 100, etc. Would be interesting to see some samples for similar situations, but the cost of the testing usually is more then a simple oil change for a small engine like that of your generator. However, 50 hours is a long time in reality. It usually is way more than a 2 day period. In a power outage, most folks wouldn't run their generator every minute of every hour of every day. The one main reason being concerned over fuel usage and the unknown end of the crisis. One never knows quite how long the outage is so the concern for me is always _do I have enough fuel?_. However, in a pinch a good oil, usually a synthetic, will easily provide a 100 hours of decent protection. Dutchy. UOA link below
> 
> https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/other-products/oil-analysis-services/?zo=331384


Thank you for your input!

It is possible we could find ourselves in a situation where running the generator 24/7 would be a legitimate need. Although, I can where that certainly wouldn't be 100% of the time. And yes, if fuel was an issue then that would limit the time the generator is on.

I appreciate the sharing of all the numbers. I work well with that kind of info. :tango_face_smile:

Thanks again.


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## Rick Houston (Dec 27, 2019)

You guys seem to be knowledgeable about oil. I bought a new predator 9000 yesterday. The books says to use 10W – 30 above 32° F 5W – 30 at 32° F or below. While in storage my garage never gets below 47 degrees. But during an outage in Colorado the gen would be moved outside and you can bet the temp would be below 32. So which weight oil should I use?


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Rick,
I would look at the AMSOIL 10w30. Open the link and then click on technical info than click on Data Bulletin. Scroll down to where you can see the characteristics of all three grades offered for small engnes. You can see that all three pour down to about -40C (-39 to -44) with the 10w30 having a Fire point 264C. All three grades will work fine, but I would prefer to use the 10w30 because it covers the cold/warm temps so well. 

This is a tough oil, built to use in Commercial situations, where there is a lot of abuse due to the many types of construction or emergency situations and owners (or employees) forgetting to do regular service. You can order AMSOIL online if you can't find it locally. That's what I do and it arrives in a day or two. Dutchy
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...30-small-engine-oil/?code=ASEQT-EA/?zo=331384
ps. Break in your new generator with a regular oil for the first 20 hours or so. Don't be afraid to run it with a good load on it after the first 1/2 hour or so, like an electric heater or similar. (Always run some type of load when exercising your genny and kill the appliance prior to shutting down, so that it doesn't loose it's magnetism.)


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## Rick Houston (Dec 27, 2019)

thanks


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

speedy2019 said:


> thank you very much, I have just been browsing though the battery maintainer's online and they might do the trick during the winter months if the battery isnt great in the cold.. Im guessing I can leave the battery maintainer connected when running the generator? if so I will somehow sorted so its permanently attached to the battery and the mains.
> 
> I can see me having a powercut on a cold winters day and nothing happens when I turn the key........ I am hoping the charging of the battery when doing my monthly runs of the generator will be enough to keep the battery good enough during the winter months and wont let me down on a freezing day when I need the generator for real.... But yes I dont think the generator will want to start easy when its freezing or below, as it takes a few more seconds then normal if I leave the generator standing longer than a month without running it... I would of thought with all the fussing I do over my generator, (as I have never owned something with a engine, as Im in a wheelchair) I thought it would start first touch every time.
> 
> If I have problems I might also try buying a battery, as Im guessing generators come with real cheap batteries?


I have one of these installed on everything I have with an electric starter., actually two on my diesel truck with two batteries.
https://smartercharger.com/collections/vehicle/products/ctek-mus-4-3-test-and-charge

My big 11000 W Honda came with a rather cheap lawn mower type battery that did not last much over a year, replacement with a similar type gave same result. I finally found a gel cell type designe for motorcycles that I managed to get into the small space available and it's going on year 3 now. 

I also have one of these installed on my generator to disconnect the battery from any circuit that might drain it.


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## backwoodsman (Aug 29, 2016)

Rick Houston said:


> You guys seem to be knowledgeable about oil. I bought a new predator 9000 yesterday. The books says to use 10W – 30 above 32° F 5W – 30 at 32° F or below. While in storage my garage never gets below 47 degrees. But during an outage in Colorado the gen would be moved outside and you can bet the temp would be below 32. So which weight oil should I use?


Briggs & Stratton says synthetic 10w-30 or 5w-30 is OK in all their engines at any temperature. All the Honda engines I have specify 10w-30. Your engine isn't Briggs or Honda, but one splash-lubricated small engine isn't going to be much different than any other regarding oil. One advantage of synthetic oil is that it doesn't thicken nearly as much at low temperatures. So I use synthetic 10w-30 in all my small engines at any temperature. I might use synthetic 5w-30 in cold weather, if it didn't increase oil consumption much.


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

Rick Houston said:


> You guys seem to be knowledgeable about oil. I bought a new predator 9000 yesterday. The books says to use 10W – 30 above 32° F 5W – 30 at 32° F or below. While in storage my garage never gets below 47 degrees. But during an outage in Colorado the gen would be moved outside and you can bet the temp would be below 32. So which weight oil should I use?


I would go by the temp at which the engine is stored. Once running it is going to be well above any of the temperatures you mention so the 10w-30 would be fine, If it is turned off and gets "cold soaked" below that 32 then i would stick with the 5w-30.


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

jkingrph said:


> _I would go by the temp at which the engine is stored._ Once running it is going to be well above any of the temperatures you mention so the 10w-30 would be fine, If it is turned off and gets "cold soaked" below that 32 then i would stick with the 5w-30.



The grade of oil that an OEM recommends is the primarily the ambient temp while the equipment is in use, and the ambient temperature for storage/inactivity is secondary. Yes, you want good flow at startup, so a lower first number addresses that, and the higher second number addresses the heat related stresses. A good Synthetic will have a wide temperature range of protection. An easy check is to look for the pour point temp and the fire point temp, among other characteristics, of your favourite oil grade/brand and compare to other grades/brands. (look for a MSDS sheet or Data sheet that every reputable manufacturer has) Even though there are standards for each grade, they vary by brand and quality... Dutchy


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

Dutchy491 said:


> The grade of oil that an OEM recommends is the primarily the ambient temp while the equipment is in use, and the ambient temperature for storage/inactivity is secondary. Yes, you want good flow at startup, so a lower first number addresses that, and the higher second number addresses the heat related stresses. A good Synthetic will have a wide temperature range of protection. An easy check is to look for the pour point temp and the fire point temp, among other characteristics, of your favourite oil grade/brand and compare to other grades/brands. (look for a MSDS sheet or Data sheet that every reputable manufacturer has) Even though there are standards for each grade, they vary by brand and quality... Dutchy


My thinking is that with a multi grade oil, the lower number indicates a "thinner" oil for better flow under cold conditions, and the higher number is thicker to compensate for natural thinning as the temperature of the oil increases. If you consider especially a liquid cooled engine, which has a thermostat, they run at basically a consistant hot temperature give or take 10-20 degrees, I would think an air cooled engine would be more dependent on ambient temperature to determine actual running temperature.


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## speedy2019 (Jan 29, 2019)

I have just changed from SAE30 to 10-40w oil due to the weather getting colder and it might be me, but I think it might have improved the starting as it appears to start quicker now.


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

I'm willing to bet that if you'd gone to a premium Synthetic, while keeping the same grade, that you would have noticed the same difference. A premium Synthetic will cover the extreme temperature range of operation that most OEMs recommend, thus eliminating the need for several grades to cover the different seasons or environments. This thread has been an interesting discussion so far... Dutchy


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## jkingrph (Sep 18, 2017)

Dutchy491 said:


> I'm willing to bet that if you'd gone to a premium Synthetic, while keeping the same grade, that you would have noticed the same difference. A premium Synthetic will cover the extreme temperature range of operation that most OEMs recommend, thus eliminating the need for several grades to cover the different seasons or environments. This thread has been an interesting discussion so far... Dutchy


My 2003 Ford diesel specifies 15w40 oil. At my first change I changed to Rotella full synthetic 5w40. It seemed to turn over easier and quicker in cold weather.  Now at 180,000 miles , probably rather low mileage for an almost 17 year old diesel truck, absolutely no engine problems. I believe in the synthetic oil, running it in everything I have, my wife's car the lawn mower, my generators and even the little two cycle hand held equipment. One of my string trimmers and my chain saw are over 30 years old now and still going strong. I buy top quality equipment and take care of it to the best of my ability.


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