# Duromax XP9000iH-pk parallel box question



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Could someone give me there thoughts on what you think about the way Duromax is doing there parallel box the xp9000ih-pk, with 2 xp9000ih generators. On the front panel there is no neutral connection only two hots and the ground which neutral is bonded to the frame. On parallel box there's no neutral wire at all and on the 50a connector on the parallel box the neutral is not even connected to the ground internally. On the parallel box the wording over the 4 wire 50a connector and the 3 wire 30 connector say 240v. not 120/240 like the front panel on the generator. All of this this just seems odd to me. Thanks for any help Inverter Parallel Kit for XP9000iH Generator


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Click the Reviews tab on the link you provided above and read thru the questions. It seems that the 30A plug is meant for 120V only. The 50A plug is meant for 120/240V. But, to get the full wattage available from paralleling the two gens, you have to use both plugs on the parallel kit.

As for the 50A plug not having the ground connected to neutral, it probably should be that way. If it was connected in the parallel kit, then the N-G bonds on the gens need to be open...you should only have one N-G bond.

Edit: In reading the questions again, I think the 50A plug is meant for 120V also.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

DuroMax does not provide wiring diagrams, but their kit is probably wired similar to the Champion 100319.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

I believe the parallel kit provides 120V only... which sounds about right, owing to the fact that it doesn't have a neutral.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> I believe the parallel kit provides 120V only... which sounds about right, owing to the fact that it doesn't have a neutral.


Yup. I wonder why they labeled it 240V?


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> I believe the parallel kit provides 120V only... which sounds about right, owing to the fact that it doesn't have a neutral.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Heres the XP4500iH- PK Version 120v. compared to the XP9000iH-PK 240v version


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The specs say it is 120V. Hmm...


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)




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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> The specs say it is 120V. Hmm...
> View attachment 11912


Very Interesting


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Yeah, without a Neutral wire, the parallel kit will only do 120V. Even if the generators themselves are capable of 120/240V.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

This guy was able to build his own 240V parallel kit for his two Predator 9500W generators because the parallel ports on the gens included two Hots and a Neutral (Red, Black, and White).


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> This guy was able to build his own 240V parallel kit for his two Predator 9500W generators because the parallel ports on the gens included two Hots and a Neutral (Red, Black, and White).


This was a question I sent Duromax


> > > Can I get 120v AND 240v out of both the connectors on the XP9000iH-PK parallel kit. or does it have to be 240v only. The connector on the left is a L6-30R which has 3 connections, X and Y Hot and a Ground,
> > > The Connector on the right is a 14-50R which has 4 connections, X and Y Hot and a Neutral and a Ground. It seems that the L6-30R could also have 120 volts on each X andY legs to ground since the





> > > XP9000iHs neutral is bonded to the ground. Just curious


Response:


> > Yes, you should be able to run 240V on both of those receptacles. One is a 50A receptacle, one is a 30A, and both are 240V-capable.





> > Thank You





> > Duromax Support


Another response:
We would not have a diagram for the parallel kit unfortunately, but it would use 120 volts if that is what is applied. The generators(parallel kit) will detect what voltage is drawing through the 30A and 50A connections for both

Thank you,

Duromax Support


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> This was a question I sent Duromax
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too vague, IMO.

I can't see how the parallel kit can offer BOTH 120V and 240V simultaneously without a neutral connection. With just the two Hot wires connected, it can do EITHER 120V or 240V, depending on what voltage is being fed to it. But again, not both 120V and 240V at the same time.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

👆 Yes.

The description of this kit and how to use it on the DuroMax website is awful to say the least. But I agree with Orly...you cannot have mixed loads (120v & 240V) at the same time.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Thanks for all the info.Tomorrow Im just going to hook them up and see what happens.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

sooo....
hummm...
yea you need 4 wire connection for the 120/240 to be right...

unless for rv use they look at it as 120 120 (the 120 is the same wave angle)
but then it is sooooo limited for the real power out of the gen.....
unless the gen is over rated?

on the math
i get 75 amps with the 9000 watts in para 240....
so a 50 amp connection is not right to get all of it out of the gens...

i would build this out of Anderson connectors rated for more...
and use 4/4 from the para box to the house...

and maybe for the rv connection switch to the 60 amp rv....
and 100% copper wire.

the trick is to get the right connectors out of the gen to the para kit...
the little 4mm are rated at 36 amps max.... way too close for 100% duty cycle....
unless they are doing something different than the standard 4mm shrouded.

pm if you need parts lists.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> Im just going to hook them up and see what happens.


Use an ohmmeter to check the wiring of the parallel kit (or just open it up) and see if it matches the wiring diagram in post #3. You will know for sure what you are dealing with if you know how it is wired.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Use an ohmmeter to check the wiring of the parallel kit (or just open it up) and see if it matches the wiring diagram in post #3. You will know for sure what you are dealing with if you know how it is wired.


I will check again and get back with you, but I do know it’s a little different than this diagram.

Thanks for your help


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> DuroMax does not provide wiring diagrams, but their kit is probably wired similar to the Champion 100319.
> View attachment 11909


Just curious as to what program you used to make this diagram.
Thanks


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

It is a screenshot from the Champion manual.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> It is a screenshot from the Champion manual.


This is how its wired


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> DuroMax does not provide wiring diagrams, but their kit is probably wired similar to the Champion 100319.
> View attachment 11909


My Guess is since the champion is a 120 volt version its wired like the Duromax 120 volt version, the XP4500iH-PK box.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

I think it is going to need another connection...









It looks like it is going to be only 120V *or* 240V depending on the setting on the gen. It could never do 120 *&* 240V.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> I think it is going to need another connection...
> View attachment 11923
> 
> 
> It looks like it is going to be only 120V *or* 240V depending on the setting on the gen. It could never do 120 *&* 240V.


The Duramax XP9000iH doesn't have a 120/240v switch like the Predator 9500. I have the 1 of the Duramaxs hooked up to the house using the 4 pin 120/240 thats on the front panel.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

I can get 120v and 240v out of the 4 pin 30a connector and 120v out of the standard 20a connectors all at the same time.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> I can get 120v and 240v out of the 4 pin 30a connector and 120v out of the standard 20a connectors all at the same time.


Yes, but that is not available at the parallel kit.

There are only 2 conducting wires going to the parallel kit (ground does not count), so you cannot get 120V and 240V at the same time as you can on the front panel of the gen.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

This is an interesting answer provided by DuroMax. It seems that they are saying the gens can be run in 120V mode. I don't see a switch for that. Soooo...???


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Do you think this could this still work only using the ground wire since the neutral is bonded to the frame and ground.

Just don't get why the left the neutral off the from panel. Its on the predator 9500. So odd


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

I see that the gen is a bonded neutral. So, you will read 120V from ground to either black or red. However, you are not supposed to use ground as a conductor. Maybe that is what DuroMax is doing.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Do you think this could this still work only using the ground wire since the neutral is bonded to the frame and ground.
> 
> Just don't get why they left the neutral off the front panel. Its on the predator 9500. So odd


Sorry for the typos


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> I see that the gen is a bonded neutral. So, you will read 120V from ground to either black or red. However, you are not supposed to use ground as a conductor. Maybe that is what DuroMax is doing.


My guess to


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

We were posting at the same time, but I think a call to DuroMax is needed. This is so weird that they would use ground in this way.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> We were posting at the same time, but I think a call to DuroMax is needed. This is so weird that they would use ground in this way.


When I get the chance I will give them a call. Thanks for all you help


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Check this out, yet another clone.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Think about this-- 

A system can only bond the neutral in one spot.
The Duromax generator has a bonded neutral.
Paralleling requires 2 generators......
So how does Duromax get around this? They treat the bonded neutral as a _bus_ that spans both generators. If you bond the same bus twice, you've still only bonded a single bus. Problem solved, right? I believe this is what Duromax has done.

In other words, they combine the ground conductor and neutral conductor into the same wire. If you put an ohmmeter on the parallel 4 prong receptacle, you'd see that they shorted the N and G together. 

Duromax even says that they require customers to use a 3 pole transfer switch and do not recommend unbonding the neutral (because, I presume, this would break the parallel kit).

I think this is actually the best way to do it, if you grant the prerequisite that people aren't unbonding the generators' neutrals. If you do unbond them, then you need to DIY your own 4 wire parallel kit. 

So the next question-- why do Predator and Genmax not account for this problem that Duromax solved?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

PipapoGuapo said:


> So the next question-- why do Predator and Genmax not account for this problem that Duromax solved?


I don't see this as a problem solved. I see it as a problem created. You would not normally expect the ground wire to be a conductor, yet that appears to be what DuroMax is doing.

The gen can also be made floating if necessary. The neutral wire is connected to the ground wire at the grounding bolt on the front panel (it is on the backside of the panel).


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

I think, for the "idiots" in the term "idiot proof" it is solved. Just follow the manufacturer's directions and you'll be okay. But yeah, if you want to deviate from that, then you do have some extra problems that are not obvious at first-- like, if you unbond the generator, then the parallel kit isn't going to give 120V.

But predator seem to assume you're _wink wink _going to unbond it and separate the N and G. The problem they have is that if you use a parallel kit with the Predator, you've got your neutral bonded in two places.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

5-30 is 120 vac
6-30 is 120/240
for the 30 amp connection.

yea no neutral is an issue!
danger, danger.

when connecting to any rv, house etc that has a 120/240 inlet and has 120 equipment.
you need the neutral.

not sure what they are up to with the kit...
looks to be a kit for 120 volt gens only.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> when connecting to any rv, house etc that has a 120/240 inlet and has 120 equipment.
> you need the neutral.


There is a neutral, it's combined with ground to meet the rule that the neutral can only be bonded to ground in 1 place. 240/120V still available if you don't make modifications.

I drew a picture. I'm no Michelangelo.










What it shows is that the green wire is GND/Neutral through the whole "generator system". They only separate after the parallel kit receptacle. I believe Duromax did this correctly, if you don't modify anything.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Irrelevant. That's not how the kit is wired.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

for construction sites and rv this post pix in #40  would be ok if you had a ground stake.

but for home use.
no this does not meet code.

and you still do not have all of the power out of the gens at a 50 amp outlet.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Irrelevant. That's not how the kit is wired.


I thought Duromax wasn't providing a wiring diagram. How do you know how it's wired? I confirm that my diagram is a guess, but IMO it's obvious, since they are providing 120/240V on that plug somehow.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The OP traced it out. See his posts above.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> for construction sites and rv this post pix in #40  would be ok if you had a ground stake.
> 
> but for home use.
> no this does not meet code.
> ...


I totally agree, but Duromax specifically says you "shall" use a 3 pole transfer switch which switches the neutral. So they agree with you too.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> The OP traced it out. See his posts above.


Okay, I did see that but wasn't sure how he checked it (by eye?). You pointed out another issue. A simple check would be to put an ohm meter between the GND and N ports on the parallel kit receptacle. I would expect a short, and I predict they are shorted right at the receptacle. I'll admit my theory is on shakey ground now, but I'd be interested to have him check that specifically.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

It's highly unlikely that Duromax is foolish enough to have the Ground wires act as a Neutral and carry current. No way! At the least, the parallel kit can be 120V-only or 240V-only.... depending on the voltage across the red and black Hot wires.

But at the end of the day, Duromax' website specifies the parallel kit as 120V-only. They may be bad at documentation and all but having just two Hots and a Ground wire pretty much confirms that the parallel kit is single-voltage only.

There are a lot of perceived grey areas in NEC compliance... including N-G bonding. But there's no mis-interpretation when it comes to current flow. Current should never flow across ground EXCEPT in a fault condition.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

PipapoGuapo said:


> Okay, I did see that but wasn't sure how he checked it (by eye?). You pointed out another issue. A simple check would be to put an ohm meter between the GND and N ports on the parallel kit receptacle. I would expect a short, and I predict they are shorted right at the receptacle. I'll admit my theory is on shakey ground now, but I'd be interested to have him check that specifically.


I actually took the XP9000iH apart and can confirm that there is No connection At All on the neutral of the 50 amp connector. I even checked it with my ohm meter.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> I actually took the XP9000iH apart and can confirm that there is No connection At All on the neutral of the 50 amp connector. I even checked it with my ohm meter.


Sorry I meant the XP9000iH -pk parallel box. No continuity between the neutral and ground on the 50 amp plug.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

This is definitely how its wired. I double checked just to make sure.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> This is definitely how its wired. I double checked just to make sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No continuity between the B and B parallel plugs?


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> No continuity between the B and B parallel plugs?


I will check


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> I will check


Just Checked Yep I forgot to add that. Sorry


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Yup. It's fairly conclusive that based on that schematic, it will work on either 120V- or 240V-only generator(s).... just not both voltages at the same time.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)




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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Heres some picts of the inside


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

Rob Kelley said:


> Just Checked Yep I forgot to add that. Sorry
> View attachment 11929


so is that a L5-30????
or an L6-30 socket?
L5-30 is for 120 vac only
L6-30 is for 120/240 operation.

i do not see that wired as nec safe by your diagram...


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

iowagold said:


> so is that a L5-30????
> or an L6-30 socket?


It is actually a *L6-30R* (reference post #8). The L5-30R reference came from the Champion wiring diagram, but that does not apply to this kit...close, but no banana.

So, the actual wiring of the XP9000iH-pk parallel box is this...


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

ok cool.
all i see there is no connection on the neutral...
it needs this for 120/240 operation...


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

@Rob Kelley A question for you. What is the load you are trying to hook up? Is it a distribution panel with mixed 120V and 240V loads? And, how much current are you needing/wanting? The full 60+ amps?


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

iowagold said:


> so is that a L5-30????
> or an L6-30 socket?
> L5-30 is for 120 vac only
> L6-30 is for 120/240 operation.
> ...


Yes it’s a L6-30r


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Relabeled Diagram to have the correct L6-30R plug.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Some Info


In a 120/240V single split phase system, the two ungrounded (hot) legs are actually connected to the secondary winding of the distribution transformer. The transformer actually steps down the voltage to 240 volts, so the two legs are a complete 240 volt circuit.

The *grounded (neutral)* conductor is connected to the center of the coil (center tap), which is why it provides half the voltage.










Therefore, if a device requires only 240V, only two ungrounded (hot) conductors are required to supply the device. If a device runs on 120V, one ungrounded (hot) conductor and one *grounded (neutral)* conductor are needed. If a device needs both 120V and 240V, then two ungrounded (hot) conductors and one *grounded (neutral)* conductor must be used.

If you connect a load between the two ungrounded legs of the circuit, you can see how you have a complete circuit through the coil.










If you connect a load between one of the ungrounded conductors, and the *grounded (neutral) *conductor. You can also get a complete circuit, though it's only through half of the coil.


















Since these circuits only include half the coil, the voltage is also half


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Ground and neutral terms are not usually interchanged although some refer to them as being the same. Neutral is a current carrying conductor. Ground is for safety and only carries current in a fault condition. Yes, the two are bonded together at the service entrance. There should be only one N-G bonding location for a given home electrical system.

Did you see my post #60?


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> @Rob Kelley A question for you. What is the load you are trying to hook up? Is it a distribution panel with mixed 120V and 240V loads? And, how much current are you needing/wanting? The full 60+ amps?


I would like to get the full amount the 50 amp connector can handle 12,500 watts.

This is from the Duromax reviews

*Steve*
· 5 months ago 
*So if I wanted to buy two generators and the parallel kit and tie them into my breaker panel, How can I get the maximum combined power? Would I be limited to 50A, and then have the spare 30A I would have to run extension cords? *
1answer 

Answer this Question 

Duromax Technical Support 
· 5 months ago 

Yes, the 50 amp receptacle and the 30 amp receptacle will need to be used at the same time to take full advantage of the power output available. Please note that any 50 amp receptacle will be limited to 12,000 watts at its peak capacity.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

The 240 is split at the breaker box. Iv got 120v on each leg. Im not using any 240v appliances.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

What is the load you are trying to hook up? Is it a distribution panel with mixed 120V and 240V loads?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> The 240 is split at the breaker box. Iv got 120v on each leg. Im not using any 240 appliances.


Okay. We posted at the same time again.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Since you have two 120V legs (240V coming in), then the DuroMax parallel kit is not correctly wired to provide that. Take a look at these two methods...

















You can see that both have a continuous ground wire all the way from the service entrance to the generator. The main differences are how the neutral wire is handled...switched vs not switched. The separately derived system also has a ground rod at the gen.

However, both methods require 4 wires...3 conductors (2 hots & 1 neutral) and 1 ground wire.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Thats what I was thinking also. 
This is how I wired mine.Im using an interlock kit and power inlet box.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> Some Info
> 
> 
> In a 120/240V single split phase system, the two ungrounded (hot) legs are actually connected to the secondary winding of the distribution transformer. The transformer actually steps down the voltage to 240 volts, so the two legs are a complete 240 volt circuit.
> ...


Yes, familiar with how 120V are derived. But you're missing the point. You cannot design your circuit to have current flowing over a ground conductor, period.

Logic dictates that since Neutral is bonded to Ground "somewhere", it will be fine to treat Ground terminals as Neutral. Well, it's not! Any Neutral current flowing over the Ground terminal is considered "Objectionable Current". You can look it up.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Guys, I was wrong. Eating a crow sandwich as we speak.

It looks like the terminals in the parallel kit are easy to access. You could run a neutral from both generators and terminate them on the receptacle yourself to get the center for your split phase panel. If I was doing it myself, I'd unbond both generators' neutrals, and run the two now-disconnected neutral wires to the receptacle on the parallel kit. Keep the neutral bonding location in your main panel, and get an interlock kit to switch between generator/utility without a transfer switch (or else use a 2 pole transfer switch).


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

It looks like I cant use the Duromax parallel kit. I am going to give them a call today and see what they recommend. It will be interesting.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> It looks like I cant use the Duromax parallel kit. I am going to give them a call today and see what they recommend. It will be interesting.


Check out the Genmax. It's a Duromax with some upgrades (exhaust out the back instead of the side, and an easier air filter change). It's also cheaper than the Duromax. And it has a neutral socket in the parallel kit.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> It looks like I cant use the Duromax parallel kit.


It can be modified, but see what DuroMax has to say about this kit first. From reading thru the various Q&As on several websites for this kit, there is conflicting information being provided by DuroMax support personnel.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> This is how I wired mine.Im using an interlock kit and power inlet box.


In that video he is actually creating a setup that is not separately derived. Notice that the neutral wire is not being switched.

Also, in that setup, the N-G bond would need to be disconnected at the gen because the N-G bond at the panel remains in place.

As I said in post #37, the N-G bond at your gen can be disconnected.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> It can be modified, but see what DuroMax has to say about this kit first. From reading thru the various Q&As on several websites for this kit, there is conflicting information being provided by DuroMax support personnel.


I just got off the phone with them. The answers I got were ALL over the place. Basically it should work. I am on my own. I might just stay with the one generator to be safe. Thanks for all you help. 
Oh the times we live in.🙃


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> I just got off the phone with them. The answers I got were ALL over the place.


I am not surprised by that. There is no way to explain this kit that would make any sense.

I think there is a way to make it work if you want to go there. It would require modifications, or just build your own from scratch.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Just a quick question. I know this won't fix everything but would adding a jumper from the ground to the neutral help in anyway. This was recommended by an electrician friend.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Im still a day or 2 away from hooking this up just to see what happens.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> I know this won't fix everything but would adding a jumper from the ground to the neutral help in anyway.


No, the jumper won't change anything. The kit will still carry neutral current on the ground wire. Very hazardous!


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

What could actually could go wrong hooking it up the way they’ve got it just curious.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> No, the jumper won't change anything. The kit will still carry neutral current on the ground wire. Very hazardous!


What could actually could go wrong hooking it up the way they’ve got it just curious


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

sorry for the double post


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> Just a quick question. I know this won't fix everything but would adding a jumper from the ground to the neutral help in anyway. This was recommended by an electrician friend.
> View attachment 11945


I think we're going on an endless loop here. It has been already established or at the least, implied, that that is not a good idea. You do not want Neutral current to flow across the ground terminals and consequently on the chassis, which is what you're going at.

I'll give you this, however....

*IF* you can extract the Neutrals from both generator and add a 4th wire (Neutral) on the parallel kit, terminating at the unused terminal on the 50R, then *IF* the generator inverter module supports that configuration... meaning, Hot1, Hot2, and Neutral from both gens are tied together, and they can negotiate that way, then _maybe_ you'll be able to get both 120V and 240V out of it. Those are big "*IFs*". If you know what you're doing, you should be able to carry out this experiment with just fuses and breakers tripping. At worst, well... let's just say insurance might not lend a hand if you're sporting an NEC violation or two.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> What could actually could go wrong hooking it up the way they’ve got it just curious


I will give you a hypothetical scenario that could happen...

Suppose you have the two gens up and running with the parallel kit. Now, suppose that the ground wire to one of the gens gets loosened up due to the vibration of the unit. What you would have then would be a possible electrocution situation if you walked up and touched both gens at the same time. The frames are ground. Neutral is not ground.

Other things can go wrong too.

So, the correct way to hook up the gens is what has been said here repeatedly. You need 4 wires to have 120/240V.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

I just cant believe Duromax would sell something like this to the public, knowing what could happen. Crazy world.
Thanks again guys for all your help.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> I think we're going on an endless loop here. It has been already established or at the least, implied, that that is not a good idea. You do not want Neutral current to flow across the ground terminals and consequently on the chassis, which is what you're going at.
> 
> I'll give you this, however....
> 
> *IF* you can extract the Neutrals from both generator and add a 4th wire (Neutral) on the parallel kit, terminating at the unused terminal on the 50R, then *IF* the generator inverter module supports that configuration... meaning, Hot1, Hot2, and Neutral from both gens are tied together, and they can negotiate that way, then _maybe_ you'll be able to get both 120V and 240V out of it. Those are big "*IFs*". If you know what you're doing, you should be able to carry out this experiment with just fuses and breakers tripping. At worst, well... let's just say insurance might not lend a hand if you're sporting an NEC violation or two.


I thought the neutrals and the grounds were tied together in the breaker box.


----------



## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Rob Kelley said:


> I thought the neutrals and the grounds were tied together in the breaker box.


Yes, but you're missing what's happening in the cable and generator frames upstream from the breaker box...


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> I just cant believe Duromax would sell something like this to the public, knowing what could happen. Crazy world.
> Thanks again guys for all your help.


To their credit, what they did wasn't particularly unsafe. At most, they're probably guilty of poor documentation and bad aftersales support. But the gen themselves appear to be sound. Frankly, it's what you were planning to do with it is what's making it unsafe.




Rob Kelley said:


> I thought the neutrals and the grounds were tied together in the breaker box.


Yes they are, but individually, they serve vastly different purposes. Neutral is designed to pass unbalanced current. On the other hand, you shouldn't see current flowing through ground unless there's a fault somewhere. Your proposal to use Ground as a Neutral violates that.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

OrlyP said:


> To their credit, what they did wasn't particularly unsafe. At most, they're probably guilty of poor documentation and bad aftersales support. But the gen themselves appear to be sound. Frankly, it's what you were planning to do with it is what's making it unsafe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a question I ask Duromax online


> > > Can I get 120v AND 240v out of both the connectors on the XP9000iH-PK parallel kit. or does it have to be 240v only. The connector on the left is a L6-30R which has 3 connections, X and Y Hot and a Ground,The Connector on the right is a 14-50R which has 4 connections, X and Y Hot and a Neutral and a Ground. It seems that the L6-30R could also have 120 volts on each X andY legs to ground since the XP9000iHs neutral is bonded to the ground. Just curious


This was an answer from Duromax


> > It would use 120 volts if that is what is applied. The generators(parallel kit) will detect what voltage is drawing through the 30A and 50A connections for both.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

When I asked Duromax at the time I didn't know there was no neutral connected on the 50a plug.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Rob Kelley said:


> The connector on the left is a L6-30R which has 3 connections, X and Y Hot and a Ground,





Rob Kelley said:


> When I asked Duromax at the time I didn't know there was no neutral connected on the 50a plug.


One of the problems is that you asked the questions incorrectly. For example, an L5-30R 120V receptacle as shown in the diagrams above in posts 62 & 79 only has one hot, one neutral & one ground, not what you stated...

An L6-30R is quite different and the diagram would reflect it. It is 240 ONLY and there is no neutral. It would likely assume a Neutral-Ground bond. My notes say to only use it for discrete balanced 240V devices, not for unbalanced 240V feeds.


----------



## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

tabora said:


> One of the problems is that you asked the questions incorrectly. For example, an L5-30R 120V receptacle as shown in the diagrams above in posts 62 & 79 only has one hot, one neutral & one ground, not what you stated...


It also have everything to do with how the parallel ports were wired on the gen.

The gen is 120/240V so you are correct that one of the parallel port is actually Neutral (from the perspective of the gen). That's logical since the parallel kit is stated to be 120V only.

Hate it when they don't provide the schematic.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

tabora said:


> One of the problems is that you asked the questions incorrectly. For example, an L5-30R 120V receptacle as shown in the diagrams above in posts 62 & 79 only has one hot, one neutral & one ground, not what you stated...
> 
> An L6-30R is quite different and the diagram would reflect it.


Its a long story here's the correct diagram. Sorry


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Im going to throw in the towel and say that the Duromax XP9000iH parallel box is only for 240v only not 120/240. To bad.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

^ 120V-only.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Rob Kelley said:


> Its a long story here's the correct diagram. Sorry


No, that diagram IS NOT CORRECT. It's been relabeled as an L6-30R, but it's clearly an L5-30R with one hot, one neutral and one ground. Again: An L6-30R is quite different and the diagram would reflect it. It is 240 ONLY and there is no neutral. It would likely assume a Neutral-Ground bond. My notes say to only use it for discrete balanced 240V devices, not for unbalanced 240V feeds.

To state this a different way, an L6-30R would be suitable for a kitchen range, or a clothes dryer, or a water heater, or a symmetric computer rack or a UPS, but not for a feed to an unbalanced breaker panel.

_The NEMA L6-30 is used for input on the domestic APC Matrix-UPS, Smart-UPS *T* models, and Symmetra RM 2-6kva UPS. The NEMA L6-30 receptacle is also used as an output receptacle for supplying 208 VAC in the Matrix-UPS, the Smart-UPS T models, and single phase Symmetra systems (Power Array, RM, LX). It is a locking two-pole, three-wire grounding receptacle with a maximum input of 250V and 30A. When used with APC's UPS models, the receptacle will generally provide either 208V or 240V(depending on the UPS model). This receptacle requires that three connections be made (see diagram below). The loads on L1 and L2 should be virtually equal._​​_ G= Ground _​_ X= L1 (Hot) _​_ Y= L2 (Hot) _​


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

sorry Im working right know trying to correct it


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

tabora said:


> No, that diagram IS NOT CORRECT. It's been relabeled as an L6-30R, but it's clearly an L5-30R with one hot, one neutral and one ground. Again: An L6-30R is quite different and the diagram would reflect it. It is 240 ONLY and there is no neutral. It would likely assume a Neutral-Ground bond. My notes say to only use it for discrete balanced 240V devices, not for unbalanced 240V feeds.
> 
> To state this a different way, an L6-30R would be suitable for a kitchen range, or a clothes dryer, or a water heater, or a symmetric computer rack or a UPS, but not for a feed to an unbalanced breaker panel.
> 
> _The NEMA L6-30 is used for input on the domestic APC Matrix-UPS, Smart-UPS *T* models, and Symmetra RM 2-6kva UPS. The NEMA L6-30 receptacle is also used as an output receptacle for supplying 208 VAC in the Matrix-UPS, the Smart-UPS T models, and single phase Symmetra systems (Power Array, RM, LX). It is a locking two-pole, three-wire grounding receptacle with a maximum input of 250V and 30A. When used with APC's UPS models, the receptacle will generally provide either 208V or 240V(depending on the UPS model). This receptacle requires that three connections be made (see diagram below). The loads on L1 and L2 should be virtually equal._​​_ G= Ground _​_ X= L1 (Hot) _​_ Y= L2 (Hot) _​


Sorry for the Quality I hand drew it.


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Sorry for the Quality I hand drew it.
> View attachment 11958
> View attachment 11959
> View attachment 11960
> ...


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

maybe it is made for uk or other areas of the world that are 230-240 only on the mains???


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The diagram in post #95 is correct, and it has a L6-30R (not L5-30R).

What DuroMax is doing is technically correct if the kit is being used for 240V only. Nowhere in their abysmal documentation do they state that this kit is for 120/240V operation that I can find. It will work fine for 240V only, and it will actually work for 120V only.

That said, I would bet that most people buying this don't realize it is for single voltage only operation. Most would want 120/240V.

The kit can be modified for 120/240V by bringing the neutral to it. And, since the OP wants to wire this to his 120/240V panel, then the N-G bonds on both gens needs to be removed as I posted earlier. His distribution panel would have the necessary N-G bond in it.


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> The diagram in post #95 is correct, and it has a L6-30R (not L5-30R).
> 
> What DuroMax is doing is technically correct if the kit is being used for 240V only. Nowhere in their abysmal documentation do they state that this kit is for 120/240V operation that I can find. It will work fine for 240V only, and it will actually work for 120V only.
> 
> ...


Did you see my latest diagram I hand drew in post #101.


----------



## anderep (9 mo ago)

the xp9000ih-pk uses the ground wire as the neutral path/no connection for neutral wire on 50a receptacle. *can NOT be used with a interlock kit.* you need a three pole transfer switch which will disconnect the utility ground wire from the house. i wonder if the neutral wire is connected on the genset? can someone measure the voltage to neutral on the genset? 

picture shows using it with interlock kit. which is against their guidance.








9,000 Watt Dual Fuel Portable Inverter Generator w/ CO Alert


XP9000iH Specifications Gasoline Peak Wattage 9,000 Running Wattage 7,600 Running Amperage at 120V 63.33 Running Amperage at 240V 31.66 Runtime at 25% Load 20 Runtime at 50% Load 11 Propane Peak Wattage 8,550 Running Wattage 7,200 Running Amperage at 120V 60 Running Amperage at 240V 30 Runtime...




www.duromaxpower.com


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> Did you see my latest diagram I hand drew in post #101.


Yes. Same as the previous diagram in #95.


----------



## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Some gens come with 3 conductor connections (2 hots & 1 neutral) at the panel + a ground lug. They also use a 4-wire parallel kit (3 conductors + 1 ground). Here is an example:
Powerhorse Inverter Generator 7500/6500





Powerhorse Inverter Generator 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse® Inverter Generator provides more power with less noise, plus low 1.5% total harmonic distortion for safely running sensit...




www.northerntool.com




Powerhorse Parallel Cable Kit





Powerhorse Parallel Cable Kit Connects 7500 Watt to 7500 Watt Inverter Generators | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse® Parallel Cable Kit allows you to connect two Powerhorse 7500 Watt inverter generators together for up to a maximum 13,000...




www.northerntool.com


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> Yes. Same as the previous diagram in #95.


I made just a few changes


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

GenKnot said:


> Yes. Same as the previous diagram in #95.


Except for the "W".


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

anderep said:


> the xp9000ih-pk uses the ground wire as the neutral path/no connection for neutral wire on 50a receptacle. *can NOT be used with a interlock kit.* you need a three pole transfer switch which will disconnect the utility ground wire from the house. i wonder if the neutral wire is connected on the genset? can someone measure the voltage to neutral on the genset?
> 
> picture shows using it with interlock kit. which is against their guidance.
> 
> ...


Something that should have been so simple has been turned upside-down. Ridiculous.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

tabora said:


> Except for the "W".


Yup. But don't get hung up on the W because that is a carryover from the Champion diagram. The kit is still *wired* the same in post 95 & 101.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

What the **** is going on. Very Interesting what I just ran across, this is the latest picture from there site of the predator 9500 front panel only having 2 hot legs for the parallel hookup just like the Duromax XP9000iH








Heres another picture I found of the predator 9500 on line that shows it WITH the neutral connection.



Oh the madness 🙃


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Don't know, but the Predator 9500 is voltage selectable, so maybe that has something to with the change.

Anyway, back to the DuroMax kit...

I have alluded to this multiple times...the kit can be modified to work 120/240V IMHO. Orly essentially said the same thing in post #85.

Here is a suggested example using a Y-cable to make the neutral connections from the kit to the gens. This uses the existing L6-30 receptacle on the kit to connect back to the L14-30 receptacles on the gens with no connections made to the X-Y terminals at the gens. It could also be done in other ways. The N-G bond at both gens needs to be disconnected for this to work. <---very important

Note also that the 50A breaker will not kill the power to both sides of the 50A 14-50R...you would still have one 120V leg hot. If that is a concern for you, then the breaker could be changed out for a double-pole. I am just trying to show it with the fewest modifications as possible.

The G/W wires for the grounds in the Y-cable is optional. It doesn't hurt anything to have them...it is just extra security just in case the ground lug terminal should come loose. Since twist-lock connectors are being used, there should not be any issue with a connection coming loose. What is a must for the Y-cable is the neutral wires back to both gens from the kit.

These modifications are, of course, made at your own risk!


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Check out some ones opinion on this from another site.

The Duromax parallel design is the only one that is done completely right as is. It only gets complicated if you start modifying the generators by removing the neutral bond. Then you need to be aware that the parallel kit isn't going to be okay without modification also.

So many different opinions. Crazy
Thanks for your mod


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

So simple


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Rob Kelley said:


> So simple


Yes, it is simple if you have the 4-wire capability to parallel the units.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

Disapointed in Duromax


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## anderep (9 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> What the **** is going on. Very Interesting what I just ran across, this is the latest picture from there site of the predator 9500 front panel only having 2 hot legs for the parallel hookup just like the Duromax XP9000iH
> View attachment 11967
> 
> Heres another picture I found of the predator 9500 on line that shows it WITH the neutral connection.
> ...


i don't see it! where?


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

anderep said:


> i don't see it! where?



These 2 picts are the same Predator 9500 from different web sites.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Rob Kelley said:


> These 2 picts are the same Predator 9500 from different web sites.


Perhaps they wised up?


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

tabora said:


> Perhaps they wised up?


And here’s the great part about all of it the photo with the missing neutral is the latest picture


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## JasonW (7 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Could someone give me there thoughts on what you think about the way Duromax is doing there parallel box the xp9000ih-pk, with 2 xp9000ih generators. On the front panel there is no neutral connection only two hots and the ground which neutral is bonded to the frame. On parallel box there's no neutral wire at all and on the 50a connector on the parallel box the neutral is not even connected to the ground internally. On the parallel box the wording over the 4 wire 50a connector and the 3 wire 30 connector say 240v. not 120/240 like the front panel on the generator. All of this this just seems odd to me. Thanks for any help Inverter Parallel Kit for XP9000iH Generator


I'm not an electrician. I don't even play one on TV. What I say is just my "take" and not to be taken with any authority or direction. I'm not responsible if you burn your house down or cause your electrical code book to spontaneously burst into flames. 

If you plugged a dryer or oven *directly* into the 50amp socket of the parallel kit, the device might not work right because it won't have a neutral (it wasn't connected in the parallel kit housing as your later posts in this thread indicate) 

With many 240V loads you will end up with a slight imbalance. Yes, 240V devices pull equally from the X and Y legs. However many 240V appliances also have 120V components in them as well. (consider the light bulb inside your dryer or oven, it's probably not a 240V lamp, it's a 120V Lamp just wired between neutral and one leg. They won't bother with a 240V transformer to supply 40 or 60 watts just for a light bulb, so they simply pull 120V power from one leg. Often the electronics in a 240V device will do this as well) Generally though, these imbalanced loads are relatively mild. But, if you directly connected it to the parallel kit, it might not power the electronics or the 120V parts of it due to the missing neutral. *But*, once you plug it into your inlet and it passes through the breaker box, all that changes.

I read most of the thread here, and I guess it does make sense they didn't wire the neutral on the 50A plug, because there is no dedicated neutral wire coming from the generators.

This is one of the things I don't like about the Duromax, is that lack of a dedicated neutral. If you have a large 120V appliance, it will be using the ground cable as the return path (neutral). This is why in the comments on my Predator 9500 video series, when people ask about the Duromax, I've advised people keep that ground cable really tight and don't let your finger get between it and the generator when it's running. There will be voltage on it. 

Each generator will have neutral bonded, and in your breaker box, if you look you will see that your neutral wires share the same bus bar as the ground wires. So they are very much bonded in the breaker box as well. In the video about connecting the generator to your home, when it shows my breaker box you can also see this. 

So when you connect the generators in a pair using the parallel kit, you're feeding X, and Y into the box, and you're connecting ground, which will double as a neutral. The actual neutral cable in your extension hook up cord between the parallel kit and the home inlet isn't being used. 

*As long as your ground cable is of a sufficient gauge to handle the imbalance current, this will probably work. (Note that this includes the ground wire on the back of the generator panel) *
I don't like it... I like the neutral to be there to carry that load, and the ground to be there as a backup.

But at the end of the day, the neutral and the ground are presently connected together in 3 places (each generator, and your breaker box). 

I believe this is the part isn't to "code". You're supposed to have only one place where they join, and this is why some people will disconnect the frame bond in their generators. But, if the hookup is considered "temporary", most people generally aren't bothered with it. (If it's one of those whole house generator that's always connected, they do wire those to code without the bond.)

So for example:

On my generators, if I disconnected the parallel kit _ground_ from the front panel of each generator, and the machines were running powering my house... nothing would happen. The Neutral would be the return path. Now reset the scenario. If I had everything connected, and then disconnected only the neutrals (but ground was connected on each) again, nothing would happen. (the return load would be coming over the ground cable). (GFCIs on the generator won't trip because the parallel connection bypasses those as well as the breakers on the front panel) Though at this point, I would want to be more cautious with that exposed ground lug, because if you were to loosen it, it would spark / arc as that's the voltage return path for all the non-240v devices on each of your legs.

Your system is wired the same as this last description. Ground will be serving as the neutral between the generators and your home (there is no other path for it to take), and as you showed, that parallel kit doesn't even have the neutral wired up. 

However, once it hits the breaker box, the neutral and ground are bonded again. So your devices inside the home have a "neutral", and that neutral wire in all of the outlets in your home will be functional because of the bond made in the breaker box giving it a return path. Once that return hits the breaker box, it finishes the final part of the circle/circuit over the ground cable, back to the inverters in your generator(s). So your 120V appliances and devices should function normally and not "know" anything is odd.

So I guess the big question to find out, is if the ground cabling inside your generator and in the parallel kit are sufficient to handle the imbalance (ground serving as neutral) for running normal 120V appliances.


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

JasonW said:


> I'm not an electrician. I don't even play one on TV. What I say is just my "take" and not to be taken with any authority or direction. I'm not responsible if you burn your house down or cause your electrical code book to spontaneously burst into flames.
> 
> If you plugged a dryer or oven *directly* into the 50amp socket of the parallel kit, the device might not work right because it won't have a neutral (it wasn't connected in the parallel kit housing as your later posts in this thread indicate)
> 
> ...



Parallel cable wiring diagram using the L4-30 front panel connectors. Should be way better and safer.


----------



## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Just a quick question. I know this won't fix everything but would adding a jumper from the ground to the neutral help in anyway. This was recommended by an electrician friend.
> View attachment 11945


I'm a bit behind in the convo, but this ^ is what I was talking about earlier in this thread. True-- as someone else said, you'll have neutral current flowing on a green ground wire. But it's a solution to get 240/120V, and the other generators have different issues as well (2 neutral bonding locations). It should have no voltage on it if your ground is solid. If you wanted to make it more legit, land the ring terminal on the backside of the ground stud where the internal wiring has the G and N joined. Or make a pigtail from that stud and bring it out front to an insulated connector; snip off the ring terminal and crimp on the other side of the insulated connector. Then wrap the ground wire with white electrical tape.

The color of the wire jacket being green is a bit ambiguous, because if Duromax was using that as a combo neutral/gnd bus, to basically join the neutral/gnd point on both generators into one continuous neutral/gnd bus, then what color should it be? It's not only a ground, it's not only a neutral, it's the junction between the two. 

And finally, if you unbond the neutral and ground on the generators, you need 4 wires in the parallel kit.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Check out some ones opinion on this from another site.
> 
> The Duromax parallel design is the only one that is done completely right as is. It only gets complicated if you start modifying the generators by removing the neutral bond. Then you need to be aware that the parallel kit isn't going to be okay without modification also.
> 
> ...


This was me on youtube. I should go back and edit it, since I did not know Duromax removed the neutral jumper and made it 240V only.


----------



## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Parallel cable wiring diagram using the L4-30 front panel connectors. Should be way better and safer.
> View attachment 11992


Yes, this is a good solution. Two thumbs up from me.


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

PipapoGuapo said:


> Yes, this is a good solution. Two thumbs up from me.


This is what Duromax just sent me. WOW

I would recommend having an electrician assist you with connecting the generator and parallel kit. The parallel kit won't have a separate neutral tied to it because the neutral is already bonded to the generator ground. If the neutral wire was ran to a parallel kit from a bonded neutral generator then this can cause back feed. You would want to have the generator and parallel kits connected into a 3 pole transfer switch. I would recommend one from the brand attached: X-Series Neutral Switching Panels - Products - Reliance Controls Corporation.

Thank you,

Duromax
Support Team


----------



## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

I don't quite follow what Duromax is implying there.


----------



## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

JasonW said:


> I'm not an electrician. I don't even play one on TV. What I say is just my "take" and not to be taken with any authority or direction. I'm not responsible if you burn your house down or cause your electrical code book to spontaneously burst into flames.
> 
> If you plugged a dryer or oven *directly* into the 50amp socket of the parallel kit, the device might not work right because it won't have a neutral (it wasn't connected in the parallel kit housing as your later posts in this thread indicate)
> 
> ...


This is what Duromax support just sent me. WOW

I would recommend having an electrician assist you with connecting the generator and parallel kit. The parallel kit won't have a separate neutral tied to it because the neutral is already bonded to the generator ground. If the neutral wire was ran to a parallel kit from a bonded neutral generator then this can cause back feed. You would want to have the generator and parallel kits connected into a 3 pole transfer switch. I would recommend one from the brand attached: X-Series Neutral Switching Panels - Products - Reliance Controls Corporation.

Thank you,

Duromax Support
Support Team


----------



## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

That's odd because... the first issue isn't neutral bonding, it's the complete lack of neutral. You don't need a neutral switching panel because there is no neutral to switch. Bizarre response. 

You know, a simple alternative parallel kit would be to just use the 30A outlets as the sources and wire them to an external 50A outlet. It would be relatively simple to make, and all the parts are available at an Ace Hardware. Unbond one or both of the generator neutrals, depending on whether you are feeding a panel with a bonded neutral.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob, did you see that Gavin confirmed everything you've said? Kudos btw of how clearly you've documented everything.


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

PipapoGuapo said:


> Rob, did you see that Gavin confirmed everything you've said? Kudos btw of how clearly you've documented everything.


Yea I did. The parallel cable I finally made is working awesome.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> Yea I did. The parallel cable I finally made is working awesome.


If you feel comfortable sharing, I'd be curious to see what you did.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

PipapoGuapo said:


> If you feel comfortable sharing, I'd be curious to see what you did.


He posted it in #123


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> He posted it in #123


 Yeah, I mean pictures of hardware.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

PipapoGuapo said:


> Yeah, I mean pictures of hardware.


👍


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## Rob Kelley (9 mo ago)

GenKnot said:


> 👍


Some Photos. Its 
*Pass & Seymour 3854CC6 Surface Mount Outlet 50-Amp 125-volt/250-volt*


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Very nice. Simple and functional.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Be careful though. It's essentially a suicide cord with a 50A receptacle in the middle.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Be careful though. It's essentially a suicide cord with a 50A receptacle in the middle.


Yes it is, so it has to be used with appropriate caution. But since Duramax only gives you three wires to parallel these generators, then you have to resort to alternative methods. It's a shame that they did it that way.


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## PipapoGuapo (8 mo ago)

Rob Kelley said:


> ...


I like it! Nice job. I like the idea of just using the receptacles and not the parallel plugs. Those prongs will be hot if only one side is plugged in. There's not an obvious way to make it safer that comes to mind without using something fancy like a welding or RV receptacle. You just need to follow the procedure correctly, which is fine for the guy who made it, but don't let your friend use it.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

PipapoGuapo said:


> Those prongs will be hot if only one side is plugged in.


And there would probably be a situation in which that would occur such as taking one unit offline for some sort of maintenance. I would keep a L14-30R locking receptacle handy to cover the open/unused end of the parallel kit to keep it safe.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

When you're in a pickle, code or no code, you do what you gotta do. You'll just have to know well enough of what can go wrong and how to avoid them. Equally, you should be aware of the risks and the responsibilities that comes with your decision for if something should go wrong.


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## Max Powers (3 mo ago)

reviving a dead thread here. so paralleling 2 genmax 9000s gives me more than a 50 amp out let can put out. what is the point then? or...how could i parallel them to get max output into my transfer switch? in the winter id need 1 running, but in the summer 2 could handle the AC, but id rater get the max output into the house with 2 running.

second...i have to remove the neutral bond in the genmax because my manual transfer switch does not switch nuetral. should i ground the units to a rod at that point? is it safe to have the cooling fans in the enclosure pluged directly into the generators with neutral bonds removed at that point. thought being i will exercise the generator without the transfer switch thrown sometime and id like the fan running in the enclosure if the generators are.

just reading this thread kept me from buying the duromax with the parallel kit and steered me to the proper setup for my switch which will be the genmax with neutral. good stuff


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Max Powers said:


> so paralleling 2 genmax 9000s gives me more than a 50 amp out let can put out. what is the point then? or...how could i parallel them to get max output into my transfer switch? in the winter id need 1 running, but in the summer 2 could handle the AC, but id rater get the max output into the house with 2 running.


Use a 60Amp, 70Amp, or 75Amp connector on the parallel box and inlet breaker?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Max Powers said:


> so paralleling 2 genmax 9000s gives me more than a 50 amp out let can put out. what is the point then? or...how could i parallel them to get max output into my transfer switch?


Technically each gen can output 30A per leg on propane (31.7A on gasoline), which would make 60A available on propane. But, the gen has a 50A breaker on the 50A L14-50 receptacle. That receptacle is popular for connecting to a house. It is not a good idea IMHO to try and push 100% loading on a generator if you want it to last.

You could upgrade the receptacle and breaker as tabora suggested to get 100% output.

Also, trying to get 60A into the house moves you up to the next larger wire gauge (which ain't cheap nowadays!). You would need a minimum of 4 gauge wire to meet code. Just not worth it...again IMHO.


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## Max Powers (3 mo ago)

That's what I was thinking. The generator has a 50 amp plug and 50amp wiring. Parallel though That's like 12k max plug but 15k some potential. I'm just wondering why Parallel is ever worth it if you are running a 15k some potential to get 12.



Any thoughts on enclosure cooling fans plugged directly into gensets with neutral unbounded?


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## Max Powers (3 mo ago)

My transfer switch is 400amp doest switch neutral...thats an entirely different conversation. But I can put anything I want into it.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Max Powers said:


> Any thoughts on enclosure cooling fans plugged directly into gensets with neutral unbounded?


Shouldn't be an issue. Just keep in mind the total loading on the gen. Many people put meters (one on each leg) near their panel so that they know how much load the gen(s) has on it, and also to know if each leg is balanced as close as possible.


Max Powers said:


> I'm just wondering why Parallel is ever worth it if you are running a 15k some potential to get 12.


One reason is when you don't need the full capacity of paralleled gens, it is better to run only one gen and save on fuel. Plus, if one gen needs maintenance (or dies) you can take it offline and still have the other one supply the house (with less amperage available of course). Having one gen online is better than having none.


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## Max Powers (3 mo ago)

who want to pull apart my plan here? Ill try to do this without a diagram in the order from the pole to the house:

400amp service single meter on my pole i dont need 400amp or 2 200 amp panels but that's just how it is. lots of room. 

400 amp suitable for service entrance manual transfer switch.
-transfer switch is 2 pole, it does not switch neutral
-neutral bus in transfer switch is not bonded. i left the non bonded plastic screw in the bus bar and did not put the service disconnect sticker on the switch as per the instructions on the switch
-transfer switch case equipment bond is grounded to a rod for the heck of it but remember neutral bus is not bonded to case
-50 amp twist lock receptacle wired to transfer switch
-service is spit in the transfer switch which has the lugs to do this it goes underground to 2 main panels from here, 3 wires to each


#1-200 amp panel
neutral is bonded here grounds and neutrals mixed
system grounding rod

#2-200 amp panel
neutral is bonded here grounds and neutrals mixed
system grounding rod

generator plan
genmax 9000 maybe 2 some day but for now one. sensible load management and without AC I won't need 2
unbond neutral from genmax as it is bonded on both panels
use 50 amp plug on genmax to 50 amp receptacle on transfer switch.
ground genmax frame to a rod

am i missing anything safety wise? i did have an electrician do the switch, the generator im setting up myself.

split service two main panels, each with individually bonded grounds/neutrals off one service is done all the time. i know this is ok
im not super interested in interpretations of the SUSE switch being my first point of disconnect, neutral is not bonded there so im calling it just a switch. my disconnects are my 2 mains, one on each panel.

my only concern is safely hooking up the generator. All im coming up with in my head is that there is no system ground from the panels back to the generator. but the generator will have a grounding rod and has its own main breaker as far as i understand. the generators neutral bond will be through the cord to the panel bonds. so the house over current protection is as it always is when on line power. the generators over current protection is its 50 amp main and ground. am i missing anything?


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