# Cleaning up portable Generator power



## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

Can a
Acme Electric Constant Voltage
Regulator
be installed between the 50amp output of the generator, before entering my panel box in home? As we know most portables have a horrible THD%. I was told the regulator would clean up the power sine waves and do all sorts of good things, lol. Im pretty knowledgeable on standard wiring of 110/220 wiring, but at a loss in this depth. If this type regulator will work in this scenario, what size regulator is suitable for a 10/12000watt genny? thanks.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

kirklandlee239 said:


> Can a
> Acme Electric Constant Voltage
> Regulator
> be installed between the 50amp output of the generator, before entering my panel box in home? As we know most portables have a horrible THD%. I was told the regulator would clean up the power sine waves and do all sorts of good things, lol. Im pretty knowledgeable on standard wiring of 110/220 wiring, but at a loss in this depth. If this type regulator will work in this scenario, what size regulator is suitable for a 10/12000watt genny? thanks.


Brian at Cityelectric.com said this would work?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Have you looked at the cost of those things? For a 10kva unit it is over $17,000.


https://www.alliedelec.com/product/acme-electric-corporation/t169438/70267078/


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

you can buy a couple of honda eu7000is gens and never look back...


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

kirklandlee239 said:


> Brian at Cityelectric.com said this would work?


ask brian what the life expectancy is on the acme units...
and will they stand for lightning?

it would be a cool item to leave inline all of the time if it would last 20-50 years and stand for a lightning hit.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> ask brian what the life expectancy is on the acme units...
> and will they stand for lightning?
> 
> it would be a cool item to leave inline all of the time if it would last 20-50 years and stand for a lightning hit.


Honestly, in my case the Gen or line conditioner would be used very seldom, extended power outages etc. disconnected from normal power grid via a 50 amp breaker in panel box. I was hoping Fleabay could render some cheaper options new/old stock, but they are expensive... I really like the stationary propane backup systems, but they all require auto switches. Funny that the home system like generac can sell units with 5%THD or less for $3-5k and most portable gens range from 10% to over 20%THD, lol, why i didnt buy the Westinghouse dual fuel.. Im quickly learning there is no ideal fix for my wishes, at least not with my wallet, lol. thanks.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Can you share details about your generator?


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> you can buy a couple of honda eu7000is gens and never look back...


i wish i could find an Inverter type portable gen with around 10k watts...thanks


iowagold said:


> you can buy a couple of honda eu7000is gens and never look back...


I looked at these, gas only...No way im fooling with gas, doesnt store well and honestly a headache...im old, i want to make things easier, like propane which stores pretty much forever lol, thanks


OrlyP said:


> Can you share details about your generator?


Glady, if i had one now. Im doing some research trying to figure out what will best suit my wants and desires, lol. Ive had many gas powered gens through the years as a younger man. Now im looking to acquire one that runs on propane, Gas as long as it does both. liked the wattage of the Westinghouse
*WGen9500DF *
but after learning it could vary to 23%THD, im concerned with some sensitive electronics i have..Looking at the
*DuroMax XP9000iH 9000-*
At least i can parallel 2 if i ever want to. As another member pointed out, those Line conditioners are simply insane on costs...


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

If you're worried about THD, you should get the DuroMax. Start with one unit and as you've said, you can parallel a second one later if you need more capacity.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> If you're worried about THD, you should get the DuroMax. Start with one unit and as you've said, you can parallel a second one later if you need more capacity.


thanks. Im in a game that eludes my expertise, ha. Depending on what day it is, how cold and if they had supper, you get many answers on the THD factor..we do have PC's Tv's, and of course Frig's and various Routers etc that have electronic boards. Im just told that the higher Distortion in sine waves are not good on them. Thanks for all the replies.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

FWIW, I have a 5kw non-inverter Chinese genny that's powering up all sorts of electronics in my home.... computers (about 4 desktops/servers, and several laptops), smart home devices, TVs/AV receivers/Rokus, a bunch of other IT equipment (Cisco router, IP phones, LAN switches, Ubiquiti WiFi APs, etc.), a couple of inverter A/Cs, and all home appliances except the shower heaters. 

Granted, I don't have any idea what the THD is on my genny (unpublished), but everything works fine... no funny noises from any equipment, no flickering, no weird behaviors.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

there is a tri fuel kit mode for the honda eu7000is generator.
and they work well.


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> there is a tri fuel kit mode for the honda eu7000is generator.
> and they work well.


This is what I have for my EU7000is. No more gasoline hassles. US Carb has the MSK7000 kit and it works great. Pick up an iridium spark plug and you're good to go.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

kirklandlee239 said:


> Depending on what day it is, how cold and if they had supper, you get many answers on the THD factor..we do have PC's Tv's, and of course Frig's and various Routers etc that have electronic boards. Im just told that the higher Distortion in sine waves are not good on them.


I wish there were straight up answers to the THD issue, but unfortunately, they are all over the place as you have noted. At my house I have a small 3kw non-inverter generator. I bought it in 2008 and it only has 100 hours of emergency use on it as our outages are few and far between. We are gas/electric and I just run the basics that I need on extension cords. I did run my old gas furnace with it, but I recently had a new high-efficiency unit installed. It has a variable speed blower that ramps up and down. During the installation, the HVAC tech noticed my cord hanging in the furnace closet that I kept available to hookup my furnace (I just removed the furnace from the house wiring and wired in the cord). He told me NOT to run this new unit using my generator. He said he has replaced several control boards for customers that were damaged by their generators. I did not question him about as to why this was the case, but after research I have concluded that it is a THD problem. I would be nuts to risk a $1,000 control board replacement by running it on a $350 generator after what he said. I also discovered that the furnace will not run without a neutral-ground bond because it uses flame rectification, but that has nothing to do with THD.
I am currently trying to decide on a replacement generator. I am leaning towards a Champion 100519 6250/5000 Watt Inverter with <3% THD. Since I do not have heavy loads (I will not run the A/C), I think this will work for me. I will convert it to use NG which is quite easy to do.
Before retiring, I did have the experience of running my server room (servers, UPSs, routers, phone system, Wi-Fi, video surveillance, etc. etc.) with no issues using a non-inverter unit for almost 3 days following a tornado that brought down our power lines (I also ran our saltwater aquarium equipment to keep the fish happy!). However, I was using a WL12000HE that has a spec of <6% THD. So, I cannot say if a higher THD unit would have caused problems.
I don't know if any of this information is helpful to you as it still does not answer the THD question. However, I would think the mentioned DuroMax or the Honda should work fine for you and provide peace of mind knowing you have a low THD system. It should also be future-proof...who knows what is coming down the pike by way of sophisticated electronics!


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

I forgot to mention that there are several non-inverter gens that have <5% THD. Seems to be more common in the larger gensets vs. the smaller ones. Inverter gens give some people the willies because they are concerned about all the extra electronics that could fail. Valid concern, so I won't knock it. Look at this article and notice in the comments the link to some examples of low THD gensets from this particular supplier.








Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) – What It Is & What It Does


What are harmonics and Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)? What are the causes and effects of harmonics? Portable inverter generators allow use of clean power.




generatorbible.com


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> there is a tri fuel kit mode for the honda eu7000is generator.
> and they work well.


Thanks. i did some looking at the kits, there again as with the whole THD issue im getting various results... 



 After looking at pricing, i can buy 2 of these for the cost of 1 honda. Dont get me wrong, i love Honda's, drive a 21 Ridgeline, and daughter has the 21 Accord hybrid (thats where all my money went, lol. All in all ill stick with the Duramax due to pricing, and hopefully the minimal usage i will put on it. Amazon.com


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## pipe (Jun 27, 2021)

The 7000is in the video is the old model with 4 selections in the iMonitor - new 7000is have 5


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

In the big scheme of things, consider a low THD value as a "nice to have" but make it share dollars with all the other choices and tradeoffs you'll have to make. It should be less of a showstopper and more of a "weighting". Keep in mind that THD can come from the power grid, the genny, and just about any device _inside_ your home already. What's more likely to affect devices in your house are "power surges", from both inside and outside your home.

For a generator purchase, other factors such as total KW output, warranty (1 yr, 3 yr, 5 yr), serviceability, fuel type, base price and cost to operate, come into play, to name a few of the considerations. Sales folks and/or marketing materials don't really want you to think about this all that much, and any FUD they can throw your way, such as THD, might sway you to buy their generator first. Nothing wrong with that from a sales perspective, other than you have to defend against it with much more reading.

What weight you place on all of these considerations is perhaps more important to making a good generator choice than any one item.

Whereas, if an HVAC unit has a control board (a brain) that is problematic, I'd be more worried about how to protect it from everyday life in my home's wiring, such as power surges and what not, than the effects of an occasional genny run a few times a year.

How prone is that control board to all kinds of power issues in general? How easy is it to diagnose and/or replace? How many people have to get involved with fixing it? If presented with a huge bill, does the presenter deflect blame onto the genny (and away from the system or themselves that generated that bill, aka future income)?

I'd find the manuals, do lots of reading, and determine if I chose wisely or poorly when I bought the home or system; if I did choose poorly, I'd slap a decent surge protector in front of it, and call it good. At least until the next replacement opportunity presented itself, at which point a better system would go in, forearmed with much more knowledge.

Power surges and other transient line effects are probably more harmful, in the long run, than THD. I base this upon my own experience of how many devices have failed in my home, running on a genny with 12% THD or more, for thousands of hours per year (off-grid) ... _zero_ devices from THD (unknown failure, had a short life, etc.), whereas, quite a few "smoking guns" right after a lightning storm or a motor surge.

Anything failing gets some kind of post-mortem ... the results determine if I buy that device again, or look for something better.


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## pipe (Jun 27, 2021)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Whereas, if an HVAC unit has a control board (a brain) that is problematic


Unless that HVAC unit is an inverter -- just installed two new Mitsubishi HyperHeat 24k units, to be used year-round


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

[/QUOTE]


50ShadesOfDirt said:


> In the big scheme of things, consider a low THD value as a "nice to have" but make it share dollars with all the other choices and tradeoffs you'll have to make. It should be less of a showstopper and more of a "weighting". Keep in mind that THD can come from the power grid, the genny, and just about any device _inside_ your home already. What's more likely to affect devices in your house are "power surges", from both inside and outside your home.
> 
> For a generator purchase, other factors such as total KW output, warranty (1 yr, 3 yr, 5 yr), serviceability, fuel type, base price and cost to operate, come into play, to name a few of the considerations. Sales folks and/or marketing materials don't really want you to think about this all that much, and any FUD they can throw your way, such as THD, might sway you to buy their generator first. Nothing wrong with that from a sales perspective, other than you have to defend against it with much more reading.
> 
> ...


I do use Monster surge protectors on my electronics to help with surges, but after days of reading, im nervous about things like my 3.5k frig, my sons 3k PC,or my 85 in Sony just out of warranty lol. I dont miss a meal, but like most, i am not Bezo's or Gates, and the remote thought of possibly damaging expensive toys plays upon my mind...Of course i like the raw horsepower of the non inverter gens, but geesh, most are in around 20 plus THD, On another note: would the 4 prong 30amp ends or boxes actually handle 50 amps? Is the wiring size going to the box in question or can the prongs themselves not handle 50amps 240v. I do know wire sizing is crucial in electrical, and what got me to thinking was the fact of Paralelling 2 gens, having one box mounted outside with #6 copper and adapters to run either a single gen or both when paralleled. Thanks for the input.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

I do use Monster surge protectors on my electronics to help with surges, but after days of reading, im nervous about things like my 3.5k frig, my sons 3k PC,or my 85 in Sony just out of warranty lol. I dont miss a meal, but like most, i am not Bezo's or Gates, and the remote thought of possibly damaging expensive toys plays upon my mind...Of course i like the raw horsepower of the non inverter gens, but geesh, most are in around 20 plus THD, On another note: would the 4 prong 30amp ends or boxes actually handle 50 amps? Is the wiring size going to the box in question or can the prongs themselves not handle 50amps 240v. I do know wire sizing is crucial in electrical, and what got me to thinking was the fact of Paralelling 2 gens, having one box mounted outside with #6 copper and adapters to run either a single gen or both when paralleled. Thanks for the input.
[/QUOTE]
Amazon.com found this.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

kirklandlee239 said:


> would the 4 prong 30amp ends or boxes actually handle 50 amps


You should never try to use a cord or receptacle beyond its rated amperage. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. So, if a 30A box is used, then 30 amps is the maximum current that should be put thru it. You can go the other way. A 50A receptacle can be used for a 30A circuit.



kirklandlee239 said:


> i like the raw horsepower of the non inverter gens


If that is true, then you may want to look over the list in post #15.

What size gen are you trying to shoot for? Keep in mind that people often buy a gen that is way beyond what they actually need and end up regretting it. They can go thru fuel like crazy!


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> You should never try to use a cord or receptacle beyond its rated amperage. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. So, if a 30A box is used, then 30 amps is the maximum current that should be put thru it. You can go the other way. A 50A receptacle can be used for a 30A circuit.
> 
> 
> If that is true, then you may want to look over the list in post #15.
> ...


well, i have a side by side fig, electronic baords all the bells and whistles. a standup freezer, want to run a few lights couple tvs/pc and wanted to run a 38gal backup water heater with dual 3800 watt elements( of course only on outages over 1 day) which can be cut off at breaker after heating up, Backup heat will be propane wall mounts, no power needed. Like auto's i figure theres a sweet spot on RPM/load that gives best fuel usage, for some ungodly reason my mind doesnt like to use 75/80% of a gens capacity, lol. im the odd one. Yes, i have looked at the smalle non inverters that can do 5-10% THD, but my needs would max it out, or most likely fall short of wattage i want, thanks


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

kirklandlee239 said:


> well, i have a side by side fig, electronic baords all the bells and whistles. a standup freezer, want to run a few lights couple tvs/pc and wanted to run a 38gal backup water heater with dual 3800 watt elements( of course only on outages over 1 day) which can be cut off at breaker after heating up, Backup heat will be propane wall mounts, no power needed. Like auto's i figure theres a sweet spot on RPM/load that gives best fuel usage, for some ungodly reason my mind doesnt like to use 75/80% of a gens capacity, lol. im the odd one. Yes, i have looked at the smalle non inverters that can do 5-10% THD, but my needs would max it out, or most likely fall short of wattage i want, thanks


As to the amp problem on the pig tails, i can mount a exterior panel box with a 30 amp breaker sending to the 4 prong 30 amp receptacle, and a 50 amp breaker to the Nema 50 receptacle....


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to start with an energy audit.

Make a list of all the items you want/need to operate during a power outage. You will need to use either the labels on the devices or a meter such as a Kill a Watt or similar. Once you have your list then add it all up and add a buffer that makes you comfortable such as 20-30%. If you have devices with large starting currents, then that needs to be noted as well.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to start with an energy audit.
> 
> Make a list of all the items you want/need to operate during a power outage. You will need to use either the labels on the devices or a meter such as a Kill a Watt or similar. Once you have your list then add it all up and add a buffer that makes you comfortable such as 20-30%. If you have devices with large starting currents, then that needs to be noted as well.


Sorta did that. water heaters starting loads do not vary from running , so thats a 3800watt given. My frig has a 870running watt with 1800watt starting load. freezer is a lil less that frig. combined lights tvs/PC should not exceed 1000watts at any point as electronics dont have a start load per say. should be around 6600 running watts with a possible start load of 8600 watts if i do not manually cut breakers on 1 at a time.. The Dura XP9000iH should handle this, but will be top of the capable wattage.. Of course the water heater may or may not be used depending on lenght of outage. A couple suggested the Honda's, which are a great product im sure, lol. But for my use i think buying 2 of the 9000iH's for about the same money would be better, at least if a unit does fail, i would have a back up for my back up, lol, thanks


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

kirklandlee239 said:


> Sorta did that. water heaters starting loads do not vary from running , so thats a 3800watt given. My frig has a 870running watt with 1800watt starting load. freezer is a lil less that frig. combined lights tvs/PC should not exceed 1000watts at any point as electronics dont have a start load per say. should be around 6600 running watts with a possible start load of 8600 watts if i do not manually cut breakers on 1 at a time.. The Dura XP9000iH should handle this, but will be top of the capable wattage.. Of course the water heater may or may not be used depending on lenght of outage. A couple suggested the Honda's, which are a great product im sure, lol. But for my use i think buying 2 of the 9000iH's for about the same money would be better, at least if a unit does fail, i would have a back up for my back up, lol, thanks


Its funny how they can manufacture a inverter portable gen for $2500 , but yet if you look into the pure line conditioners, they alone get into many thousands, even the small UPS systems get pretty pricey.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

First off, I hope my comments about THD won't dissuade anyone from buying a low THD genny, if that particular weighting is higher than most anything else on one's list of "must-haves".

Perhaps just be aware that, long before THD kills some electrical device in your house, power surges big (lightning) and small (other devices, motors in and around your home) will probably do the deed first. Not enough power (too small of a genny for the loads) will probably do the deed next.

What I found in powering my whole house full of electronics devices is that the genny can't be undersized, or the various devices start complaining about the _lack of power_. The devices were very happy on a 22kw generac, and mostly happy on a 12kw Duromax. Any less than 10kw or thereabouts, and I'd have a revolt on my hands, with both devices and family members walking out.

As I can't keep the Generac running, out in the country, and I can keep the Duromax's running, I just use the 12kw to keep the inverter/battery-bank fully charged (nice even load); the whole-house 120v/240v inverter then supplies any amount of pure sine wave power to anything in the house, in any combination. So again, the electrical devices are very happy.

I'd submit that you want as much power as possible, as who knows what combination of power demand the device(s) and family members will initiate ... it's more than I can predict. So, if you do want only low-THD inverter/generators, vs mostly low-THD open-frame generators like the Duromax, then perhaps getting two, and paralleling them will solve both the supposed THD problem and the power demand problem. You might still want to investigate THD or other power issues being thrown about inside the house, as all our devices care most about what they can take in, but could care less about what they throw out.

WRT newer electrical devices (refrigerators, hvac units, etc.) that have internal inverter modules, from everything I can read, their purpose is to take any kind of power in, and turn it into power suitable for consumption. They know that the power situation inside a house is wild and woolly. Whereas the control board's purpose is to monitor/regulate other functions in the device; it is still susceptible to power problems. It could be possible that if an inverter is in front of the control board, that circuit board is happier than a device without an inverter module in front of it. Perhaps an EE will weigh in on this ...

WRT hvac units in general, every HVAC vendor whose website I can look at does not tell us to stay away from generators, but they do say to have things wired up by a licensed electrician, to utilize surge protection (by the same electricians), and to utilize the biggest whole house generator sized/oversized for the possible demand. I haven't found one yet that says "no generator" should ever be utilized, nor one that says "low-THD generators only" ... still looking, but coming up dry.

I have the same house full of devices (LG appliances, LED TV's, computers of all kinds, and more), but in all my generator experience (thousands of hours per year, on the Duromax), it is the lack of power, not the quality of power, that makes devices most unhappy.

Hope this helps ...


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> every HVAC vendor whose website I can look at does not tell us to stay away from generators


Yup, information from the manufacturers concerning VFDs is sparse. I have managed to find a couple of articles from Trane, but it seems they are mostly referring to larger units than a typical home would use. I wish they would go into this whole THD issue with smaller gens so that we can have a clear picture of what concern is real and what is not.
ADM-APN019-EN (02/06): How VFDs Affect Genset Sizing (trane.com)
Harmonic distortion in electrical systems (trane.com)


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

pipe said:


> Unless that HVAC unit is an inverter -- just installed two new Mitsubishi HyperHeat 24k units, to be used year-round


pipe there ya go!
the new inverter air con units rock for sure!
question for you do they have a setting for lower power consumption yet??

from what i hear they are working on just that...
a eco setting for when on gen power so the air con unit can run at way lower compressor current but high flow on the system gas.
kinda like they do on the toyota car air con units... way lower head pressures...
high volume flow system.


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## kirklandlee239 (12 mo ago)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> First off, I hope my comments about THD won't dissuade anyone from buying a low THD genny, if that particular weighting is higher than most anything else on one's list of "must-haves".
> 
> Perhaps just be aware that, long before THD kills some electrical device in your house, power surges big (lightning) and small (other devices, motors in and around your home) will probably do the deed first. Not enough power (too small of a genny for the loads) will probably do the deed next.
> 
> ...


It does give food for thought, and more thought. Was in the HVAC field for 25+ yrs, long retired, and im sure the boards and controls have exceeded my knowledge of yrs passed, lol. Honestly, i would indeed like a larger unit, but its tit for tat. Thought of paralleling 2 of the 9000iH's. I do like the Generac home units, but do not like many features (To old i guess) from what ive read, they all require a auto switching panel installed to even work. Warranty voided if connected any other way, if only they made a whole house gen that i could run my own random test cycles, with a manual start, when i wanted it started. i still think i can flip a breaker or manual double pole double throw switch if need be, lol. So i decided to go with porty's. Like so many others, im subjected to what they offer, and normally dont get exactly what i want...Unless of course your lucky enough to have 25k pocket change, ha. 2 divorces does change a mans wallet. anyway, i'll think more on the larger Dura's or Westinghouse standard gens vs 2 of the 9000iH's. thanks for all replies.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

The duromax dual fuel inverter unit has received quite a bit of praise in its gas only version sold by harbor freight predator form. But its a brand new generator and initial quality may not translate into long term reliability. If you do go that route give us review.

Another consideration is the powerhorse 7500i from northern tool. Much cheaper then a eu7000. It isn’t duel fuel out of the box but can be easily converted with a USCarb trifuel kit. Is your house propane or will you be running separate cylinders? 






Powerhorse Inverter Generator 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse® Inverter Generator provides more power with less noise, plus low 1.5% total harmonic distortion for safely running sensit...




www.northerntool.com


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