# Backup plans and acquiring fuel - propane, gasoline, diesel



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

I've been thinking about this subject quite a bit and I think it is worthy of a thread 

What are everyones experiences with acquiring fuel during periods of larger scale natural disasters? 

The only experience I have that relates is quite a few years ago there was a wind storm that went through the midwest (remnants of a hurricane, if I recall correctly). At the house I grew up in we lost power for around 2 weeks. The generator that we used then only ran on gasoline. The main memory I have of fuel during the event was going to gas stations finding they were closed as they didn't have power. We did find a gas station that had power - but everyone else out looking for gas found the same thing thus the lines were quite long to get to a pump. I don't recall how much gas we were able to load up with, I remember we had a 5 gallon jug and a smaller one, but that doesn't hit me as nearly being enough. 

I was talking to a buddy of mine the other day. They had a generator that would run on propane set up at a remote building that didn't have utility service (either it was new construction and wasn't tied in yet, or they couldn't get grid power, period). They had a tank delivered but had problems getting the generator running (new unit and they later found something was not wired correctly). According to my buddy - the guy delivering the propane couldn't leave the gas on because they couldn't prove the system worked. The guys had to get another small tank to hook up and troubleshoot then had the gas company come back out the next day to get the bigger tank tied in and running. 

Some food for thought on my end - 

From the research I have done, and I don't have my own numbers to verify, just going off of what I have heard from similar units - my generator with a Honda GX690 engine will draw about 1.5 gallons of gas per hour or 4lbs of propane per hour. That would be 36 gallons of gas per day or 96lbs of propane per day. 

Lets use a week of run time - 7 days - for discussions' sake. Using the above numbers that comes out to 252 gallons of gas per week or 672 lbs of propane per week. 

The question is - how do you get that kind of fuel??? 

What would be the easiest/most convenient is to have propane delivered. I have seen large "portable" tanks up to around 420lbs - you see them running heaters on construction sites in the winter time. Even that size tank wouldn't last a week - you would be in to a couple of those. 

Does anyone here have experience with having a propane tank and propane delivered? What challenges did you face? What "certifications" or "checks" did the gas company require? Can you rent tanks like you can Acetylene and Argon?

I realize those out in the country likely have a lot easier time with fuel - acquiring and storing, and some likely already have propane on-site - but do any of you around suburbs have much to offer on experience, examples, etc? 

With gasoline and diesel (diesel not quite as much as gasoline, but it still doesn't last forever) you have storage time issues - you can't have it around forever. So I'd question the idea of storing it ahead of time - even the large scale generators with a giant tank underneath. If you aren't storing it then you get in to the question of where do you get it - and how? Vehicle tanks are rarely over 20 gallons so even siphoning out of vehicle tanks won't go very far. 

We have 3x that run gasoline - 13gal in one and the other 2 are around 18gal - if they're full. If they are around half full thats not even a day's worth of gas in 3 vehicle tanks.

An obvious answer is drop the fuel consumption. We have that ability (2 other smaller generators, including a Honda EU2200i that will do about 3-4gal/day consumption - 10x better efficiency). That isn't the question I am posing in the thread - the question is how to acquire larger sustaining quantities of fuel. 

I am also leaving out Natural Gas. The reason is that is a utility feed. That can go down also - which is where the other types of fuel come in to play. Gasoline, propane, and diesel might be the only fuels quasi-available. The trick is getting it. So what are the tricks? What are the challenges? 

Having fuel delivered would get around the transportation challenge. However, that introduces the challenges with certifying what ever needs to be certified.

Thoughts?


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## Dutchy491 (Sep 18, 2019)

Well there is NEVER a way to have electricity without the worry of not having it available 24/7. So some common sense and conservation will be in order during an event. A small generator/inverter with several gas cans always at the ready will go a long way to assist with everyday life necessities. Now if there are health issues where electricity is needed to maintain life?....that’s a whole different ball game. Keep it simple, have a backup plan, lots of spare spark plugs and motor oil, gas in circulation to keep it fresh and an ear to daily news and weather. Without too much effort you could survive for several weeks with a plan and reasonable preparedness. Wind, solar and water generators might give some an infinite source of power if that is important... Dutchy


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

Dutchy491 said:


> Well there is NEVER a way to have electricity without the worry of not having it available 24/7. So some common sense and conservation will be in order during an event. A small generator/inverter with several gas cans always at the ready will go a long way to assist with everyday life necessities. Now if there are health issues where electricity is needed to maintain life?....that’s a whole different ball game. Keep it simple, have a backup plan, lots of spare spark plugs and motor oil, gas in circulation to keep it fresh and an ear to daily news and weather. Without too much effort you could survive for several weeks with a plan and reasonable preparedness. Wind, solar and water generators might give some an infinite source of power if that is important... Dutchy


There is also rationing. In the case of a longer term power outage, you don't necessarily need to run a generator 24/7...just enough to keep food refrigerated. My in-laws have a propane powered whole house generator and they have 3 large 500 gal propane tanks all connected to each other. Propane is used for cooking, heating and generator backup. Since propane stores virtually forever, the answer is obviously larger and more storage tanks.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm glad you posted this. It's an issue that I've been turning over in my mind for a while now. We have the same problem here. If there's a major weather event that takes out the power for longer than a few days, getting gasoline becomes a real headache. After the second day of the outage, as everyone is starting to run out of fuel, the quest for gas becomes a crusade. Stations don't have backup generators, or they run out of gasoline to sell if they have power. 

I came up with what may be an answer. I bought a nice drum pump on Amazon for about $65. I had trouble finding a drum that was less than about $200 online. I called a local gas station supply company. They had plenty of empty 55 gallon drums. It's what Chevron ships their synthetic motor oil in. The drums are new, except for having held motor oil for transport. They told me to stop by and pick one up. They gave me one for free. Needless to say, I was pleased about that. There's still a tiny bit of 0w20 oil in the drum that I need to clean out. I'll put a couple of gallons of gas in it, swirl it around, and then dump it out. I _think_ it should be fine after that. 

My plan is to put about 40-45 gallons in the tank. With the two inverters running, that should last us about five days, longer if I conserve. After five days, either the power will be back on again or availability of gasoline will be much better. If, for some reason, we don't need the fuel that year, I can just pump it into the vehicles at the end of the season, leaving the drum ready for fresh gasoline at the beginning of the next season. That seems to be the best idea I can come up with as an alternative to storing a dozen gas jugs everywhere.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

OK on the drum idea. 

OK on the "rationing" idea. That gets back to running a smaller generator thats easier on fuel. That isn't the question I was posing - the question is how to acquire fuel. 

On the "pumping gas" conundrum - I used compressed air. To siphon tanks I put a hose down in the tank, usually with a metal rod (tig welding rod) zip tied to the hose so I can bend it and articulate it so the end of the hose sits on the bottom of the tank. Then I wrap a towel over the fuel port and use a compressed air nozzle to build the pressure in the tank. The pressure pushes the gas through the hose. Once the gas starts flowing gravity does the rest - until the hose gets air in it. You never do get the last drop, but that is how I've transferred gas out of my larger portable boat tanks (around 6gal and big ones are 12gal). Once I get to the "bottom" I just pick the tanks up and invert them over a funnel to shake out what gas is left.

Another idea I have - which I meant to get parts for when I was at the hardware store the other day - is to use an Air Lift* to draw from a vacuum to start the siphon. I would have to make an adapter for the base of the vacuum unit to connect up to a hose, it normally connects to a larger tank opening with a compression style bung that expands when the bolt is tightened. Getting that to fit on a 1/2" hose or so will be a trick but doable. You can't just use the normal bung set to lock it to the tank fill port - you need to draw the gas from the bottom of the tank, not the air space at the top. 

*Link:








UView (UV 550000) Airlift Cooling System Refiller


DetailsNo effort, no hassle, no airlocks!Eliminates airlocks and refills entire cooling system in seconds including heater core without the time consuming process of bleeding and purging. Also checks for leaks while under vacuum. It features brass construction is easy to operate and uses shop...




www.tooltopia.com





Another conundrum with propane - 

When I was getting parts for my propane/NG conversions I went to a local gas supplier (they deal with bbq grills, fire pits, etc - the homeowner stuff) for a quick fitting and some hose. I asked them about filling propane if they run out of power. The guy told me they can somewhat do it - but it takes 1/2 hour to fill a 20lb tank as the filling is done at tank pressure. I don't know enough about propane to make that make sense through and through to me, but I'll take the guy's word for it. That means a 100lb tank would take 2.5 hours to fill?


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

No matter how you approach the problem, you're looking at storing some type of fuel. Whether it be gasoline, propane, or natural gas, you need a fuel source at your home ready to go. You don't want to wait until the outage to try to fill a 100lb tank. That needs to be done before the outage. That way, the problem will be solved before it becomes one. Depending on the total length of the outage, you're going to be looking at rationing if the outage is long enough and you don't have enough fuel stored. Not having to worry about rationing is great and all, provided you have the resources so you don't have to. Circumstances may force you to, so it's best to have a contingency plan if it happens. 

The compressed air pump method is clever. It's not perfect, but it sounds like it works pretty good.


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

You can also get a 12V siphon pump for higher volume fuel transfer:








Amazon.com: Roughneck 12V Fuel Transfer Pump - 8 GPM, Manual Nozzle, Hose : Industrial & Scientific


Buy Roughneck 12V Fuel Transfer Pump - 8 GPM, Manual Nozzle, Hose: Pumps - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> You can also get a 12V siphon pump for higher volume fuel transfer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a no-go for me. You won't find me powering anything electronic next to open gasoline containers - let alone the device doing the pumping. 

That is why I use air. No electricity to potentially spark.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

I’m up to seven 5gal fuel cans with stabilized non-ethanol gas stored in a nice and drafty plastic shed next to my main shed. I have a 500gal buried propane tank for my heat and hot water as well. My eu7000 runs on gasoline as the primary fuel with propane as my backup. Last winter I ran low on propane during an outage and had to switch back to gasoline on my old champion generator for the first time since breaking it in. 

If I had natural gas I likely would have installed a standby generator, but being limited to propane and gasoline I’m very happy with the eu7000. Quiet And remarkably fuel efficient. It lives in a running enclosure and I start it remotely from a controller mounted next to my main panel. 

Im tempted to grab a 55gal drum and add that to my bag of tricks. It’d sit in the same plastic shed. My only delemia is can I transport a full 55gal drum of gasoline legally?


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

There may be local laws related to combustible fuel storage for the safety of residents. If you're over the limit and there is a problem, your insurance could potentially deny a claim. API indicates no more than 25 gallons:






Safe Storage and Disposal of Gasoline


Gasoline is an important part of our everyday lives. But gasoline can be dangerous if not handled or stored properly. Take the following precautions.




www.api.org


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## Bluwolf (Nov 8, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> I’m up to seven 5gal fuel cans with stabilized non-ethanol gas stored in a nice and drafty plastic shed next to my main shed.
> 
> Im tempted to grab a 55gal drum and add that to my bag of tricks. It’d sit in the same plastic shed. My only delemia is can I transport a full 55gal drum of gasoline legally?


You could always make a couple trips with your 5 gallon cans and the drum would be full. Maybe a little tedious but probably easier than muscling the 55 gal drum.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Bluwolf said:


> You could always make a couple trips with your 5 gallon cans and the drum would be full. Maybe a little tedious but probably easier than muscling the 55 gal drum.


That's how I plan to do it. Several five gallon jugs, several 2.5 gallon jugs, should be able to get it done in two trips.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yes on thank rental from the lp guys.
they also make lp tank trailer units like they do for ammonia for ag.

for gasoline and diesel they make the fuel trailers.
*https://www.fastline.com/trailers-for-sale/listings/fuel-trailers/results?category=Fuel+Trailers
and these
FuelPro® Fuel Trailers*

yea rationing is a big thing during an event...
but if you have a connection to the fuel depot!
then 500 to 3000 gallons is easy to purchase and to drive to your site or neighborhood!

yup on the fuel storage rules..
also dot rules are in there.
you have to have a tanker endorsement on your CDL...

do what you can to have a good plan!
and try to do it as safe and low key as you can.

stay safe out there!


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## motormonkey (Jul 10, 2016)

If you really want to be prepared for a situation where fuel is not available, maybe you should look into gas extraction from firewood.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

During our Valentines day (which lasted two weeks) ice-apoclypse we were out of power for 13 days, friends just two miles away were out for 18 days out here in ranch land. After the event I had our 300 gallon gravity feed diesel tank filled and asked the driver how they made out in the winter storms. Regular gasoline sold out first, then the more expensive grades of gas including non-ethanol, then diesel and finally off road diesel but full tax was charged.

Propane delivery was impossible for several days from what friends said. One guy had a whole house propane generator and he had to ration his run time after 10 or 12 days, he was quite concerned about running out of fuel.

For me it's diesel as a fuel choice.


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## motormonkey (Jul 10, 2016)

Diesel can be a good choice. It can have a long shelf life if you use some additives.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

and keep the diesel bug out of the tanks...


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

I estimate 7-11 gallons of fuel consumption per day running the eu7000 24/7, Which I probably wouldn’t do anyway. Id switch to the eu2000 +/- eu2200 overnight. All in all, a 7day supply of gasoline is very feasible. Add in my propane supply and I easily have 2 weeks of fuel with basic load management. 

I have yet to convert either of my little EUs to propane, but that’s a logical next step.

I also have 2+ cords of wood to reduce propane usage from running heat. Backups and more backups.


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## arubalou (Feb 9, 2013)

motormonkey said:


> Diesel can be a good choice. It can have a long shelf life if you use some additives.


just wondering what the maximum shelf life on diesel is.


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## BobS (Aug 26, 2020)

I having being keeping diesel for years. I do rotate but I use pri-d and biobor JF. As per many sources including the manufactures, the fuel should be good for a decade. The longest I used gasoline is 2 years with a double dose of stabilizer.


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## BobS (Aug 26, 2020)

I am reading many different estimates as well as being told by many people including "generator experts" (outside of this forum) on what the fuel consumption is for the generators (many people and some of the documentation are way off). It is always best to test your emergency procedures prior to needing them. You can run your house on the generator for a quarter / half a day or more and make sure that you don't overload it, overheat it, burn too much oil, is the electric good when different devices / appliances go on and how much fuel it uses. It is better to find out before an emergency than during when all **** breaks out. I have multiple generators and test them every month or more (already had two blackouts this month). When I do extended testing, things don't always go the way you expect. I have been on continuous generator multiple times from one to two weeks straight. I have had some of my old generators and friends fail on 4+ hour testing but worked great under a load for a 1/2 to 1 hours at a time.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

arubalou said:


> just wondering what the maximum shelf life on diesel is.


diesel will last a long time as long as you can keep the water out of the tank.
and do not get the bio diesel bug... 
that bug will ruin the batch and mess up your whole fuel system...
it is a BIG deal here in Iowa...
think injection pump, injectors at the worst...
we use a LARGE water separator as a pre warn so you can see the trash in the fuel.

LP lasts the longest as long as you keep the outside of the tank clean and rust free.

there is more btu in diesel fuel....
and it works the best in warmer climates above 50 deg f.
below 50 deg f you need block heaters and air pre heat etc.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> I estimate 7-11 gallons of fuel consumption per day running the eu7000 24/7, Which I probably wouldn’t do anyway. Id switch to the eu2000 +/- eu2200 overnight. All in all, a 7day supply of gasoline is very feasible. Add in my propane supply and I easily have 2 weeks of fuel with basic load management.
> 
> I have yet to convert either of my little EUs to propane, but that’s a logical next step.
> 
> I also have 2+ cords of wood to reduce propane usage from running heat. Backups and more backups.


My EU7000is was running about 8 hours a day during our outage, 4 hours when we started our day and 4 hours late afternoon. We ran the essentials, one fridge, a freezer, LED ceiling lights and we recharged various things including power packs. I fueled it once a day and my fuel burn was about 3 gallons a day but our heat source and stove was propane. So extrapolating my experience I think you can expect a 24 hour fuel usage of around 8 gallons a day assuming you replicate my situation. The EU7000is is a fantastic portable generator.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

8 gallons and 3 weeks = 168 gallons of gasoline...
that still can be a thing in some towns for storage...
if you have several cars you could use out of those tanks in a pinch if they all had good gasoline in them.
kinda a pain to get the fuel out...
but in an emergency!
yea a fuel wagon looks good....
or if you are remote rural do a farm tank with a lock.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Our city has a pump station for overcoming a shortcoming in sewer design. It has redundant pumps for back up, however they run on 3-phase power and if the grid goes down they don't have a permanent backup generator to run it. So the city hauls a 3-phase generator out during storms so if the power goes down they can get the pump station back running in minutes. That generator is on a trailer with the whole bottom being a fuel tank.

It seems the "base tank" is pretty common for bigger standby/prime units - permanent installs and trailer mounted.

Why not adopt the same theory to a smaller generator? Trailer mount it on a base tank. Set the dimensions of the tank to the capacity you want. Fill up and park it where ya need it. Examples below (interior dimensions, no air space factored in):










The down side - you have to unhook the generator (IE - kill the power for a bit) to move it to fill up and return - provided you can get somewhere that you can fill up at. Another reason for more than 1 generator.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Heres another expansion on the same chart factoring in burn rate and run time for illustration. The 1.5gal/hr is a ballpark for my scenario, of course everyone's data might look different. This is just a numerical illustration.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> I am also leaving out Natural Gas. The reason is that is a utility feed. That can go down also - which is where the other types of fuel come in to play. Gasoline, propane, and diesel might be the only fuels quasi-available.


Here is a prime example in the point made above - natural gas going down. See the more recent thread/discussion in the link below. I am linking here for ease of cross-referencing if anyone comes across it in the future:









Yes, this can happen to you


https://www.wsaz.com/2021/07/17/kinzer-companies-issues-statement-cites-imminent-threat-public-safety-reason-gas-shutoff/ https://www.wymt.com/2021/07/17/pike-county-community-looking-answers-following-unannounced-gas-outage/




www.powerequipmentforum.com


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## cosmic (Jul 1, 2021)

This thread and the fuel availability issues discussed are exactly why I made the decision this spring to purchase the predator 2000 as my back up, fuel economy.
In 2017 hurricane Irma ran right up the center of Florida creating total grid down.
We had to live with a 700/900 HF Stormcat as I only had 15 gals of gas and the restoration of the grid was going very slowly.
It took seven days to get partial power back.
As of now I keep 20 gals gas in 5 gal cans with stabilizer to use in the mower and generator refilling as I use it. Should last a week with the predator 2000.


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