# Entertaining idea of permanent/installed gen - ideas?



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

We're in the process of having our gas feed up-sized for hooking a generator to. At the moment I have a 15kw "portable" unit. I quote that because it is the bare guts of a portable, no cage, no integrated tank, and a sole 14-50 connector - bare bones, nothing fancy (and thats all I want/need). It uses a ~23hp engine so doing the math that is 10k BTU/hp and it comes out to 230,000BTU. My hope is we can simply have a T added to the feed that goes in to the house and put a shut off valve on the extra port of the T to hook in to. 

The plumber wants us to start with the gas company and, if necessary, upgrade the regulator for higher capacity. In adding up the numbers - if we're going that far to potentially have the reg upgraded - then my thought is figure up what would be the highest demand - that we could imagine, not necessarily what we have today. 

Looking at some larger installed units in the ~20kw range it looks like natural gas consumption is under 300k BTU. So that wouldn't put the consumption that much higher than the estimate 230k for what I have now. 

As to the installed gen ideas - staying away from Kohler and Generac that leaves Cummins. CAT doesn't offer that small of a unit. Winco is another brand out there. Their PSS21F4 is in the size range - but starts at around $17k and quickly goes over $20k with many options (soundpak sound insulation package is $2600 alone, for example). The single phase Cummins RS25, for comparison, starts down around $11k. I am not sure what options are available, but that is more wattage for $6k less than the Winco equivalent to start with. 

If Aurora Generators made a unit that ran on natural gas I would put them in the mix to compare, but all theirs are only diesel. Though, I will say, their 20kw diesel home unit is around $12k to start - so closer to the Cummins. But no natural gas version makes it a no-go (sorry @JJ Ranch ).

I already touched on CAT. As for gas generators - they don't start until 50kw and go up from there. 

Generac doesn't make par for the gene pool. Kohler isn't much further up. 

Any others worth a look? 

For the near future the 15kw will work, but it is interesting to check out what is on the market. There are some pretty good benefits to installed units - from an ease of operation standpoint - that make them worth considering.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

Wouldn't your 15 Kw in an insulated shed for sound suppression work for you?


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

If I were to go with a permanent installation with NG, I'd go with the Cummins RS25. Quiet, liquid cooled, 1800 rpm, solid company.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Do you want a standby for it’s automatic operation or for the bigger wattage.

Personally I second a Sound attenuated enclosure.

The limiting Factor for your natural gas supply is the meter. At least if your adding a modestly sized standby. (20kw) Residential meters are usually 250cfh. I think the next step up is a 400cfh. A 2 Psig setup would be required for the 30kw+ range of generators and if a 20kw is being placed vary far from the gas source.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

JJ Ranch said:


> Wouldn't your 15 Kw in an insulated shed for sound suppression work for you?


Codes, permits, and local regs.

For temporary use a portable is one thing. But for installed here things are pretty "tight" you could say. For an installed unit it would have to be "installed". That is - permits, certified install by companies/individuals that have the licenses - electrician/plumber namely.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

it gets tricky at best in some locations....

yea they get funny when you want 1 million btu gas meter...
lol!
and a standard ranch house!

if you are in a commercial zoned area you can pull it off easy!
but in the standard residential areas you need a variance.
and state fire marshal approval.
and insurance approval...
they have a thing also for commercial stoves in houses as well...
same issue!

there was a place in des moines a few years back that did not have the proper sign off
a cheap 1/2 a million dollar home (lol)
and had a pro kitchen...
but it was not permitted right...
so the insurance did not pay when the deep fryer or range failed...
and burned the place down!
they still were not quiet sure if the viking range or the pitco fryer was at fault...
i still think it was lightning and a grounding issue...
and they used metal flex hose and not the good braided steel silicone covered hose with the shut offs in the ends for fast break.
that stuff is required for commercial. here at least...

take your time and over build the safety of the system!
make sure to do an earth quake gas valve!!
they like that touch for sure!


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

Why not go with diesel? My 13 Kw generator should only use 1/3 gallon per hour on average. No worries about a larger regulator, running a gas line, etc. Here's a picture of an open frame Aurora installed in a shed. All you would need is a 50 gallon diesel tank - you would get almost a full week of 7x24 run time.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

JJ Ranch said:


> Why not go with diesel? My 13 Kw generator should only use 1/3 gallon per hour on average. No worries about a larger regulator, running a gas line, etc. Here's a picture of an open frame Aurora installed in a shed. All you would need is a 50 gallon diesel tank - you would get almost a full week of 7x24 run time.


some areas diesel is tricky for storage...
if you are out in the burbs and do not have close neighbors yup diesel is ok.
they worry about the clean water act here....
diesel and engine oil as storage requires permits over 500 gallons.
unless it is mobile... that is why most of the farmers now use the fuel trailers that are dot approved.

I like NG when ever you can get on it for fuel as a primary.
lower cost... but make sure you can run the gen set as tri fuel...

back in the day a diesel engine could go multi fuel.....
not sure if they have looked at a modern multi fuel engine that would pass epa regs...

that would be cool to be able to burn from diesel to gasoline, NG, LP or any thing in between!!

the old military trucks were a burn any liquid fuel setup..
kinda cool!


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

JJ Ranch said:


> Why not go with diesel?


This:


iowagold said:


> some areas diesel is tricky for storage...


If its not Natural Gas it won't be built in. And its just an idea right now - it is a "base to cover" in the logistics of thinking through everything. It is an idea that hasn't directly hit the discussion table in the past few months, but with where we're getting to on a higher volume gas port it is an easy transition in logistics and it should be discussed. If we don't discuss it we're not covering all our bases.

Although - one thing I should have asked in my original post, also, is if there is a way to get a "natural gas" generator to run on gasoline. The "natural gas" generators usually are "dual fuel" in that they will run on propane also (huge plus). But going back to what Paul says about tri-fuel and beyond - when the SHTF and fuel is hard to get - gasoline would give another option. 

Though, the problem with that - the idea of supplying the volume of fuel - is the same problem I have with my 15kw now. Figure the 15kw would run around 36 gal/day of gasoline. A bigger unit would likely burn more gas. So the supply becomes a giant hurdle. At that point going down to a small inverter would make the most sense - they can go for a long time on a lot less fuel and we can siphon from several vehicle tanks if need-be.

That is the reason for running Natural Gas on any unit now - because it is piped in _*as long as the supply is there**_ it is unlimited. 

*I point out "as long as the supply is there" because there is no guarantee that natural gas WILL be there. Any "utility" is subject to going down - not just gas. Water, electric, sewage included. Yes, they are "public utilities", so they are higher on the chain to get attention if they go down = they are required to be operational. However, we all know that isn't the case and some areas of the country have stiffer challenges with keeping certain things flowing (electricity, namely) than others. However, no region of the country is immune to getting a utility service, of any kind, cut off - for a few minutes to a few weeks. The only way around that is to have your own way of supplying what utility feeds supply/take care of so that you can get through that period without - if what ever said utility supply/feed that could go down is critical to you.


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

Forum user drmerdp's dual EU7000is setup would work for you. Natural gas and gasoline with the conversion kits, over 10kw, quiet. Not sure if 10kw is enough for your needs though.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> Forum user drmerdp's dual EU7000is setup would work for you. Natural gas and gasoline with the conversion kits, over 10kw, quiet. Not sure if 10kw is enough for your needs though.


Negative. See earlier discussion below.



FlyFisher said:


> JJ Ranch said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't your 15 Kw in an insulated shed for sound suppression work for you?
> ...


Why the paralleled EU7000 fails as an option here is two-fold:

They are portables set up as "permanent"
Make shift out building/enclosure. The units aren't designed from the get-go as outside, built-on-slab, enclosed units.

Don't get me wrong, I like the theory of the EU7000's. That, in many ways, is an "ideal" portable for home back up. It fits a unique niche with a quality option (so much so that several other knock-offs are out there - Predator, Champion, DuroMax have competing options now).

No matter how you slice the cake on them, though, they don't fit the environment as a purpose-made built-in unit.

As to wattage - the two combined might suffice, but it is on the lower side. My theory is 15kw is all we need - I can run the whole house fine right now on what I have (15kw starting/13.5kw running - that is on gasoline, I have not tried the whole house running propane or natural gas yet so I don't know how those fuels will hold up yet). 

In looking at Natural Gas built-in units - a "20kw unit" is usually rated to 20kw on Propane. There is usually a derate for Natural Gas. For the same 20kw on Propane the derate might take it down to 18kw. So speaking of numbers and comparison - using the 18kw number on Natural Gas compared to the 15kw on the unit I have now - that is 3kw more head room. That isn't huge, but if we already have a comfortable amount of gen power at 15kw then the head room at 18kw means we're running at a lower load % with what our loads currently are. That is a good thing. If we go down in rated wattage then we are only increasing that load %, if we can even get down there. I have not measured actual amperage/wattage consumption to know, however I do know the current 15kw will easily run the whole house. As to what numbers constitute "easy" - I don't know. The generator does not even begin to struggle with any loads I've put on it - including the whole house running with central AC starting and running.

My point - if we're in the ballgame of an installed unit then the theory on wattage being that its better to go up a bit rather than down makes more sense.

If you look at the 20kw starting point there aren't too many options. If you take out the air cooled, 3600 RPM contenders and merge in to liquid cooled, 1800 RPM units - the playing field thins out quick. The only 2 I've found that are in that range that are natural gas/propane units are the Winco PSS21F4 and Cummins RS25.


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

Depending on your budget, you could get the RS25 as a main backup generator and have a portable gasoline gen as a backup to your backup (with a reduced load). Portables are kind of nice since you can take them anywhere...use power tools remotely, use for an RV or camping, etc.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> Depending on your budget, you could get the RS25 as a main backup generator and have a portable gasoline gen as a backup to your backup (with a reduced load). Portables are kind of nice since you can take them anywhere...use power tools remotely, use for an RV or camping, etc.


We have 3 portables.

EU2200i - 2200w inverter (gasoline only at the moment)
Older (~15-20yrs) 2600w rotary (tri-fuel, gasoline originally, modified for propane + NG)
15kw rotary (will be tri-fuel, gasoline originally, runs on propane right now, working on getting it to run on NG)

What I've also been eye-balling is a ~4-5kw inverter. Duromax has one that is electric start, dual fuel (gasoline, propane), and 4500w. However, it is 120v-only. I don't think that would be an enormous drawback. We already have a way to feed split phase power with single phase 120v, but ideally in that wattage range I'd prefer to have the option of selecting 120v-only for higher current (all the wattage coming out as 120v) or split phase dual voltage 120/240v (2x legs to divide the wattage between the 2 legs).

Said 4-5kw unit would span the gap between the EU2200i/2600w rotary and 15kw.

Really, the need for the larger power gen at home is primarily AC in the hot months. If it weren't for that a 4-5kw unit would run this whole house. All the heat sources are NG here, aside from the clothes dryer. However, if we were on generator power the clothes dryer would be the last thing we'd run. In fact, the EU2200i will get us by with the minimal stuff already. However, it gets max'ed out real easy. With a 4-5kw unit we could add in a microwave oven to the minimal loads on the high end and keep the load % less with the minimal loads, as opposed to running the EU2200i hard.

There are loads I have that I would like to run portable at times where no generator I've had until the 15kw would run - an air compressor and welders. So from that standpoint - remote/portable power - I have more now than I could ever get close to max'ing out.

The same would go for if we were on generator power and I needed to conserve fuel at the same time having a need for the air compressor and/or welder. If we were running on a smaller generator for the essentials I could fire up the 15kw only for the heavy loads. For example - if the natural gas supply were cut off that would force us to gasoline and propane that could be tanked in. Depending on what fuel is available, at the moment, of the smaller generators we have, only the 2600w rotary is set up for propane. If gasoline the EU2200 is actually a more powerful generator with much better fuel efficiency (and is a lot quieter).


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

One thing that occurred to me with regards to upsizing a generator to power a large HVAC unit is the irony that one could simply install a $1500 inverter mini-split to run when utility power is lost, reducing the need to upgrade to a $10-20k large standby unit. I face this same conundrum with my 4-ton and my Honda...a second mini-split would be less than half of another EU7000is.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> One thing that occurred to me with regards to upsizing a generator to power a large HVAC unit is the irony that one could simply install a $1500 inverter mini-split to run when utility power is lost, reducing the need to upgrade to a $10-20k large standby unit.


More irony:

Name 1 "built in" unit that satisfies the following:

Liquid cooled
1800 RPM
Under 20kw
Runs on Natural Gas

It could possibly exist, I don't know for sure either way.

Just for comparisons-sake - here is a 10kw 1800 RPM, liquid cooled generator. However, this is a mobile/RV unit (not built-in) and it runs on diesel, not Natural Gas. It is hovering around $11k. That is pretty much the same starting price as the 25kw RS25. Same price, 10kw vs 25kw, diesel vs natural gas, mobile vs. built in. Interesting how much more "bang for the buck" there is with the RS25, eh?









Cummins Onan 10.0 HDKCC42345 QD 10000 - 10HDKCC42345 - 10,000 Watt Quiet Diesel Commercial Mobile Generator 120/240V 45A


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And the RS25 for a side-by-side comparison:








Cummins Power Generation RS25 Cummins Quiet Connect™ Series 25kW Standby Power Generator 120/240V Single-Phase


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