# Generator Sizing



## TomC (Apr 16, 2021)

I have a Westinghouse WPro 8500 connected to 10 single pole circuits in a reliance manual transfer switch. IMO the genny is larger than what is required. We have city water. The furnace and tankless water heater are natural gas. Outages usually don't exceed a day or two. I attached a chart showing usage for start and run watts. I'm thinking a 5K model would be a better fit. Other option, get rid of the manual transfer switch and install a interlock kit. Appreciate ant thoughts / feedback. Merry Christmas to all! Tom


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Nice gen that can definitely handle your loads!!! If you are trying to get by with a smaller gen, then you could always selectively apply loads as needed. That's what I do. I live in a gas/electric house too and I use a 3000W gen (non-inverter) using extension cords. However, we rarely have power outages that amount to much (except for Texas freeze last Feb).

Regarding furnace...I cannot run my furnace on my generator. It produces too much THD for the electronic controls to handle. FYI...one other thing to note is that many new appliances will not run without a neutral-ground bond on the generator.

The downside to running a gen that is oversized is that you use more fuel in many instances. Yes, I do know that your gen has "Smart Idle Control", but that can get you into trouble with some more sensitive loads.


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## TomC (Apr 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> Nice gen that can definitely handle your loads!!! If you are trying to get by with a smaller gen, then you could always selectively apply loads as needed. That's what I do. I live in a gas/electric house too and I use a 3000W gen (non-inverter) using extension cords. However, we rarely have power outages that amount to much (except for Texas freeze last Feb).
> 
> Regarding furnace...I cannot run my furnace on my generator. It produces too much THD for the electronic controls to handle. FYI...one other thing to note is that many new appliances will not run with a neutral-ground bond on the generator.
> 
> The downside to running a gen that is oversized is that you use more fuel in many instances. Yes, I do know that your gen has "Smart Idle Control", but that can get you into trouble with some more sensitive loads.


Thank you for your reply. The smart idle control only kicks in during initial start up before I apply a load. THD is <5% and we have not had any issues with appliances. I changed the neutral to floating ground before using it. I think I will buy another EU2200i, parallel them as a backup. Looks like we need less than 4000 watts max for our needs. No need to burn wasted fuel.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

You can't hardly go wrong with a EU2200i. Very nice units with very clean power output. And the fact that you already have one to parallel up is a bonus. You could always shut one down if you have lighter loads at times. I would agree that the combined 4000W should meet your needs.

I have fairly reliable power at my house. I bought my Champion in 2008 and I only have 100 hours on it. It will power everything I need in the house (except for aforementioned furnace), just not everything at once. Of course, I cannot power my A/C with a 3000W genny, but that is something that I choose to accept. The only thing that bothers me is my furnace. I was able to power the blower until I replaced the HVAC system with a high efficiency system (17 SEER, 2-stage). The blower is variable speed and that is what is sensitive to my current genset. Also, it will not run without a neutral-ground bond. (I see in my earlier comment that I stated "will not run with a neutral-ground bond" when I meant to say "without". I have edited the comment.)

As for fuel, I have converted my gen to natural gas. After the Texas power grid debacle, I promised to not put myself in a situation again where fuel availability meant staying or fleeing my house. I almost burned all the gasoline that I had been able to acquire before the grid came back up. It was impossible to get more gasoline.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

TomC said:


> I have a Westinghouse WPro 8500 connected to 10 single pole circuits in a reliance manual transfer switch. IMO the genny is larger than what is required. We have city water. The furnace and tankless water heater are natural gas. Outages usually don't exceed a day or two. I attached a chart showing usage for start and run watts. I'm thinking a 5K model would be a better fit. Other option, get rid of the manual transfer switch and install a interlock kit. Appreciate ant thoughts / feedback. Merry Christmas to all! Tom


Id have to agree that this is a much larger generator then necessary for your requirements. It’s big enough to potentially run a central air conditioner paired with a soft start unit. Since you already own it, I see no reason to replace it. I’d definitely convert it to trifuel and run natural gas.


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## zz28zz (Nov 24, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> As for fuel, I have converted my gen to natural gas. After the Texas power grid debacle, I promised to not put myself in a situation again where fuel availability meant staying or fleeing my house. I almost burned all the gasoline that I had been able to acquire before the grid came back up. It was impossible to get more gasoline.


Around here (central Texas) I heard the natural gas press was too low for furnaces to run during the power grid debacle. Not sure if there was a delivery issue or maybe just the fact almost everyone was running their gas stove at full tilt to try and stay warm. If the forecast gets ugly, think I would still run out and fill some cans!!


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

@zz28zz I'm in north Dallas and we didn't seem to have any issue with gas pressure. Our gas water heater and gas cooktop worked fine. We ran the cooktop a little bit, but too much carbon monoxide to run very long!

Agree with you on the gasoline for sure. I keep a 6 gallon can and a 5 gallon can full of gas. I keep the gas fresh by putting it in my cars and refilling them. During the ice storm my brother-in-law is the one that saved our bacon. He brought over his gas (he doesn't have a gen) which gave us another 10 gallons. We would not have made it thru without that gas!

I loaded my genny as lightly as possible so as not to run out of fuel. With temps at 0 to 5 degrees my main concern was heat. We got by with a 1500W space heater in the living room and closed of the rest of the house. It worked out well. The living room temp dropped to 60 degrees at its lowest, so very comfortable all things considered.

As you probably know, Texas had over 200 deaths directly related to the storm. Another 500 deaths are estimated by some as indirect deaths.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> As you probably know, Texas had over 200 deaths directly related to the storm. Another 500 deaths are estimated by some as indirect deaths.


No doubt, CO poisoning was probably one of the causes.

Reducing CO is another reason why I converted my generator to run on LP. It's not totally absent but it's safe to say that CO emissions are about 50-60% less than that from running off gasoline.

BTT: Sounds like the OP has the perfect load profile for a Honda EU7000is.


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## zz28zz (Nov 24, 2021)

I use the Nextdoor app occasionally and there were lots of people on there saying the natural gas press was too low to be useful. Houses froze, busted pipes everywhere. No plumbers available and no pvc fittings either. What a mess..

I know at least one small group of collage students died running a small gas gen inside their dorm!! Panic makes people do obviously stupid stuff. Sad but true..

I had a bunch of high octane left over from de-fueling the boat for winterizing. My 22 yr old Yamaha genset saved our bacon. I literally kissed it after the grid came back up!
This year, if all goes well, all I have to do is sit on my butt and count to twenty.  
The old Yammie is now my backup.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

i second the honda gens as a good choice.
and yes tri fuel is the way to go on any gen setup these days.

always run C/O detection units on battery in the house...
part of a great plan!


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## TomC (Apr 16, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Id have to agree that this is a much larger generator then necessary for your requirements. It’s big enough to potentially run a central air conditioner paired with a soft start unit. Since you already own it, I see no reason to replace it. I’d definitely convert it to trifuel and run natural gas.


Thank you.


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## TomC (Apr 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> i second the honda gens as a good choice.
> and yes tri fuel is the way to go on any gen setup these days.
> 
> always run C/O detection units on battery in the house...
> part of a great plan!


Thanks. We have two battery powered C/O detectors. I am going to buy another EU2000i and parallel them.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> No doubt, CO poisoning was probably one of the causes.


Yes, it was. Hypothermia was another leading cause.


zz28zz said:


> Panic makes people do obviously stupid stuff.


How true. People ran gensets in their attached garage thinking it was okay. And, as you stated, some ran them inside their living areas.

I did hear of neighborhoods where the NG pressure went down along with the power generating stations. Well heads and pumping stations either froze up or lost electrical power. The Texas power grid is a house of cards...it will happen again. For those that don't know, most of Texas is not on any national grid. There are 3 major grids in the U.S. (a few minor grids too). They are East, West, and Texas. If the Texas grid goes down, we can't pull power from one of the national grids...we are just screwed. They said that if the grid went completely down it could take a month to get it back up. We came within about 5 minutes of losing the grid entirely. As you can probably tell, I am still really PO'd about last February. Nearly all of my neighbors had to leave their homes. My genset was the only one I could hear, so I guess they don't have one or just didn't have fuel.

I did find out later that one neighbor with a genset and 40 gallons (eight 5-gallon cans) of gasoline on hand could not get his genset running due to the cold. I got him a can of starter fluid and the unit now starts on 1st pull. I am going to help him convert to NG. Two fuel options certainly beat only one!

Overall, propane is a better fuel alternative for a genset than NG, but since I have NG available, I am going with that. It only cost me $28 for a carb with a zero governor. It works like a champ and in my testing, I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to get full load out of it. I would not run the genset at full load during use...I believe in the 80% rule.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

TomC said:


> Thanks. We have two battery powered C/O detectors. I am going to buy another EU2000i and parallel them.


sounds like a solid plan!
pm if you need links to make your own super HD parallel and inlet cords.
i also have a good parts list.


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## TomC (Apr 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> sounds like a solid plan!
> pm if you need links to make your own super HD parallel and inlet cords.
> i also have a good parts list.


Thank you. I'll use a Firman 1201


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

GenKnot said:


> Yes, it was. Hypothermia was another leading cause.
> 
> How true. People ran gensets in their attached garage thinking it was okay. And, as you stated, some ran them inside their living areas.
> 
> ...


Interesting that the NG supply was over taxed. I wonder if it’s an isolated Texas issue or a warm weather state issue. Up north heat requirements obviously require a robust infrastructure of Natural gas supply. Every house has a furnace or boiler ranging from 75,000 btu up to 200,000 btu. Plus water heaters, dryers, stoves, and ovens.

I have a 500gal propane tank, for heat, hot water, and generator. Last winter a big ice storm knocked out power for 3 days. My tank was low and my propane provider failed to make their delivery on time and I was down below 10 percent which is super empty. I had to switch to gasoline in my old champion 7000 for first time in its life since converting to trifuel 10 years ago. Fortunately the outage wasn’t widespread enough to create gasoline shortage issues but I realized that I wasn’t really FULLY prepared. Since then, I have upgraded my gasoline supply to 70 gallons of E0 lol. It’s a bit overkill but can’t hurt to be prepared.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The Texas NG supply was not really overtaxed, we have an abundance of NG. It was a situation that was caused by an abundance of greedy electricity providers. They didn't want to spend money on winterization. Texas has been warned about this many times by the Feds, but they just will not listen.


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## zz28zz (Nov 24, 2021)

I heard the ERCOT big wigs all resigned. Good. Hopefully they were replaced by folks that actually live in this state.
Seems like Texas was able to buy extra power from someone but at an outrageously elevated price. Heard of $27,000 elec bills being sent out. We didn't get one but we did get a notice that the extra costs for the purchased power would be spread across many months worth of elec bills.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

zz28zz said:


> I heard the ERCOT big wigs all resigned. Good. Hopefully they were replaced by folks that actually live in this state.


Yes, and yes, it is my understanding that all ERCOT members now live in Texas. However, that wasn't the problem. The real problem was the lack of winterization. A similar event happened back in 2011. It didn't end up being as bad for Texas residents because the grid loading wasn't as bad as it is now. As more and more people and industries move to Texas, we just don't have the extra generating capacity buffer that we used to have. It is a house of cards just waiting to fall.

ERCOT is just a "traffic cop" in that all they can do is direct grid loading. They don't have the power to make generators winterize their equipment. ERCOT reports to the PUC. The PUC reports to the legislature. And therein lies the problem. Politicians and big oil are in bed together. And don't believe them when they say that the grid is now prepared for the next event. Nothing substantial has been done to beef up the grid.

For those reading this thread and don't know what happened in the Feb 2021 storm, here is rundown (a few inaccuracies, but basically correct): 2021 Texas power crisis - Wikipedia 

Tom, sorry about hijacking your thread. But this does emphasize the need for individuals to be ready for what comes their way.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

GenKnot said:


> I did hear of neighborhoods where the NG pressure went down along with the power generating stations.





GenKnot said:


> The Texas NG supply was not really overtaxed, we have an abundance of NG. It was a situation that was caused by an abundance of greedy electricity providers. They didn't want to spend money on winterization. Texas has been warned about this many times by the Feds, but they just will not listen.


Distribution is probably the better word. If the distribution infrastructure was the limiting factor It will only be compounded by the many thousands of new installations of ~22kw standby generator all turning on at the same time consuming up to 350,000btu of NG.


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## speedy2019 (Jan 29, 2019)

I bought a 2600/2800watt generator, but was thinking buying a bigger one, but Im glad I didnt as I didnt think about how much fuel it would use or the noise level. Apparntly my gen will last 10-12hrs on a full 2.4gallion tank.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

speedy2019 said:


> I bought a 2600/2800watt generator, but was thinking buying a bigger one, but Im glad I didnt as I didnt think about how much fuel it would use or the noise level. Apparntly my gen will last 10-12hrs on a full 2.4gallion tank.


I like the idea of a few small generators, especially if they are parallel capable. Being able to expand and contract power output is a huge help in managing fuel use in an outage, especially if it's a long one and fuel becomes hard to get.


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## zz28zz (Nov 24, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Distribution is probably the better word. If the distribution infrastructure was the limiting factor It will only be compounded by the many thousands of new installations of ~22kw standby generator all turning on at the same time consuming up to 350,000btu of NG.


That's an interesting thought.
According to an article I found about new permits being issued this year for home backup gensets, Austin is projected to receive 560 new applications in 2021. Austin represents ~3% of Texas. Multiply 560 by 33.33= roughly 18,666.new permits statewide. (I suspect the vast majority will be using NG).
Multiply that by 350,000btu= over 6.5 billion extra btu's will be needed (all at once) if the state grid goes down. Wonder if that's on their radar??


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## Macko (Jul 12, 2021)

I live in Texas and suffered last Fed. Now I am ready this year. I do have two hutch kits to install but just haven’t gotten around to it. Will get a 7000i sometime down the road for the 240v things I need. I will always keep one 2200i due to the fuel efficiency but in the meantime I am good.


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