# Did you know, not generator connected!



## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

This post is not generator connected, but in some cases it could be useful.
We all find things that we do not understand when first observed, so I will start there.
I own a Fisher Paykel washer and dryer. (FP)
Doing some work I discovered that there was 38 vac on the ground. 
Not possible I thought, yet it would get your attention.
I went back and forth with FP.
I finally let it die as I was getting nowhere.
The solution was that FP had put a smoothing RC on the AC and tied it to the ground.
Later I discovered that FP clearly noted that a GFI was not to be used as both AC and DC was used in the control circuits.
Well in NEC a GFI is required in and any water related use. 
Here we are, caught between FP and the code.
I wonder sometimes.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

How is your gnd terminated?


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

@Melson: My house was wired in the 50's and I was separating the grounds from the neutrals when I got bit by the stray voltage. 
I traced it back to the washer GFI and then went looking for the voltage on the washer ground.
I had a round with FP until I figured that even a class action law suit would be not successful.
I let it drop.
This brings up the question of what if the outlet was not grounded?
Could you have gotten shocked!
Oh well, not worth the trouble as nothing was hurt.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

That's really curious. How about UL approval? On the face of it, definitely, sure seems goofy.

I had a grounding 'foopah', very similar to yours. That was first home, long ago. I remember taking the entrance meter apart (whole 'nuther story there) running new #2 entrance feed, then tracing and bonding gnds, and jumping the water meter. 
As you suggest, the old New England homes weren't built to modern building codes now required. If we had the proper forum I'd tell a true story about discovering a bare, live, HV feed snaking along the ceiling of a busy telephone office in the Berkshires. No insulation, spaced, single bakelite insulators.
The office staff thought it was low volt DC. Death On Contact waiting to happen.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Was this on the washer or dryer? If dryer Electric dryer or gas?


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> Was this on the washer or dryer? If dryer Electric dryer or gas?


The washer is where the ground was found.
The dryer is 240 vac.
While on that dryer subject:
We recently found that the dryer would not being shut down properly.
Come to find out we had been stopping it improperly and had welded a relay contact.
Proper stop is to use the display to stop the dryer, not open the door.
Then me being the repair man I pretend to be I was going to repair the board.
The board had to be returned due to a large core deposit.
In today's world of electronics proper procedures have to be adhered to or you pay the price.
Sometimes we are not too smart, but now the washer was a different beast.


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

Melson said:


> That's really curious. How about UL approval? On the face of it, definitely, sure seems goofy.
> 
> I had a grounding 'foopah', very similar to yours. That was first home, long ago. I remember taking the entrance meter apart (whole 'nuther story there) running new #2 entrance feed, then tracing and bonding gnds, and jumping the water meter.
> As you suggest, the old New England homes weren't built to modern building codes now required. If we had the proper forum I'd tell a true story about discovering a bare, live, HV feed snaking along the ceiling of a busy telephone office in the Berkshires. No insulation, spaced, single bakelite insulators.
> The office staff thought it was low volt DC. Death On Contact waiting to happen.


 @Melson: Those were Cleat lines and were common in the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Old electricians were very cautious in those days.
I once was on a ladder and touched 550 vac to ground=358 vac. 
Luckily I managed to kick my feet out and fell off the ladder disconnecting myself from the 358 vac.
The entire incident was because a previous electrician had improperly connected the vac thru a Normally closed contact on a relay.
Let me tell you I hurt for days as I connected the 550 to ground thru my arms.
I have other horror stories concerning others, but not now.


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

@ToolLover, you one verrry lucky man. Anything above 277 scares the sh** out of me. 

One time my work associate and I were analyzing a 480 vac fed, 1600 amp Lorain rectifier, using our Brand New! Beckman digital meters (POS junk). The meter's circuit board fused, the resulting fault tripped every ckt bkr on that branch all the way down to the building main. After cleaning our drawers we opened the back of the meter and, get this, the 10 amp fuse was still good. It didn't blow. The rest of the circuit board, including our test leads, were melted. Those were the first, and last, Beckman diagnostic tools we bought. Went all Fluke thereafter and I have to say they were probably the best. Rugged, reliable, accurate.

Thanks for the info about the Cleat line. I had to look that up! 
That instance was one of perhaps two or three of the most wickedly dangerous situations I encountered in my career. You know the saying, "rather be lucky than good".. yah

by the way, I'll be overnighting in your area next week. I hear there's some great restaurants in your town. Any recommendations?


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

I have seen meters blow too.
Worst blow out I saw was when the roof leaked and water got into a 200 amp 600 volt 3 phase panel.
I am glad I was elsewhere.
As to eatery....
Well, there is Outback on Hanes Mall Blvd. 
We had a 58 th first date anniversary there today.
Night time during the week only Outback.
Texas Road at Hanes Mall, good steaks at around $20.
Evening meals only except weekends.
Inside Hanes mall at the food court, but fast foods only.
Golden Corral beside Texas Road house. Eat all you want for $20.
Good pickings.
All classes go there.
Village tavern corner Hanes Mall Blvd and Stratford road.
West End Cafe on west Fourth Street
Foothills Brewery on Forth Street 
Many other places on Forth Street.
Then there are several on Trade Street off of Fourth.
Downtown Winston Salem has a ton of restaurants you can walk to.
Catch a Uber and they are the ones that know where to take you .
Then there is online info.
Small town, but friendly.
PM for private info....


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

we just reached our 50th anni on valentines day. I'll PM you later. thanks


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## Melson (Dec 8, 2019)

@ToolLover, FYI sent you a PM


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

ToolLover said:


> This post is not generator connected, but in some cases it could be useful.
> We all find things that we do not understand when first observed, so I will start there.
> I own a Fisher Paykel washer and dryer. (FP)
> Doing some work I discovered that there was 38 vac on the ground.
> ...


wow!!
yea you have to watch your butt!!
the one hand rule and high volt insulated boots!!

dad got it back in the day on 600 volt dc on a tv transmitter on the ladder..
this would to have been back in 1956
gold ring welded ..
he was lucky to fall the 20 feet off the metal roller ladder they used in the super large transmitter shacks..
he still had marks on his finger 85 years later!!

any one smell chicken??
lol!!
not funny but years later we could joke about it!!

for me it was sitting in a chair and getting hit with ball lightning!!
2x at different locations!

no cameras back then!

yea any old tv or radio guy will tell you a "hot chassis" makes for a bad day!

always when plugging in any thing for the first time check the case or chassis to earth ground..
and same for campers and tow units,
use the back of your hand for test so you do not latch on to the unit!!

hot skin on a camper is a BIG deal for rv folks!
they have the wiring testers that plug right in at the rv plug.
pm me if you need a link to those!


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## ToolLover (Jan 13, 2020)

Lets touch on rings,
We were strictly forbidden to wear wedding rings or an type of rings.
I repeatedly had to tell some of the men to remove them.
Well, we had German built lasers.
They required a fierce set up and the 5000 volts DC was out in the open and just waiting to bite a tech.
I had a hard headed tech that left his ring on and here is what happened.
He had a wrench in his left hand and his knee against the chassis.
He managed to touch the 5K part of the laser.
The ring welded to the wrench keeping him attached until his leg blew away.
He was electrocuted thru his hand, up his arm and out of his knee.
He was quickly attended to by the factory nurse that knew her stuff.
He managed to hold on until he got to the local hospital with the help of the nurse.
I went to visit him the next day and I am telling you he did not look like he was in good shape.
Two weeks later he was back to work and I would not let him near the lasers.
He never wore a ring after that.


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