# Bonded neutral



## ronkesti (Nov 1, 2021)

Hi does anybody know how to unbond a 2020 predator 9000 EPA 111 portable generator?


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

I don't think you are going to find any "instructions" or a document that explains this. Neutral bonding is a legal issue with the generator manufacturers so that is why it is closely guarded. 

If you are handy with a multimeter just about anyone can figure it out. That is a rotary alternator. There will be 3 leads coming out of the windings - hot, neutral, and ground. 

For what it is worth, it is a fantastic idea to always have your generator grounded. I zapped myself the other day on my old open frame for neglecting exactly this when I was dialing in the governor speed on natural gas. Grounding took care of it. And having neutral bonded to ground at the gen is also important for holding off this shock hazard - which is why the vast majority of generators are set up this way. 

Also for what it is worth - rotary generators that have a voltage selector switch (that switch between 120/240v and 120v only) don't have an alternator set up with a neutral bonded to the frame, per se. Neutral, what ends up as neutral in either position, is usually bonded to the frame _through the switch_ as opposed to direct off the alternator. The reason for that is when in 120v only mode what was hot on one pole is neutral, and what was neutral becomes hot (that is how the poles are phased to get the 120v only mode). With a "neutral bonded to frame" you could not parallel the poles - so the voltage selection switch does just this - usually.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

ronkesti said:


> Hi does anybody know how to unbond a 2020 predator 9000 EPA 111 portable generator?


Look on the back side of the front panel where the ground lug comes through. There will be a white neutral cable connected to the ground there or back along the green or green/yellow ground wire path. When you find the location where the two are joined (it could be way back under the alternator end bell), just disconnect the neutral and insulate it and you're done.


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## ronkesti (Nov 1, 2021)

tabora said:


> Look on the back side of the front panel where the ground lug comes through. There will be a white neutral cable connected to the ground there or back along the green or green/yellow ground wire path. When you find the location where the two are joined (it could be way back under the alternator end bell), just disconnect the neutral and insulate it and you're done.


I took the panel off and there is white wire and green wire on the ground lug are you saying I can just remove the white wire and tape it?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

ronkesti said:


> I took the panel off and there is white wire and green wire on the ground lug are you saying I can just remove the white wire and tape it?


Exactly. There should only be the one bonding location.


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## ronkesti (Nov 1, 2021)

tabora said:


> Exactly. There should only be the one bonding location.


Thanks


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

make sure to test verify with a meter.
and verify all of the outlets before you connect to any equipment or generator inlet.
and treat the chassis as a hot chassis when running the gen as a stand alone generator with out connection to the house inlet.

voltage is all about reference.
so if you touch the frame and are not grounded you will be charged with a higher state if referenced to ground.
i hope i said that right.


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## ronkesti (Nov 1, 2021)

Thank you


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

You can check continuity between ground and neutral on the outlets. Neutral and ground will show continuity on a bonded-neutral set up. This is how your house is set up at the service entrance panel also. 

If you have your neutral disconnected then you should not get continuity between the ground and neutral pins. 

As mentioned before, ensure you have the generator grounded. This will help with the "shock factor".


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## ronkesti (Nov 1, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> You can check continuity between ground and neutral on the outlets. Neutral and ground will show continuity on a bonded-neutral set up. This is how your house is set up at the service entrance panel also.
> 
> If you have your neutral disconnected then you should not get continuity between the ground and neutral pins.
> 
> As mentioned before, ensure you have the generator grounded. This will help with the "shock factor".


so if i do not connect the neutral from the gen inlet to the service panel that should take care of the problem 
?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

ronkesti said:


> so if i do not connect the neutral from the gen inlet to the service panel that should take care of the problem
> ?


No, you need to connect all 4 conductors. The 120V needs a return path.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

ronkesti said:


> so if i do not connect the neutral from the gen inlet to the service panel that should take care of the problem
> ?


The continuity check between ground and neutral on the generator side connectors* is to find if you have, in fact, disconnected the bonded neutral connection. 

If you find continuity on the generator between neutral and ground you have not disconnected the bonding. 

If you do not have continuity between ground and neutral then you have disconnected the bonding.

*Any of the connectors - neutral is needed, exactly as @tabora stated for 120v. That is the return path for each leg of 120v therefore you can use any of the 120v connectors or any of the 4 pin 120/240v connectors as they will all have a neutral that ties back to a common neutral on the alternator. 

On most split phase systems neutral is taken down to ground as a reference and safety. The poles of transformers/alternators should be with each hot leg at some voltage above 0v, where the reference center is at 0v. To ensure that system is in reference to 0v the neutral/center is taken to ground - hence why you have bonded neutrals in entrance panels, transformers on power poles. etc. 

Where you do NOT usually find ground and neutral bonded, or connected together, is on sub-panels. Sub panels are those down stream from a service entrance panel. The reason for this is that if you do connect neutral and ground together at a sub you can end up with a ground loop. If a fault were to occur somewhere in the circuit then if you have multiple ground paths that can cause problems. So narrowing that down to just one ground path eliminates those loops and keeps the circuit safer. 

Some electronic systems will fault-out without sensing ground and neutral being bonded. Or - if you have hot and neutral reversed. You may think with 120v AC being just that - AC - it might not matter what wire is hot and what is neutral. However, if you look at the circuits as a whole - neutral plays a more important role than just one of two wires of a 120v AC circuit. An incandescent light bulb or a heating coil doesn't care, but other grounded electronic devices do.


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## JRHill (Nov 19, 2020)

ronkesti said:


> Hi does anybody know how to unbond a 2020 predator 9000 EPA 111 portable generator?


Why do you want or need to do this?

I have watched the thread and the replies speak specifically to the question. That's great! But I've been through this before. There are both equipment, technical and safety issues in play. What's the back story?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

JRHill said:


> Why do you want or need to do this?
> 
> I have watched the thread and the replies speak specifically to the question. That's great! But I've been through this before. There are both equipment, technical and safety issues in play. What's the back story?


it is just the deal of using a construction generator for home back up generator.


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## JRHill (Nov 19, 2020)

iowagold said:


> it is just the deal of using a construction generator for home back up generator.


I understand. Our 1st genset was a noisy, gas hog 8000w B&S and it got used a lot through construction. But when that was all done and the solar completed I tried to use it for the battery charging capability built into the Outback 3648 inverter. I wired it and when connected the generator hunted wildly. Before I could disconnect it it blew the B&S voltage regulator. Fixed under warranty (after 4 weeks,ergh). When researching I was strongly admonished to make sure it did not have a bonded neutral. I found the bond and disconnected it for house use and retired it from remote use. On the next attempt it immediately did the same thing. Fixed again under warranty but the shop said never again. It happened a 3rd time. I replaced the regulator out of pocket and bonded the neutral again - forever to be used for air compressors and tools. It became a really expensive boat anchor.

So the reason I asked for the back story is I learned that some generators work in complex situations and some don't.


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