# WGen12000DF or XP15000EH for Natgas Use – Conversion Kit Questions



## Probity (10 mo ago)

Recently bought a Westinghouse WGen12000DF (dual fuel). I don’t plan on using it with propane, but at the time I couldn’t find a gasoline-only WGen12000 so I spent a little more and got the dual fuel version. I’m now toying with the idea of making it natgas friendly but have run into an oddity regards necessary kit components to do this. Before I trip the trigger buying stuff, I’m looking for any feedback from anybody that has successfully converted either a WGen12000DF or a Duromax XP15000EH (near identical gen sets). Specifically, (1) what natgas inlet pressure at your house do you have, (2) what KN style regulator specifics do you have on your gen set and does it have a manual primer, (3) did you have to modify or install a new “improved flow” 5-way connector between regulator outlet and carburetor. Sorry for amount of detail below but felt it necessary to over-explain vs under.

I was a little surprised when I actually received my 12000DF. As per stock configuration, LP gas from your small propane tank goes first through a Kosan Type 988TW-15 twin stage regulator (6 oz/11” WC outlet setting) and then to the inlet of a Impco/Garretson KN series regulator with a 4 oz/7” WC spring, no primer, tamper resistant, 7/16” orifice. From the outlet of the Garretson regulator, it then goes through what Westinghouse calls a ‘5-way connector’ (a small manifold with 1 large inlet/4 smaller outlets) and then to the carburetor. I don’t care about the Kosan regulator as I don’t plan on using propane, but the Garretson regulator surprised me, I thought it would have been one with a 6 oz/11” WC spring. The p/n of the Garretson regulator (193291) is strange, it’s a new regulator stamped with 4 oz inlet, but not one listed in the current Impco Model KN specs, it corresponds with a superseded Garretson Onan regulator that did (does?) have a 4 ounce/7” WC spring, no primer, and 7/16” orifice. This works to my advantage as I have 4 oz/7” WC inlet at the house for natural gas. Anyway, it is what it is, maybe Westinghouse just grabbed it from the bottom of a parts bin, I don’t know…..

Both the WGen12000DF and Duromax XP1500EH have 713cc v-twin Asian engines, and except for minor differences look like they both come from the same SE Asia factory. Luckily the Westinghouse owner’s manual has some exploded view parts lists (poor as they are). I’ve been unable to find any online Duromax XP15000EH parts list. The carburetor on the 12000DF (Westinghouse ref. 9.22, p/n 322811) is called a ‘double chamber carburetor’. The ‘5-way connector’ is ref. 9.11, p/n 329925. From manual and pic from my genset:

















I checked 3 websites (USCarb/Motorsnorkel, Nash Fuel, PNG Technologies) for natgas conversion kits for either a WGen12000DF/XP15000EH.

USCarb – they offer tri-fuel kits for the gasoline-only versions of these Westinghouse/Duromax dual fuels with V-twin engines. MSK3015 - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion for WGen12000, MSK3019 - MOTOR SNORKEL TRI-FUEL (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Conversion Kit - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion for XP15000. Called ‘double barrel carb’ kits. Include a 6 oz regulator (I shouldn’t need as I already have a 4 oz), load block valve with 2 outlets, small hoses for feeding the carburetor, other hardware. No mention of needing a bigger bore/improved flow 5-way connector.

PNG – they offer natgas conversion kits for both WGen12000DF and XP15000EH (the same kit). Westinghouse Westinghouse Generator Kits (pngtec.com) and Duromax Duromax Generators (pngtec.com). For 4 oz/7” WC natgas line pressure the kit includes a new 4 oz regulator evidently with a manual primer. PNG assumes the gen sets come standard with 6 oz regulators (which is not my case). Other common kit elements include a load block valve (PNG calls it a power elbow) with 1 outlet, fittings, and a user-specified length of ¾” natgas hose with quick-connects. No mention of needing a bigger bore/improved flow 5-way connector.

Nash Fuel – they offer natgas conversion kits for either WGen12000DF/XP15000EH Natural Gas Conversion Kit Westinghouse Duromax XP15000EH Generator Dual Fuel For Sale | NASHFUEL | Propane Fuel Conversion Kit | Nash Fuel. Kit includes a 6 oz (or if you specify 4 oz) regulator (don’t know if it’s with or without primer), load block valve with 1 outlet, small fuel hose, and a new ‘full flow branch valve (what Westinghouse calls the 5-way connector) included to replace existing valve’. I asked Nash Fuel about their “full flow branch valve” – is it actually a different p/n than the Westinghouse one, how much bigger bore is it vs. the Westinghouse one, etc. They didn’t really answer me, just said yes it's a higher flow version than what Westinghouse has. They have none in stock so it’s academic anyway.

With Nash, I can’t figure out why a bigger 5-way connector is needed. If I was going to run just propane, that 5-way connector is supposedly just fine but not fine for natgas? Doesn’t make sense to me.

With PNG, their 4 oz regulator kit has a manual primer, I think my existing 4 oz regulator with no primer should be fine.

With USCarb, their kits seem applicable only for gasoline-only versions and a load block valve with 2 outlets will complicate matter for me.

Anyway, any feedback appreciated.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

investigate the 5 way.
it might be the orifice for the system..
hard to tell what is on the inside till you take a look with the hoses removed.
you need maybe 20-30% more flow with NG.
and that is where a screw style load block works well.

so are you wanting tri fuel out of this?
or just gasoline NG?


----------



## Probity (10 mo ago)

Thanks for reply. I'm only wanting to gasoline-NG the Wgen12000DF, not tri-fuel it. In this post-covid "wait on everything" era, I'm finding too many things basically un-obtainium, like large enough propane tank (120 or 250 gal.) to allow running for consecutive days intermittently (like I had to do with my gasoline-only Champion 6250W/5000W open frame inverter after Ida for 8 days), plus they're pricey too.

Yeah I've procrastinated pulling the '5-way', mainly because I have nothing to compare it to bore/ID wise. But I guess I'll have to do that just to see what the innards look like. I am intrigued by what ajnuzzi says in this thread (2) Question on back up home generator and trifuel conversion | Page 2 | Power Equipment Forum post #21. He doesn't even have a load block at his regulator outlet, he says when the load block/power elbow valve was installed the 12000DF acted a bit starved for fuel but with just a plain adapter fitting Everbilt 1/2 in. Barb x 3/8 in. MIP Brass Adapter Fitting 800199 (homedepot.com) on the regulator outlet it now runs fine. I "think" he mentioned in other threads that he has 50 ft. of 3/4" natgas supply hose going to his WGen12000DF so I'm guessing he was borderline with the 50 ft. of line at the load block. He apparently is using the stock 5-way the gen set came with.

I'm new at this - can you elaborate a little on your comment that I need ~20%-30% more flow with NG? Thanks


----------



## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

likely needs 10% or higher than that , more flow of ngas to run versus propane.
so yes, the orfice needs to be bigger.
Perhaps it can be driled out.

Also can your gas meter deliver enough gas flow to keep up with demand?
I know gas utility can install a meter that can flow more ngas.


----------



## Probity (10 mo ago)

sdowney717 said:


> likely needs 10% or higher than that , more flow of ngas to run versus propane.
> so yes, the orfice needs to be bigger.
> Perhaps it can be driled out.
> 
> ...


Thanks. As noted above I'll have to physically pull and look at that infamous 5-way connector (which is basically just a manifold with 1 size inlet and 4 outlets) to verify what it looks like inside. I'd be very surprised if it's actually got orifices in the flow path, but we'll see. On the gas meter should be fine, it's an AC-250, my portable gen use is for hurricane season when I won't need using my natgas furnaces, so demand other than genset would be conventional water heaters and cooktop.

Just find it odd that 1 company (Nash) says I need a new (bigger?) 5-way manifold, 2 companies (PNG, USCarb) say I don't.


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Probity said:


> Just find it odd that 1 company (Nash) says I need a new (bigger?) 5-way manifold, 2 companies (PNG, USCarb) say I don't.


Some of the conversion kits restrict the carb inlet to the point that the gen will no longer run properly on gasoline. The NG adapter must be removed when running gasoline. This could be the reason you are being advised to go with a bigger manifold as you are wanting to maintain the ability to run on gasoline.


----------



## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Some of the conversion kits restrict the carb inlet to the point that the gen will no longer run properly on gasoline. The NG adapter must be removed when running gasoline. This could be the reason you are being advised to go with a bigger manifold as you are wanting to maintain the ability to run on gasoline.


Are they doing that to force engine to suck more flow from the Ngas meter?
Or is it a side effect of not having a utility meter that can flow a sufficient amount of required Ngas?
Or something else, like having to do with the gas carb venturi size?


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The propane/NG adapter causes a restriction of air flow in order to create enough vacuum for the demand valve to operate. Unfortunately, it can screw with the A/F ratio when running on gasoline.

It does not necessarily happen with all installations. It seems that if the carb has plenty of capability to run more HP, then it is less likely that the adapter will cause an issue. For example, if the carb is rated for 6-10 HP engines and it is on a 6HP gen, then the adapter is less likely to cause a problem. Conversely, if the 10HP carb is on a 10HP engine then there is less wiggle room for installing anything in front of the carb without causing a problem.


----------



## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

How do you know which pressure supply you have of NGas, my fuel source is Dominion Power in SEast VA
I have read before that NGas pressure very low.

Example kit, lists 3 different NGas pressures, each kit must have some kind of orfice difference I suppose.
One is 6-8 oz, another 4 oz, another 2 psi





Troybilt 30594 Tri-Fuel (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Kit


Troybilt 30594 Tri-Fuel Kit uses an adapter that makes it possible to operate an engine on three different fuels Propane, Natural Gas, and Gasoline.




centuryfuelproducts.com


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

sdowney717 said:


> How do you know which pressure supply you have of NGas


Calling your supplier may give you that answer, but maybe not.

Measuring the pressure is the most accurate way to find out. You can do it with a manometer. The pressure is usually measured in inches of water column. The typical operating pressure for natural gas appliances is around 7 inches of water column (WC) or, or about 0.25 psi, or about 4 ounces of pressure per square inch.

There are two pressures that you would be interested in knowing. The first is the static pressure supplied by your meter. The second is the pressure at your gen's demand valve with it running full load. The pressure with it running full load will be less than static because of the line drop. The longer the line, and the smaller its size, then greater the line drop.

Manometers can cost anywhere from about $30 to upwards of $300. A DIY manometer can be made for just a few bucks. See a photo in this thread (post #170) for a manometer that reads inches of water column...
(1) Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start — 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts | Page 9 | Power Equipment Forum 

Just a warning about those...don't have them connected to the gas line when there might be a suction created. For example, if you have it connected to the gas line at the gen and shut off the NG valve with the engine running. The water in the manometer will get sucked into the engine as it is being starved of fuel.


----------



## sdowney717 (12 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Calling your supplier may give you that answer, but maybe not.
> 
> Measuring the pressure is the most accurate way to find out. You can do it with a manometer. The pressure is usually measured in inches of water column. The typical operating pressure for natural gas appliances is around 7 inches of water column (WC) or, or about 0.25 psi, or about 4 ounces of pressure per square inch.
> 
> ...


I have never done the conversion due to the extreme rarity of having my power go out. We can go for years with steady power, and when the power is out, its just moments or at most a few hours such as a tree falls taking out the neighborhood.


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

I have the wgen12000df that I purchased about 3 months ago and converted to natural gas. It was the easiest conversion I've done yet (i've converted a durostar ds12000eh, westinghouse wgen12000df) and it also runs the best on all three fuels. The conversion on this generator is SO SIMPLE. Go on you tube and search up the video PNG made on how to convert it and just watch it carefully. Search "westinghouse wgen12000df natural gas" in you tube and it's the second video that pops up. They actually demonstrate on a Duromax 15000. I did swap the regulator with one that I had from my durostar ds12000eh kit (garretson kn 03-122 6-8oz) because the one that comes with the wgen12000df doesn't have a primer. I've got a 50 ft 3/4" hose that I use to hook mine up with so I really need a primer. I took a hole saw and cut a little hole on the metal plate that you bolt the regulator to so that I could actually have access to the primer button. I have 6-8" wc at my house and am running it off a 50 ft hose right off my meter. Back to the conversion, simply bypass the propane regulator, get a street elbow and go directly in to the regulator and hook your quick connect to that. Then you need one of these from home depot:








Everbilt 1/2 in. Barb x 3/8 in. MIP Brass Adapter Fitting 800199 - The Home Depot


These hose barbs are made of durable, corrosion resistant and lead-free brass while conforming to NSF 61 and 372 and are registered in Mass. They have several barbs to hold when inserted into tubing. Best for use with plastic, vinyl or rubber tubing. Pair with a hose clamp for a more secure fit.



www.homedepot.com





The fitting that is on the top of the regulator you simply replace it with that fitting from home depot and hook the hose going to the carb right up to it. I originally was using a load block but it wasn't letting enough fuel in. It ran fine but when I hit it with a load I could hear it was bogging down. As soon as I swapped that one fitting out it ran amazing, the thing barely hiccups when I turn my AC on. This worked perfectly and I pulled my plugs after running for two hours and it wasn't too rich or too lean, just right. If you already have your quick connects and 3/4" natural gas hose you literally just need a 3/4" street eblow, nipple, and that fitting from home depot. I did put a ball valve on mine as well but I guess you could skip that if you were trying to do it on the cheap. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want pictures of my set up. The best thing about this generator is that after doing the conversion it still runs perfectly on gasoline, and I could run it off propane if I really wanted to with the new regulator, I just just have to get the proper fittings. I could also easily return it to stock too like nothing ever happened.

As far as what your pressure is your meter should say on it what your WC is or you could call your gas company and they should know. Post a couple pics if you can. Now you should be able to do this conversion without swapping the regulator it will just take a minute of the generator cranking before the fuel will reach the carb depending on how long your hose is. I would suggest just using the garrettson regulator that came on the generator before buying another one. 

The only "problem" I encountered was how to gap my plugs. Supposed to be .02 for natural gas .03 for gasoline. I do want the ability to run both so I just bought two ngk iridium plugs and gapped at .025.


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> The propane/NG adapter causes a restriction of air flow in order to create enough vacuum for the demand valve to operate. Unfortunately, it can screw with the A/F ratio when running on gasoline.
> 
> It does not necessarily happen with all installations. It seems that if the carb has plenty of capability to run more HP, then it is less likely that the adapter will cause an issue. For example, if the carb is rated for 6-10 HP engines and it is on a 6HP gen, then the adapter is less likely to cause a problem. Conversely, if the 10HP carb is on a 10HP engine then there is less wiggle room for installing anything in front of the carb without causing a problem.


This is absolutely correct for installations with a venturi adapter, where you have to stick something in between the carb and the airbox. Had this problem on my westinghouse wgen9500df and durostar ds12000eh (same motor). Neither would run on gasoline or propane after converting to natural gas. The wgen12000df has a 1/2" hose going to an inlet that is already large enough for natural gas so no modifications are needed that would mess with the integrity of the carb running on gasoline. Only have to swap the fitting on the outlet of the KN regulator and presto, you're running on NG


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

I have seen (and enjoyed) ajnuzzi’s posts about converting the wgen 12000df to natural gas. I just bought one myself, and wondering if I need to get the load block or just use the nipple adapter you recommend from HD. I was going to order a load block from PNG (only place I found that showed one available), but from your experience it seems like yours ran fine without it. (Plus, the shipping for the load block is more than the load block!). A little concerned about the A/F ratio though. Don't want to burn more NG than necessary, but also don't want to ruin engine either. I have a 1" full port ball valve off my 1 1/4' gas line, and adapt down to to a 15 ft, 3/4" hose with open flow quick connects. My NG pressure is 7" WC, and I noted that the KN regulator on the wgen is rated for that as well (4 oz). I'm getting ready to test it with the nipple. Although the regulator does not have a primer, I'm thinking it should be easy to purge the line and connect the QC coupler and get it to start fairly quickly. I am leaving the original plugs in there for the trial, but have NGK irridiums on order. Any tips/hints/suggestions would be much appreciated. I’m not going to load the gen, jus want to see how/if it will run. Or should I wait until I put in and gap the NKGs?

Also, I would LIKE to be able to start/run my 3 1/2 ton AC on the gen if it can start it. I believe this 16 SEER American Std (Trane) uses a TXV that holds head pressure, and research on soft start kits seems to indicate they don't help much with that. Any experience you wouldn't mind sharing? Thanks for your consideration!


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

mmurret said:


> I have seen (and enjoyed) ajnuzzi’s posts about converting the wgen 12000df to natural gas. I just bought one myself, and wondering if I need to get the load block or just use the nipple adapter you recommend from HD. I was going to order a load block from PNG (only place I found that showed one available), but from your experience it seems like yours ran fine without it. (Plus, the shipping for the load block is more than the load block!). A little concerned about the A/F ratio though. Don't want to burn more NG than necessary, but also don't want to ruin engine either. I have a 1" full port ball valve off my 1 1/4' gas line, and adapt down to to a 15 ft, 3/4" hose with open flow quick connects. My NG pressure is 7" WC, and I noted that the KN regulator on the wgen is rated for that as well (4 oz). I'm getting ready to test it with the nipple. Although the regulator does not have a primer, I'm thinking it should be easy to purge the line and connect the QC coupler and get it to start fairly quickly. I am leaving the original plugs in there for the trial, but have NGK irridiums on order. Any tips/hints/suggestions would be much appreciated. I’m not going to load the gen, jus want to see how/if it will run. Or should I wait until I put in and gap the NKGs?
> 
> Also, I would LIKE to be able to start/run my 3 1/2 ton AC on the gen if it can start it. I believe this 16 SEER American Std (Trane) uses a TXV that holds head pressure, and research on soft start kits seems to indicate they don't help much with that. Any experience you wouldn't mind sharing? Thanks for your consideration!


As far as running rich I don’t know how to adjust without a load block. I’ve heard of people using a ball valve between the regulator and carb but I don’t think the generators regulator is going to allow too much NG into the carb but I could be wrong. In my case I had to ditch the load block out of necessity. You could try the HD fitting, run for an hour and take a look at your plugs. I can tell my A/f ratio is good based off how the plugs look and how the generator responds audibly to a load. These small simple engines are pretty easy to tell if they’re running right by the sound with/without load and the plugs. Make sure whenever you do get around to testing it you do test with a proper load because if you’re barely getting enough fuel it will idle fine and then bog down under load. I wouldn’t mess with the plugs until your all set and done as far as getting your conversion running right. Otherwise you may be fouling $10 plugs while trying to fine tune your setup.

As far as the AC is concerned mine was JUST BARELY able to start my 3.5 ton Coleman unit without a soft start. I did put a soft start on and it helped a lot although you still hear it struggle a little when it fired up. I would look at the starting amps of the unit before trying to run it and just do some load management- shut off anything with a large draw right before you go to start the ac


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

ajnuzzi said:


> As far as running rich I don’t know how to adjust without a load block. I’ve heard of people using a ball valve between the regulator and carb but I don’t think the generators regulator is going to allow too much NG into the carb but I could be wrong. In my case I had to ditch the load block out of necessity. You could try the HD fitting, run for an hour and take a look at your plugs. I can tell my A/f ratio is good based off how the plugs look and how the generator responds audibly to a load. These small simple engines are pretty easy to tell if they’re running right by the sound with/without load and the plugs. Make sure whenever you do get around to testing it you do test with a proper load because if you’re barely getting enough fuel it will idle fine and then bog down under load. I wouldn’t mess with the plugs until your all set and done as far as getting your conversion running right. Otherwise you may be fouling $10 plugs while trying to fine tune your setup.
> 
> As far as the AC is concerned mine was JUST BARELY able to start my 3.5 ton Coleman unit without a soft start. I did put a soft start on and it helped a lot although you still hear it struggle a little when it fired up. I would look at the starting amps of the unit before trying to run it and just do some load management- shut off anything with a large draw right before you go to start the ac


 Just wanted to add an update to what I found, as well as ask for help with another situation. As far as the load block was concerned, like you said, it did not allow enough flow even wide open. I had to use the adapter fitting. Once I had done that, I could add more load. As far as the A/C issue, the generator was able to start the A/C by itself, but it bogged down greatly before picking up again. The specs on my 3 1/2 ton American Standard A/C show LRA of 109 A and RLA of 16.7A. I only have a 40 yr old Amprobe current meter, so I couldn’t measure inrush current. But using my Fluke 87 meter to measure min/max for 100 msec, the peak was 270 V and the min was 180 when starting. Once it got over the initial inrush (and bog down), the gen ran fine. Pulled about 11 amps running. I bought and installed a Micro Air Easy Start, the first learned start showed 50 A, and after 5 learns the inrush was limited to 30 A. On utility power, using the min/max meter function again, the max was 256 V and the min was 240 V when the A/C kicked in. On the gen and the Easy Start, the max/min was the same! Gen barely noticed it. So the Easy Start lived up to the hype. FYI – found the cheapest price online at a place called WATER YACHT SOLUTIONS (wateryachtsolutions.com) - $325 flat, no tax, no shipping for the ASY-368-X48-Blue.

However, I can’t seem to get the max output I was expecting from the unit (thinking 10/12 kW or 20% reduction from gasoline). Would you mind telling me what you were able to get on yours? When I use my old dryer (18 A) and try to add the broiler on the oven (12 A) it struggles up and down. So I can’t get even 7 kw on natural gas. I can get 20-25 A no problem. I used a Robinair gas pressure meter and took readings at the regulator input and the input to the 15’, ¾” diameter hose, and when struggling, the meter is bouncing between 6.5 and 7.5 WC on both ends. Not sure what this is telling me. I don’t think there is any issue with the meter or piping. The gas meter is rated for 630 C.F.H. The output fittings are 1 ¼” that go into a 1 ½” underground pipe for about 50’, then come out of the ground to a 1 ¼ riser into the house. I had a plumber install a 1” tee w/full port ball valve off the riser, and adapted down to full port ¾” QC fittings. The fact the pressure is just bouncing and not dropping significantly from the 7” WC reading seem to indicate that I don’t have a flow problem Any insight would be appreciated. I could try running on gasoline and see if I can get the full rated 12/15 kw with that – at least tell me the gen is good. But really did not want to put gasoline in it unless I have to. I bought the unit as an “open box” from Westinghouse on ebay. It was supposed to have less than 2 hours on it, and when I received it the hour meter did indeed show 0 hours (unless they reset it). I ran it for the 5 hour break in on propane from a grill tank, but only loaded it with about 3500 watts intermittently. Still using the factory spark plugs. Anyone able to get more out of theirs?


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

change the plug to ngk iridium.
shoot a video of the bouncing needle.

it could be a bad or wrong demand regulator. that can starve the gen.
what is your cc on the engine? and how many cyl?

if it is 2 cyl take the cc from the charts times 2 for how large of piping.

so on the long run to the gen
what is the pressure?
you might need a bit higher for the piping.

also check the quick disconnects for flow....
a bit of work with a Dremel on the male side can help...
open up the side a bit.


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

Thanks for the reply, Paul (that was quick!). I have a brief video - see link Bouncing needle This shot was at the output of the 1 ¼” line going to the 1” ball valve. I also used a tee right at the regulator and the reading was the same. When running less than the 7 kW the meter holds steady at 7” WC. Engine is 713cc OHV V-Twin, so about 24 HP. Supposedly the unit was load bank tested (although not on NG) by Westinghouse, so I would assume the regulator is good. It is set for 4 oz (7”WC). Also attached pic. I did not understand your statement “_if it is 2 cyl take the cc from the charts times 2 for how large of piping_”, but from other online charts it appears 1 ¼” piping is good for a 50’ run for a 24 HP engine. I do have ngk iridium plugs on hand but have not installed them yet per suggestion by ajnuzzi in post #15. Suggestion on Dremeling the QCs sounds plausible, but would do that as last resort if issue is not enough volume. On the other hand, the factory specs on propane are Propane: 10,800 Running Watts | 13,500 Peak Watts, so maybe I am expecting too much on NG?


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

you need a higher flow rate on NG than on LP.. it is the therms or BTU difference on the two fuels..

unless the NG line is not full flow purged yet??
could have some left over air in the line???

i will have to do some real math...
the numbers look too close to boarder line at first glance...

but i over kill on the flow on the systems here...
i like 1 inch line on gx390 hondas to the shut off just before the hose to the demand regulator...
it took a long time to purge the air out of a short 15 foot run at 1 inch...
let alone at 50 feet...
any 90 deg fittings in that 50 feet???

i would run 2 demand regulators...
one for each cyl...
that would help big time...
and gets the flow rates back to good numbers.
and stop the flutter on the demand regulator diaphragm.


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

mmurret said:


> Thanks for the reply, Paul (that was quick!). I have a brief video - see link Bouncing needle This shot was at the output of the 1 ¼” line going to the 1” ball valve. I also used a tee right at the regulator and the reading was the same. When running less than the 7 kW the meter holds steady at 7” WC. Engine is 713cc OHV V-Twin, so about 24 HP. Supposedly the unit was load bank tested (although not on NG) by Westinghouse, so I would assume the regulator is good. It is set for 4 oz (7”WC). Also attached pic. I did not understand your statement “_if it is 2 cyl take the cc from the charts times 2 for how large of piping_”, but from other online charts it appears 1 ¼” piping is good for a 50’ run for a 24 HP engine. I do have ngk iridium plugs on hand but have not installed them yet per suggestion by ajnuzzi in post #15. Suggestion on Dremeling the QCs sounds plausible, but would do that as last resort if issue is not enough volume. On the other hand, the factory specs on propane are Propane: 10,800 Running Watts | 13,500 Peak Watts, so maybe I am expecting too much on NG?


I have never pushed my gen that much past 7kw. Running my AC was mostly the hardest I went and it ran no problems but I did notice for mine at least it seems to run the same on gasoline or NG. What I mean is the audible “bog” you hear is basically the same between all three fuels with similar loads. I was surprised by that because my last generator CLEARLY struggled more on NG. I guess you could try changing the plugs but unless one of your plugs is fouled I don’t think you’ll see THAT much of a performance difference. I would suggest load testing on gasoline or propane and rule out that it’s running well on other fuels. Maybe someone can chime in who has actually load tested a wgen12000 but from what I understand a lot of these ratings are overestimated - I would not be shocked if 7000 running watts on NG is all we’re gonna get. I’ve heard it’s anywhere from 20-30% loss for switching from gasoline to NG. If it’s closer to 30% and then you have a little bit of loss for the ratings being inflated then you’re right there at 7000. I am curious though I hope someone chimes in that’s actually tested one. For reference my meter is 6-8” wc 275cfh and I’m running a 50ft 3/4” hose.


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

Many thanks for your help and input, guys. It would be nice if anyone on the forum could chime in if they have run any load tests on this or similar rated gensets. I’m probably being anal about this, since I really don’t have much of an electrical load in the house other than starting the A/C that I would view as being critical. Being in the North Dallas area, I really don’t have many power outages – don’t think our neighborhood has ever been off more than a day or so, and that was due to a bad xfrmr feeding several houses. Even during the notorious ice event in ‘21, the power didn’t go out. BUT…the way things are going…you never know. If push comes to shove, we can tough out the loss of A/C, but if another ice event occurred, I would like to keep the pipes from freezing. That in itself would pay for the generator/hookup. Although the price of burning the NG would come into play at some point!

I’m attaching a few photos of my layout since Paul @ iowagold seems pretty savvy about such things. But here is an overview of my setup: The gas meter is rated for 630 C.F.H. I had this put in some years ago when the original, smaller meter was leaking. I told the techs who came out to replace it that I may be going with a tankless water heater in the future, and they had this one on their truck that they put in (Photo 1). I did wind up installing a 180K BTU tankless years ago, so its safe to say the line is well purged. So from there it goes to an underground 1½” line. The plumber who installed the takeoff for the generator found an undergound leak when doing the installation, and we had to dig out and replace the riser, so that’s how we know that line is 1 ½” . Photo 2 shows the 1 ¼ “ riser where the 1” tap and ball valve are (stepped down to ¾ QC). So l would say we have six 90s in the line, plus one ¾” 90 street elbow into the regulator. I have a 15’ hose with female QC, and its quick and easy to purge the line when starting. Cranks off in about 5 seconds. Of course, these ¾ couplings are not a full ¾ bore, but then again with the regulator orifice being 7/16, and the output being 3/8, I would think I’m good, but apparently not.













Any simple way of determining flow? Is it possible that the gas meter/regulator is at fault, since I get gauge fluctuation at the 1 ¼” pipe before hitting the 1” take off? I’m reading this off a grill connection to the 1 ¼ pipe. Might this be indicative of a flow problem upstream, too many 90s , etc. or just due to inertia of the needle due to generator consumption/starvation!

Atmos Energy, the gas supplier,state son their website (Gas Quality Specifications) that the Btu - minimum 950, maximum 1100) at 14.65 psi dry.


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

mmurret said:


> l would say we have six 90s in the line, plus one ¾” 90 street elbow into the regulator.


That's a lot of 90s. Each 90 is equivalent to about 4-5 feet of pipe.


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

Thanks, GenKnot. Guess I'm having trouble understanding if the final "hole" the gas goes through is 7/16 / 3/8 (regulator in/out), the much bigger piping upstream shouldn't be much of a limiting factor. But I am no expert in fluid dynamics (or much else for that matter!). I will wait until the next maintenance run to try either gas or propane. Anyone know if I can run a 10 kw load (for a short time) on a grill tank without it freezing up?


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

mmurret said:


> ...the much bigger piping upstream shouldn't be much of a limiting factor.


Oh, but it is.

Flow thru restrictions whether it is bends, small diameter pipe, or whatever is what gets you. You want to have the most pressure (hopefully it is near meter outlet pressure) available at the final destination. Flow is what drops the pressure. If there is no flow, then the pressure at the gen end of your run would be meter pressure.

Think of it this way. If you are using your 100' long garden hose wide open, much of the water pressure is lost as it travels thru the hose. If you stop the flow, then the pressure at the end of the hose builds up to whatever the city pressure is to your house.


----------



## kvandrews (6 mo ago)

Thanks to each of you. The technical info sharing that has been shared really helped me not to give up getting my WGen12000df converted to NG. I live in SE Louisiana so having a back up generator is an absolute must. I am not really knowledgeable on this stuff or really technical, but I have good hands and can follow directions well.

I broke in my WGen12000df on gasoline. I ran it for 3 1/2 hours with my home a/c, lights, tv and a ceiling fans being on. On gasoline it barely hiccupped each time my Trane 4 ton a/c cycled on.

I later purchased and installed the Nash Fuel conversion kit. I was working to get this generator NG converted and load tested before hurricane season started, but ran in to a few issues. I initially installed ~60 ft o the 3/4" id underground Home Flex NG riser kit from my gas meter to my back yard in addition to a 15' hose from the gas riser quick connect to the generator and later discovered that I needed to increase the 3/4" Home Flex to 1" due to the size of this generator and the recommendation from a friend who installed a few whole home generators. Before I replaced the 3/4" home flex, I had my NG provider come out and increase my gas pressure from 4 oz/.25 psig to a little under 8 oz. .5 psig. Max inlet of the regulator is 8 oz so I wanted to stay below that. It took what seems like forever to bleed the air from the 3/4" Home Flex gas riser kit and 15 foot hose. Once I was sure that I had NG to the regulator, the generator would start and run for short periods. I could not keep it running no matter what different set up I tried with or without the Nash Fuels conversion kit. I tinkered with it for quite some time. 

However, I bit the bullet and I replaced the 3/4" Home Flex NG riser kit with a 1" kit (yes, I had to dig up 18" deep piping that I had already covered up) and added a 1/2" bleeder valve upstream of the hose quick connection near the Home Flex gas riser and another 1/2" bleeder valve at the generator inlet upstream of the regulator. After air freeing for some time, the generator started up and ran ok without load on it. I had replaced the original regulator with the regulator (primer included) from the Nash Fuels conversion kit as well as the hose from that kit that has a smaller diameter than the original one that came with the generator. When I placed a load on it, the generator shut down. Then I changed out the branch valve (5 way valve) with the larger bore one supplied with the conversion kit from Nash Fuels. After that, it started up w/o needing to be primed and ran really well. I placed a load on it and it ran my whole home with the a/c, ceiling fans, tv and microwave running. It bogged down a little when the a/c cycled on, but this thing seems to have run really well for the hour or so that I tested it on NG. 

So now I would like to fine tune my set up. After reading what has been shared I may need to see how it runs on gasoline after changing out the branch valve just in case I ever need to run on gasoline again. Additionally, do I need to purchase and .025 gap new spark plugs for NG/Gasoline? Finally, I just looked at a Micro-Air Easy Start/Soft Start and I am considering installing one on my a/c to allow it to slow start, reduce start up amp draw, increase generator performance when the a/c cycles on and likely extend my a/c compressor life. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

kvandrews said:


> Thanks to each of you. The technical info sharing that has been shared really helped me not to give up getting my WGen12000df converted to NG. I live in SE Louisiana so having a back up generator is an absolute must. I am not really knowledgeable on this stuff or really technical, but I have good hands and can follow directions well.
> 
> I broke in my WGen12000df on gasoline. I ran it for 3 1/2 hours with my home a/c, lights, tv and a ceiling fans being on. On gasoline it barely hiccupped each time my Trane 4 ton a/c cycled on.
> 
> ...


I have a westinghouse 12000df and I am trying to convert mine to NG. So I have 1 question. Is the full flow branch valve included in Nash Fuel kit larger than the factory one? I recently bout the nash kit and the 5 way branch valve wasn’t included. I think they gave me wrong kit. Looks like a universal kit because it has a bunch of useless fittings that I don’t need and different size hoses than what I need. I took apart the factory branch valve to look at it and it is orifficed down with brass inserts. So maybe all you have to do is remove them or that is all Nash did to a factory branch valve. I dunno.


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> investigate the 5 way.
> it might be the orifice for the system..
> hard to tell what is on the inside till you take a look with the hoses removed.
> you need maybe 20-30% more flow with NG.
> ...


 the 5 way connector is indeed one of the orrifices of the system. I have same gen and took a look at mine and it has brass inserted orifices in each of the ports. All nash probably did was remove them from existing factory part.


----------



## kvandrews (6 mo ago)

Yes, to me it seems that the threaded brass offices were removed. Other than that, it looks to be the same.

I would pack that kit back up and have them ship to you the kit that you ordered. 

On a different note, it would be good to know what the recommended max run time on Natural Gas before shutting the WGen12000DF to cool? The power outage in my local area after Ida lasted a few weeks. I'd imagine that it would not be good to run for an extended time. How may hours per day should the generator be powered down when running on Natural Gas?


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

kvandrews said:


> Yes, to me it seems that the threaded brass offices were removed. Other than that, it looks to be the same.
> 
> I would pack that kit back up and have them ship to you the kit that you ordered.
> 
> On a different note, it would be good to know what the recommended max run time on Natural Gas before shutting the WGen12000DF to cool? The power outage in my local area after Ida lasted a few weeks. I'd imagine that it would not be good to run for an extended time. How may hours per day should the generator be powered down when running on Natural Gas?


Yea, I kinda figured that’s all it was. Thanks for the confirmation.
Oh yea. Well I just got it in mail a few days ago and I talked to them today about missing parts. He said he’ll get back to me but hasn’t yet. I am not so sure about the regulator either. I have 4oz pressure from regulator at house so I told him I need the 4oz reg. I got the 039-31173-1. The only thing stamped on it os 8oz max. There is nothing stamped on the inlet so I have no clue. I tried researching the model number and coming up with different numbers with a fewof them with same model number. I dunno. Maybe that model is like ait comes universal with only a max and everything else it customized by adjusting inlet spring and putting whatever orifice you want in there.

I remember seeing somewhere on it( think it was a sticker) that said 1/2” orifice but sticker must have fell off by me just handling it a couple times.

but the kit has. 1/2” hose,3/8 hose,and 5/8 hose.. and a bunch of useless fitting that I dont need like these T fittings and 90’s. I honestly don’t know what all of that is for.I think all I need is the 1/2” stuff from outlet of reg to branch valve. 
I didn’t even get any 3/4”hose or fittings or shutooff valve for inlet on reg but I am not exactly sure if that was supposed to even come in the kit.

They don’t really tell you what’s in the kit exactly. I only went with Nash rather than PNG just because nash said you need the full flow branch valve and png says no because it’s not included in their kit.

Did yours come with the material for the inlet on regulator?

I haven’t even thought of that about if the generator will run hotter with natural gas versus gas or propane. That is a very good question.


----------



## kvandrews (6 mo ago)

I think that's the same regulator that I received. It also did not have the 4 oz marking on it, but it works. My NG pressure was also 4oz. I had it increased to just a little below 8 oz as the regulator inlet max is 8 oz. I wanted to make sure I got a sufficient amount of NG to the regulator. My NG service tech increased it. After he realize that I may attempt to further increase it he said that i cannot increase it above 8oz as it would affect the NG appliances in the house. You can increase yourself at the NG meter if you have a pressure gage or an ounce gage. 4 oz is .25 psig/8 oz .5 psig. 

The kit does not come with the 3/4" fittings on the inlet of the regulator. When you purchase the fittings at Home Depot/Ace/Lowes/your local piping supply whare house, I'd also recommend adding a bleeder at the inlet of the regulator to purge out air. Save yourself some time and effort since it takes a while (multiple start attempts) before all the air is out of the hose and you are getting mainly NG to the regulator. I also added a bleeder at my NG riser.


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

kvandrews said:


> I think that's the same regulator that I received. It also did not have the 4 oz marking on it, but it works. My NG pressure was also 4oz. I had it increased to just a little below 8 oz as the regulator inlet max is 8 oz. I wanted to make sure I got a sufficient amount of NG to the regulator. My NG service tech increased it. After he realize that I may attempt to further increase it he said that i cannot increase it above 8oz as it would affect the NG appliances in the house. You can increase yourself at the NG meter if you have a pressure gage or an ounce gage. 4 oz is .25 psig/8 oz .5 psig.
> 
> The kit does not come with the 3/4" fittings on the inlet of the regulator. When you purchase the fittings at Home Depot/Ace/Lowes/your local piping supply whare house, I'd also recommend adding a bleeder at the inlet of the regulator to purge out air. Save yourself some time and effort since it takes a while (multiple start attempts) before all the air is out of the hose and you are getting mainly NG to the regulator. I also added a bleeder at my NG riser.
> View attachment 12331
> View attachment 12332


Nice setup. Good idea with bleeder.Is that T with shutoff valve your bleeder? Aint that what the primer is for on regulator? how long is your hose? I know the gas supply regulator at meter has an adjustable setting. So probably could crank it up a bit. Yea, I’m still learning this. also from southeast Louisiana.


----------



## kvandrews (6 mo ago)

Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName said:


> Nice setup. Good idea with bleeder.Is that T with shutoff valve your bleeder? Aint that what the primer is for on regulator? how long is your hose? I know the gas supply regulator at meter has an adjustable setting. So probably could crank it up a bit. Yea, I’m still learning this. also from southeast Louisiana.


Yes, 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/2" and 1" x 1" x 1/2" at the riser. Even with the primer it took a while so I added the bleeders. Cranked right up after bleeding off the air.


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

kvandrews said:


> Yes, 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/2" and 1" x 1" x 1/2" at the riser. Even with the primer it took a while so I added the bleeders. Cranked right up after bleeding off the air.


Yea, I might steal that idea with bleeders.lol.where you bought the hose from? Best price I seen was centuryfuelproducts.com


----------



## kvandrews (6 mo ago)

Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName said:


> Yea, I might steal that idea with bleeders.lol.where you bought the hose from? Best price I seen was centuryfuelproducts.com


SHINESTAR 15FT 3/4-Inch Natural Gas Hose with Quick Connect Fitting, Propane to Natural Gas Conversion Kit for Construction Heaters and More NG Appliance https://a.co/d/iurcKb3


----------



## Pullmarkbird (6 mo ago)

ajnuzzi said:


> Then you need one of these from home depot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ajnuzzi, ?4u, i'm finally getting around to converting my wgen12000df. Did the factory connector barb that you replaced on the KN regulator, have a smaller orifice than the one you got from Home Depot?


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

Pullmarkbird said:


> ajnuzzi, ?4u, i'm finally getting around to converting my wgen12000df. Did the factory connector barb that you replaced on the KN regulator, have a smaller orifice than the one you got from Home Depot?


Yes the factory fitting was much smaller than the one in the link above.


----------



## Can’tThinkOfAGoodUserName (6 mo ago)

kvandrews said:


> SHINESTAR 15FT 3/4-Inch Natural Gas Hose with Quick Connect Fitting, Propane to Natural Gas Conversion Kit for Construction Heaters and More NG Appliance https://a.co/d/iurcKb3


Sorry for late reply. Yea I seen those but I don’t like that bar across connector. That could act as an orifice. Better to keep the true 3/4” all the way through.


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

Finally able to update this. Won’t bore you with ALL the issues/problems, but here is what went down:

I have a 199K BTU Takagi tankless heater. Never noticed it before, but after having gas tech come out and say my line was too small to furnish gen needs, I tried opening several faucets at >120 degree setting, and sure enough the pressure started bouncing as in my previous post. Per Atmos Energy tech’s suggestion, had them provide me with 2 psi pressure to the meter and change some fittings/nipples (no charge). See photo to compare with my previous post. Kept the same meter, but had to change regulator and piping.









Had to have plumber install regulator to drop 2 psi to 7” wc to house. See photo. (note that regulator is overkill, but I got it at a good price NOS off ebay).










Meanwhile generator testing on gasoline showed same limits as on NG. Could only get about 7kw on gasoline as well.

Had to return generator to Westinghouse. This took a while. Opened case online on 8/20.Nearest service center about 30 miles away (AltaQuip in Dallas). Had to rent utility trailer to haul it there ($30). They did not have ability to test full 50 amp load. Sat there a few weeks and I pinged Westinghouse on this. Factory suspected AVR, and sent a replacement. AltaQuip installed, but again, they could not fully load test. Plus, the original gen had output of 245 volts. Replacement AVR had 235 volts. Really did not want to trust this, as I would have to rent trailer again, haul it back to house to test, and if it did not work, have to rent trailer again and haul back to AltaQuip. To their credit, Scott at Altaquip told Westinghouse of the issue, and to Westinghouse’s credit, called me the next day and said they were “not going to keep throwing parts at this” and would just send me a replacement, which arrived on 10/20. The unit they sent was apparently a newer version, as it had a drain hose with stop on the oil drain. I had to rent trailer again and go to AltaQuip to get it, as they wanted to use the crate to return the defective unit. Finally, the good news -
On my setup (1 ¼” pipe after regulator to 1” open flow ball valve to ¾” Parker hose, 15’ long), with 45’ run of #6 to panel, I get on natural gas:
242 VAC at gen, 241 at panel
42 amps on leg1
38 amps on leg 2 using dryer and electric oven to test. Difference in legs due to 120 motor on dryer. Ran for 10 minutes.

Using AEMC 205 meter, the THD was 3.5%. Running my 3 ½ ton AC (no other loads) the THD was 4.8%. Same test on Oncor utility showed 2%. Without AC, utility was 1.7%.
The gen was using stock plugs and same fitting ajnuzzi recommended. I may change plugs to iridium @ .025 at some point if anyone has experience with that. But even at 8 kW, the unit will provide all I need summer or winter. I have 5 hours on it now, and will change oil to Amsoil small engine oil when it comes in. I hope I don't have to use the gen, but if anyone has suggestions as to improving life expectancy, etc. please let me know. I will keep it stored in garage with a few gallons of ethanol free gasoline & Seafoam in it to easily start it once or twice a month.Have a 1 amp NOCO battery maintainer on it during storage. I do wonder if the full bore fitting vs load block/adjustment will cause any issues with a too rich mixture.

Love this forum and all the helpful advice and suggestions. Hope this contributed to it.

FYI - when gas man came out, he told that during last years TX ice event, he went out and bought one of the last gens to keep his heat going. Told his neighbor, but when he went to get one they were out. Neighbor would up having water lines burst and $70K damage. I'm sure he was insured, but still, avoiding the mess and inconvenience would be worth the price of the gen (as long as the NG supply works). To quote one of the political adds running on TV here "*...fix the #@&* grid*"!


----------



## mmurret (11 mo ago)

Failed to note that I used JB Weld to affix some fine mesh screens over the vent ports on the regulator.


----------

