# Removing bonded neutral HELP!!!!!



## Thezapper

Hello everyone, I just purchased a honda eu6500is generator and wanted to use this as a home back up for critical circuits, furnace, fridge, some lights. Now I've done allot of searching but came empty on my results, looking for the service bulitin on how to do this. I've verified that In fact the generator has the neutral bonded to ground( chassis ) with a multimeter , even though there is a sticker on the front panel of the unit stating neutral bonded.....

I've done my research on choosing a good generator, I first purchased a ridgid 7000 watt donkey, that was so loud, I was scared to use it night, so I sold that, and bought what I wanted to buy in the first place, eu6500is, what a beast, she's heavy, but it's so smooth and silent. I picked up a brand used unit with 40 hours on it, and without a single scratch. It also came with 50 ft 10/4 220 cord too, I paid 4 k cdn, I'm happy with that. 

So my next plan is to remove the neutral bond and purchase my transfer switch and have a electrician finish the install. I was thinking of using the apc transfer switch, the smart one, it moves loads around etc.... What do you guys think of that? I basically want to have the generator in a fixed position, run the cord, and flip the switch, I like throwing switches  so I'm all ears .....

Thanks
Mike


----------



## Thezapper

28 views and not 1 opinion, come on, help a brother out.....


----------



## aandpdan

Everything I've found so far show the 6500is as a floating neutral.

This is from the Honda EU6500is manual, page 39:

Honda portable generators have a system ground that connects the
generator frame components to the ground terminals in the AC output
receptacles. The system ground is not connected to the AC neutral
wire. If the generator is tested with a receptacle tester, it will not show
the same ground circuit condition as for a home receptacle.


----------



## montr

I have a EU6500is USA model built date June 2013. As the manual indicate, it is floating neutral. The neutral and ground are not connected together at the generator.


----------



## Thezapper

Mine is, I tested it with a meter, and there is a sticker that's says so aswell. Anyone know how to remove this bond on the bonded neutral models?


----------



## montr

Must be that the Canadian version is different than the USA version.


----------



## aandpdan

Maybe it was modified by the previous owner.

Start by looking near the receptacles for a jumper between the neutral/ground. That's what many other brands do.


----------



## Thezapper

Thanks, unit was not modified, it came like that from honda. I'll post picks so you guys can see, it's all oe honda. I was looking in the wiring diagrams and in fact by the recepticles there is a jumper to ground. Now if I remove it, other than making the neutral float, will it do anything else ? Or should I just bring it in to honda. Just trying to avoid the hassles of bringing it there. No honda genny Gurus out there? Thanks so far help so far, much appreciated.....

Regards
Zapper


----------



## aandpdan

There should be no problems with removing that jumper.

A quick tip: If you ever need to use the generator stand-alone (not on the transfer switch) get a 120 volt plug, wire a jumper from neutral to ground, and plug it into another receptacle. Then, it's back to being "neutral bonded to the frame."


----------



## Thezapper

@Aandpdan thanks for the tip, I still haven't checked on removing the jumper, but I will tomorrow. Thanks

Zapper


----------



## Wab

*Neutral Bond - EU6500is*

Hello

Just joined the forum. Looking into a 6500is. When you state "by the receptacles there is a jumper to ground" have you confirmed the jumper by visually noting this by removing the plastic cover of the control panel or from the schematics?
You were going to post pictures but I see that the thread has not progressed unless I am missing the continuation process.

Trying to understand the process of neutral to ground and what is a floating neutral?

THanks


----------



## aandpdan

Welcome Wab,

There were no pictures posted so we don't know what happened.

As to your other questions, a floating neutral means that there is no connection between the neutral wire and ground. This is required by Code when using a 2 pole transfer switch (the neutral isn't switched) OR if you are using an interlock. The bond is made at only one place - in the main panel or disconnect. 

If there is a neutral-ground bond in multiple locations it can cause "objectionable" neutral current flow. If you have a generator with a neutral-ground bond and it is GFCI equipped it would trip due to that current flow.

Don't get confused by ground (as in the Earth) and ground as in an "equipment grounding conductor" - the 3rd prong on a standard cord.

A grounding electrode conductor - ground rod into the earth, is primarily used for lightning protection. The impedance of the earth is too high to trip most breakers if a fault occurred. An equipment grounding conductor is a low impedance bath back to the source used to clear a fault.

Hope it helps.


----------



## Wab

Hello aandpdan

Thank you for the reply.

Your description assists greatly and the following occurred when I picked up the last 6500 with discounted pricing from the dealer.

Looking at the schematic of manual that is provided with the gen rather than an online manual I have a bond between ground and earth exists between the AC Circuit Protector and the AC Circuit Breaker. Also on page 28 the manual states there is a permanent conductor between the generator (Stator winding) and the frame.

I removed the plastic cover of the control panel exposing the electrical connectors. A "White Wire" was loosely attached to the frame adjacent to a green wire with a solid bond to the frame. The nut was not secured on the white wire. I removed this wire and wrapped it with heat shrink and electrical tape then tie wrapped it to a cable assembly.

Using an ohm meter at the 240 outlet I verified the neutral is no longer bonded to the frame/ground.

On the exterior of the gen set on the lower area of the frame exists a ground terminal. Is this to be attached to a ground rod if the gen was used as a stand alone unit?


----------



## Wab

The statement should read a bond between the neutral and ground between the ACCP and ACCB. pardon.


----------



## aandpdan

I can't imagine Honda would leave any wire intentionally loosely attached to the frame. I only have the online diagram so aren't sure of what you're looking at.

Yes that is a terminal to connect to a ground rod. If you are connecting the generator to your house with an approved transfer switch or interlock, etc., then the 4 wire cord you use to connect to the house will also connect you to the house grounding electrode system (ground rod(s)).

According to OSHA, if you are using cord connected equipment you don't need a ground rod either.


----------



## Wab

Generally Honda is a quality product and I was also surprised to discover the bonding wire loose on the mounting stud.

The Canadian edition schematic shows the bonding of the White wire just to the left of the voltage selector switch and terminating to a ground point. Not a ground wire just bonded to ground.

Also there is a AC Circuit Breaker prior to the VSSw (Voltage Selector Switch) that does not appear on the alternate schematic.

The Can schematic has four connectors coming off the VSSw where as the alternate schematic has three.

Last difference is the Can has three AC Circuit Protectors - 2-20A 1-30A and the alternate has 2-20A and 2-30A.

Interesting bit of Engineering.

I installed a Generac 60 Amp transfer switch, Model 6295, yesterday as the interface between Gen set and Utility power. Good quality and well worth the price to maintain isolation and safety. Tested and running the utility power through the switch and now to hook up the 4C/10 cable after coring a 1/14 inch hole for the cable through the wall. 

Will run the gen set on Aspen fuel for a few hours or premium fuel if required for emergency, no gasohol on any equipment I run including vehicles (tend to purchase engines with 10:1 compression) then will install a tri-fuel carb kit. Would install the carb kit sooner but as the temp was 0F today the plastic components are rather rigid. Probably no relief in the weather until March 2015. We don't receive the heavy wet snow but receive the -30 temps with Hollywood snow that is light and dry.

Looking for a quality ice auger. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your input.

There are only 3 ACCP, 2-20amp and 1-30 Amp on the Can schematic but four on the online with 2-20A and 2-30A.


----------



## aandpdan

Seems to be many differences between the Canadian and US units.

I've converted to propane only here. It takes care of the fuel storage concern and I find it runs much smoother. I've seen the newer kits with the plastic snorkel, looks OK. I had to drill my carb for a replacement jet though.


----------



## arubalou

did you ever think of contacting honda??


----------



## Thezapper

Do you have any pics of your setup? It would help out any enquiring minds.... I also have a cdn eu6500 and wanted to remove the nuetral bond but I decided to ad one of these to my setup Schneider Electric - Square D | 30 Amp Square D Generator Panel with 18 Spaces, 36 Circuits Maximum | Home Depot Canada... But never really finished, got cold, and never had lost power since.


----------



## TJ-NY

Many years later... I have a Honda EB Series EB6500X 6500W generator, and finally 7 years later finally had a need for it (though it seems I'd never tested it)... as soon as it's connected to the house 4-pin connector, the GFCI trips! After much reading, I learned that this is a bonded-neutral generator intended for contractors, not home use. ?!?! Irritated that they sold it to me. Called Honda, and yes indeed, the neutral needs to be floated. Can't help me on how to do it though. ?!?! So after taking apart various bits, it turns out this is REALLY easy to remedy, you just have to know where to find the connection point of the neutral to ground. Turns out it just takes two screws to get to it!

This is the jumper you need to remove:








To get to it, remove this cover (2 screws):









Inside you will see this.










Find the white jumper that goes to ground and remove it completely - that means both the screw and the nut need to come off so you can remove the jumper completely. Of course, be sure to reconnect the screw and nut, and also take care not to drop anything into the windings:










I did go and put a label on the cover to indicate this is no longer a bonded neutral unit as well. Tested and the GFCI did not trip when connected to my electrician-done house wiring/connection box.

Good luck!


----------



## drmerdp

Honda made it nice and easy.Certainly Beats pulling the control panel apart.


----------



## tabora

TJ-NY said:


> ...This is the jumper you need to remove:
> View attachment 8022


When I "remove" the bonding jumper, I bend it around and join both ends to whichever end point is easiest to access (usually the ground end). That way it's stored and available if I ever need to reinstall the bond for standalone use in the future.


----------



## KwdEsq

TJ-NY said:


> Many years later... I have a Honda EB Series EB6500X 6500W generator, and finally 7 years later finally had a need for it (though it seems I'd never tested it)... as soon as it's connected to the house 4-pin connector, the GFCI trips! After much reading, I learned that this is a bonded-neutral generator intended for contractors, not home use. ?!?! Irritated that they sold it to me. Called Honda, and yes indeed, the neutral needs to be floated. Can't help me on how to do it though. ?!?! So after taking apart various bits, it turns out this is REALLY easy to remedy, you just have to know where to find the connection point of the neutral to ground. Turns out it just takes two screws to get to it!
> 
> This is the jumper you need to remove:
> View attachment 8022
> 
> 
> To get to it, remove this cover (2 screws):
> 
> View attachment 8023
> 
> 
> Inside you will see this.
> 
> View attachment 8024
> 
> 
> 
> Find the white jumper that goes to ground and remove it completely - that means both the screw and the nut need to come off so you can remove the jumper completely. Of course, be sure to reconnect the screw and nut, and also take care not to drop anything into the windings:
> 
> View attachment 8025
> 
> 
> I did go and put a label on the cover to indicate this is no longer a bonded neutral unit as well. Tested and the GFCI did not trip when connected to my electrician-done house wiring/connection box.
> 
> Good luck!


Did you remove the jumper or just leave the upper connection floating with electrical tape over it?


----------



## iowagold

most of the time they connect the wire back to its self on the same terminal that way the jumper is still there in case it needs to be used on a construction site.


----------

