# Realistic generator expectations for prolonged grid down scenario



## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

I was watching some videos and reading about some of the vulnerabilities of our country's aging electrical grid. I remember way back, much of the northeast went off line in 2003 due to a cascading failure and it took a few days to get everyone back up. I was thinking about how my generator would hold up under a prolonged outage in the event of a catastrophic major component failure, where the lead time for some of the major large regional million dollar substation transformers not kept in inventory can be weeks or even months.

Now that I've successfully converted the EU7000is to natural gas, how long do you think this generator would run...assuming it was running at 25% load and shut down every few days for an oil change, with regular other maintenance like spark plugs, air filter, etc. done on schedule? Is it realistic to think that this unit could get me by for weeks or even a couple of months? I know there are more expensive "prime power" diesel and gas generators that are designed to run continuously, but they are much more expensive and most people don't have them.

I'd hate to think what would happen to society if one of the major 3 grids went down for a prolonged period, but I sure wouldn't want to be without power for a month or more. The recent Puerto Rico grid failure comes to mind. As unlikely as a scenario like this might be, has anyone given this any serious consideration?


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

This could turn in to an interesting and long thread...



Browse Deweb said:


> Now that I've successfully converted the EU7000is to natural gas, how long do you think this generator would run...assuming it was running at 25% load and shut down every few days for an oil change, with regular other maintenance like spark plugs, air filter, etc. done on schedule? Is it realistic to think that this unit could get me by for weeks or even a couple of months? I know there are more expensive "prime power" diesel and gas generators that are designed to run continuously, but they are much more expensive and most people don't have them.


You are correct about prime generators. I'd love to have one, but way out of the budget. One of these days maybe, but I have some other ideas that contradict the viability of a big unit like a prime generator.

If you are stuck to the "screamer" class generators (3600rpm rotaries like all the "portables" and home stand-by's up to the mid-20kw or so range) or inverters (like the EU7k you mention) they, no matter what engine they use, aren't generally going to hold up to a "long" lifespan. Better quality engines like Hondas and the commercial Briggs & Strattons will give you better longevity.

There are some on here that have more experience with maintenance and lube on various engines. The main point I will make is there are tricks to maintenance to get the best life out of an engine. I will defer to those more knowledgeable as to specifics. As you noted - staying up religiously on your maintenance intervals is critical.

Another aspect of the whole scenario is the loading on the generator. If you have a generator that is rated at, say, 8kw running/9.5kw starting - you don't want to run that unit 24/7 at 8kw. Yes, maximizing the wattage to what a generator can provide is going to be the most "fuel efficient" (least fuel burned per kwh at the load you are drawing) - however that is not good for the alternators. Especially if it is real hot out. That is harder on everything. If you can size your running load to 1/2 the running wattage of a unit (if you need 8kw running then go up to a 15kw+ running/18kw+ starting wattage generator or so) that will keep the duty cycle down on the alternator and let everything have more "breathing room".

When you look at continuous, long term running you need to look at both the engine - the mechanical power - and the alternator - what creates the electrical power - pretty hard. With those two pieces of the equation - what do you need to do to maintain them?

With respect to the engine, and you already hit on this - you want to have all the maintenance supplies you need on-hand ready to go for enough to get you through what you might need. You can do the math on what you perceive as being a "long term" outage and work backwards. Oil, oil filters (if you have a pressure lube engine), spark plugs, and any additives that will get you through the regular maintenance are critical. Also look at the long-term maintenance for your engines.

For example - on a honda GX engine at every 300hrs you're supposed to check/adjust valve clearance and at 1000hrs you are to clean the combustion chamber. Those require opening up the engine, they aren't things you can do by pulling a drain plug or spark plug. Do you have the ability to do these tasks?

With respect to the alternator/electrical side of things - voltage regulation can be an issue. If parts in the regulation circuitry go wonky your AC power could suffer. Thankfully, with magnets spinning inside of copper windings there aren't any parts to "go bad", so long as you don't over-heat the coils by overloading. So you really shouldn't have to worry about the heart of the alternator. Again, the loading is important (don't run 24/7 at your generators' rated running wattage). However, things down-stream of the alternator should be taken in to consideration. Capacitors and even the circuit breakers. Figure out how the circuitry works and what parts it uses - and have those on hand. Circuit breakers can and do fail. If your main breaker on the generator goes then you might be in a position to try to bypass it to get things going in a pinch. If you are going to a load panel that has other breakers (hopefully you are) then the other breakers do help, but you have still created a larger hazard by not having protection at the generator. So having a spare main breaker is a great idea.

If you are really concerned about a generator lasting in a prolonged power outage - have a spare/back up unit ready to go.

In my case, I have 3 generators at the moment - on top of power inverters (convert battery power at 12v DC to 120v AC). All the sources weren't initially for the thought of redundancy, they were all progressions of power requirements. I replaced my power inverters with a Honda EU2200i inverter generator, for example. It is quiet and I don't have to worry about draining batteries and needing to start my vehicle engine to have power at times. Prior to that I had around a 2400-2600w rotary generator. It is loud and runs at full speed all the time = much less efficient for small loads than the little Honda. The big one is a 15kw starting/13.5kw running. In all honesty, I don't want to run the big generator - the only scenario I would need to run it is if the power was off for a prolonged period and we needed AC. The 2400-2600w unit has a split phase output and is what I have run for back-up power here in the past, and really it works fine. No need to burn the fuel and run up the hours on the big one unless we need it.

In line with what you are questioning in the thread, also - what fuel, and how much, do you have to run on? With the 3 generators I have - if we were in a position requiring the big one if we don't have the fuel we can't run it, even if we have it. So we have the ability to work backwards.

Everyone's power requirements and priorities are different. In our case - the most important power use is that of refrigeration. That is how we preserve food so it is the highest importance. Right along side that is that of lights and fans. Next up is running a microwave for heating up food (we have other camping stoves - propane, butane, white gas - to cook on, so no problem there, or worst case - wood fire). Then it is consumer electronics - TV's, computers. I have left out air conditioning until now because this is THE highest electrical draw. Depending on your situation - you might consider it the most important thing. Truth is, it is THE hardest load to run on a generator in a prolonged power outage. I would like to put it right next to refrigeration in importance, but if I really dig down and look at what is "critical" - what is critical of running AC is how hard it is to run and it isn't in the realm of possibilities when rationing energy to even think of it, as much as that would really be a downer in the type of scenario you are questioning. When rationing fuel refrigeration is the most important thing. We can live without AC, its hard to eat spoiled food.

With the hierarchy of loads - we can run the essentials on the little Honda EU2200i generator. That is also the most efficient generator. If I got creative I could run a charger off the EU2200i to maintain my truck batteries. Then I could run my big power inverter off the truck for other loads. So while the loads are low on the EU2200i, so too are the RPM's and thus lower fuel consumption, while that fuel that is burned could still have some energy going back in to the truck batteries. Then when I draw power from the inverter and truck batteries I am not adding to the load on the EU2200i at that point so there is no increase in fuel consumption - it will have already put the energy in to the batteries, and when I stop drawing from the inverter it will keep adding energy back in to resupply - without dragging much on the generator. It is the same idea as load balancing, just a different twist to it. All generators are capable of a certain amount of minimum power at their minimum fuel burn. If you are not using that power you are loosing energy. Find a way to maximize the harnessed kwh that you are burning and you'll get the longest "mileage" on what fuel you do have.

Then the oxymoron of everything -

If you don't have (have on hand or can get when needed) fuel none of this matters. You can't run your engines. With no engines running you aren't racking up hours. So you don't need maintenance parts. Since you aren't running your engines you have no loading on your alternator. So you don't need to worry about the duty cycle heating it up, or the voltage regulation, or a circuit breaker going bad. You don't need any parts on hand at all. In fact, you don't need a generator at all. It becomes an instant boat anchor, or paperweight, or hood ornament.

So what are your plans for fuel?


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I think the best plan to have for extended power outages if you're using portable generators is to have at least two on hand so you can rotate them. While you're running one of them, the other can be resting and cooling off. Plus, have some down time when neither of them are running, such as at night when everyone is sleeping anyway. That's how I plan to use mine if we get hit by a hurricane this year and we have a long-ish power outage.


----------



## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

I would love to have another EU7000is, but I'm pretty sure my wife would divorce me if I bought a second one. I understand the Honda's are favored for food trucks and stuff like that and I've read a few stories of people using these day in and day out running quite a few hours per day. Assuming we still have natural gas available during a prolonged outage, my hope would be that my unit will run reliably for months on end, with occasional (maybe daily) breaks and maintenance work. I could probably justify a cheaper inverter as a backup, but it would have to run on natural gas as well. None of the other brands are calling out to me.


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> Assuming we still have natural gas available during a prolonged outage


That is a very large assumption. How critical is having power to you? And your plan when utility supplied gas is shut off?



Browse Deweb said:


> I could probably justify a cheaper inverter as a backup, but it would have to run on natural gas as well.


You can convert any gas engine to run on natural gas.

How confident are you in working on your own equipment? If you just want to read the manual and do what the basics are and thats it then I am not sure you're entirely up to the task of keeping power on in an extended outage. If you are - then take the plunge and upgrade your engines for multi-fuel.

But the warranty...

What good is a warranty going to do you when you are in your supposed situation? Your "warranty" is your preparation on having supplies and the know-how to maintain the unit. That is the same ability it will take from you to upgrade your engines to run on all fuels.

My point - in your supposed scenario you need to rely on yourself. You can't assume you will have assistance from anyone other than yourself. Your generator manufacturer, your dealer, your service shop, or your best friend the handy-man across the street - you can't absolutely rely on them. Therefore, your assurance of having the best leg up on the task is to understand what it is going to take and be able to do it. By starting this thread you have some understanding of that already and you're learning - thats awesome. Keep learning and think outside the box. You will be thought of as a crazy worry-wart, maybe most by your wife... until you are in the scenario you are thinking about and you are the only one in your neighborhood that has their ducks in a row. Then they will all come to you looking for guidance, to hook up an extension cord to power their fridge, or to come in and stay in your air conditioned house to cool off for an hr. Are you prepared for that also?


----------



## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> That is a very large assumption. How critical is having power to you? And your plan when utility supplied gas is shut off?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep...I do all of my own maintenance already, and have converted the Honda to natural gas using the US Carb kit. I store ethanol free fuel, and have the natural gas line available. Our home heating relies on natural gas as well, but I have electric heaters as a backup source. We have backup food storage (freeze dried, cans, etc.), and a 33k pool as a backup water source (for bathing/cleaning, etc.). Thinking about getting a distilling water purification system as well. Trying to cover all the bases. Backup battery power and solar would be an awesome addition, but is cost prohibitive and we're not currently in a good solar orientation for this property.


----------



## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

Take a look at historical outages and take worst case and double? That's a point of departure anyway. Agree with everything said as to maintenance on generators. Having necessary parts, oil, etc. would be critical. Having the skills to get "dirty" is up to you. Our "civilization" (I hesitate to use that term looking at the news every day) is more and more complex and intertwined or connected. If wide scale power outage occurs will there be natural gas? Aging of the grid I find amusing, when you look at your monthly Electric bill, there will be a line item for maintenance which should be going to maintaining the facilities. Utilities spend the absolute minimum on maintenance and now we have the "aging of the grid" and they're looking for a big cash bail out from the Fed's. This came about as the State PUC/PSC is in the pocket of the utilities. Here in Ohio, if you call the PUC, they give you the "800" number of your utility and tell you to contact them. 

I guess we each have to decide what our comfort or concern level is, factor in funds available and make a best guess. I do know it's "interesting" to not have an outage for months and observe two generators in the barn as you're recycling and refilling gas. Personally I haven't got on the NG/LPG caravan due to cost of conversion and adding a 150 foot line to the existing 500 gallon LPG tank as our outages are rarely over 12 hours. 

One thing I disagree with is the idea that you have to run a generator 24 hours a day. Your frig and freezer will keep things happy if powered 12-14. PIck up some battery powered camping lanterns, camp stove, big ice chest and you'll survive. Answering the obvious, we have a vent free propane heater for outage situations. If you feel the need to run a generator 24 hours, that's an oil change every two days so a case or two of oil would be required. If you use "reasonable oil, e.g. what the Mfg. recommends, that's affordable, if you go with a premier blend that's an ouch. Personally not convinced that premier oils add that much to engine longevity. Particularly in the lower cost or "screamer," engines. 

"You pays your money and takes your chances."


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea this thread to go a record number!
lol!
a buzz word
"Y3K" all about other things making the grid go down...

having spare lp and ng valves hoses and rebuild kit for the demand regulator is a good idea!
spare parts is a great idea!

as well as a couple of lower power inverter gens for when you do not need the full power.
winter i can get by with one eu2200i gen set.

summer or super hot it is nice to have aircon to make it to where i can sleep.
but i also have a plan of a small aircon unit that can run on the eu2200i for single room cool.

long term food and clean water should be at the top of your survival list!
water should be #1!
hard to live with out it period...

as well as security....

battery tech is getting better... but is still way to expensive per kw to depend on.
and a gen set is 2-3 times per kw higher in price..

yup make a plan print it up and stick to the plan!


----------



## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

I think you're probably right about the continuous running of a gen. Shutting it down when we're sleeping would probably make sense. Freezers should hold for a full day if not opened, though refrigerators probably can't go much longer than 4-6 hours before the food gets too warm. I guess the weather would play a part. Really warm nights might make it difficult to sleep without AC, and food spoilage risks go up. We have a mini split in the basement that is very efficient, and the basement stays pretty cool, especially at night.

I don't believe we have ever lost natural gas, even during Sandy back in 2012. Some waterfront communities did lose their gas, but most of neighborhoods that were not flooded did fine. Some people were out of power for weeks.

I've been looking at this water distiller...expensive, but may be good insurance:








Mini-Classic CT Water Distiller - Plant Based Pros


Read our review of the Mini-Classic CT Water Distiller Produces consistently high-purity vapor distilled water for drinking and cooking. No installation required. Easily sits on kitchen countertop. Distilled water does not come in contact with plastic. The jar and boiling tank hold about 1...




www.plantbasedpros.com





Last year, we did run the generator non-stop for over 40 hours after a bad storm and it did fine, though we never really loaded it up and it mostly ran at the lower RPMs. It was a blessing to have. I did worry a little bit about having to run out for gasoline, which is why I have since converted it to natural gas. Hopefully, we never have to use it for weeks or months on end, but it would be reassuring to know if it can handle that kind of abuse (with proper maintenance). I read somewhere that a well maintained, high quality generator should be able to last a few thousand hours before requiring a rebuild or replacement.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

you can make ice in the freezer for the fridge.
use gallon milk jugs.
think ice box!
and use a catch pan for moisture under the jug in the fridge.

also a full fridge or freezer holds temp better
so use the ice jugs to keep the temps even in the freezer.

and if winter time a car or truck makes a dandy fridge or freezer if inside a garage out of the sun!
we did this during a BIG ice storm.
made ice jugs outside, and used them in the fridge and coolers.

oh yea they make those dandy yeti coolers these days!
pricey, but they will keep mice out of food!


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Browse Deweb said:


> I've been looking at this water distiller...expensive, but may be good insurance:


Water is the least of my concerns. I've been backpacking for about 15 years or so and have been filtering water the whole time. The early trips we had a pump that one of our group members brought. Combined with purification tablets I never had any issues. Somewhere along the lines I picked up one of these filters:





Katadyn BeFree Gravity 10L


<p>The Katadyn BeFree Gravity 10L offers the maximum ease of filtering water for a group: Just fill and hang - clean drinking water will be available without pumping.</p>



www.katadyngroup.com





I have since been using it - with the optional carbon filter on the hose - for all my portable water needs and it is a blessing. I can produce so much potable water with it I can't use it all in camp. 

In a situation where we lost utility water here we're not hurting one bit on getting water.


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> a buzz word
> "Y3K" all about other things making the grid go down...


Democrats -> "The Russians did it". 
"The Iranians did it". 
"Trump farted and... "

Environmentalists -> "Global Warming" [ahem, ""Climate Change""] "caused the deep freeze that shut down alternative energy and that drop in the grid caused the rest of the grid to overload".

Right... 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter "who", "how", or "why". The result is the same and your reliance on getting what you need is up to you if/when things go down.


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

exmar said:


> One thing I disagree with is the idea that you have to run a generator 24 hours a day. Your frig and freezer will keep things happy if powered 12-14.


Good point. I run a room AC in addition to central as the ducting doesn't work adequately for some areas (cold in some parts, 85deg in others). If you don't keep up with the cooling here you'll never get ahead of it. If you keep up with it - through about midnight to 10am you can get a break in the power load. If you shut off AC before then the residual heating from the day (crawl spaces, attic against exterior walls/ceilings) is too stiff and still heats things right back up. Any later than 10am and the heating cycle the next day gets too strong. If it stays hot all night then thats another ballgame and cycling would have to be adjusted per the conditions. 

In any event, cycling generator usage for those off-periods would work. I am not sure totally turning off power here would be ideal, but it is possible. Certainly switching from running the big generator dropping down to the inverter, for example, would be realistic. That would shave about 10 hours of fuel usage on the big one.


----------



## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

Mid February we lost power for 13 days during historic winter storm Uri here in the Texas Hill Country. We were fine running a generator for a total of about 8 hours a day to keep our fridge and freezer foods from spoiling. We had almost a full 500 gallon propane tank to run our little propane fireplace and stove/oven. If this outage would have been in the middle of summer, 8 hours would have turned into 16 hours or more. 

Friends with only a fireplace for heat suffered, some couldn't maintain a room temperature above 45-55F and/or ran out of firewood. Those with no emergency preparations really suffered, one older couple stayed in their vehicle for three days until it ran out of fuel.

After this adventure I was finished with portable generators as the sole source of emergency power. I'm in the middle of installing a 13 Kw diesel 1800 rpm generator - about 1/3rd gallon an hour fuel burn.

My backup to my backup power is six various Honda generators, yes, I love Honda inverters.


----------



## JohnWhicker (Feb 21, 2021)

JJ Ranch said:


> Mid February we lost power for 13 days during historic winter storm Uri here in the Texas Hill Country. We were fine running a generator for a total of about 8 hours a day to keep our fridge and freezer foods from spoiling. We had almost a full 500 gallon propane tank to run our little propane fireplace and stove/oven. If this outage would have been in the middle of summer, 8 hours would have turned into 16 hours or more.
> 
> Friends with only a fireplace for heat suffered, some couldn't maintain a room temperature above 45-55F and/or ran out of firewood. Those with no emergency preparations really suffered, one older couple stayed in their vehicle for three days until it ran out of fuel.
> 
> ...


Hey partner who is doing the install for you? Companies here in Houston are charging 7-10K for a 24Kw standby generator install which I find it grosly overpriced if you ask me


----------



## Ground Fault (Jun 9, 2020)

[QUOTE*Realistic generator expectations for prolonged grid down scenario*][/QUOTE]

Crank it up and run it. Don't look back. You obviously have your snarf in one sock as far as preventative maintenance during whatever period you will need it. We ran a twenty year old+ Coleman 4000 wide open for fourteen days in 2005 and thirteen days in 2008. A generator that had countless hours on it already, tallied 1-3 days at a time since 1985. We ran it FULL TIME, hammered down on it, no breaks except for fill-ups, oil changes and filters. This, in 100-degree days in 2005, 95 degree days in 2008. Frig, freezer, lights, 12000Btu window A/C full time all. We HAMMERED on it. It's still out there in the shop, freshened up, waiting, my second back-up. We DID supplemental decarbonization sprayed through the carb with Yamaha Ring-Free, then Marvel Mystery Oil just before each oil change. I would stake my life on Ring-Free. I will take it over Sea Foam any day.

If you have trepidation and lose sleep at night over this extended scenario thing, buy a cheap backup generator, preferably a backup TO A HONDA, and get on with life. *You got this*.


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

JJ Ranch said:


> After this adventure I was finished with portable generators as the sole source of emergency power. I'm in the middle of installing a 13 Kw diesel 1800 rpm generator - about 1/3rd gallon an hour fuel burn.


What are the details on the generator if you don't mind me asking? Make/model? New or used? At 1/3 gal/hr that is sipping fuel compared to the 15kw screamer I have at around 1.5 gal/hr. If your numbers are correct that would use 1/5th of the fuel, or 5 times the run time on a given quantity of fuel (albeit diesel and not gasoline - diesel is safer to have around also, and you can get off-road diesel [red diesel] cheaper than road fuel).


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

one thing to keep in mind you can lock on the fan blower to on all of the time for the larger hvac system
and then run a smaller room ac or window ac unit to help cool things down...
it helps a bit!
also LARGE de humidifiers help!
get rid of the water in the air you can stand higher temps!

and insulate the heck out of the house like for mn that is r52 or higher.
and do the walls as heavy as you can get in there.
or new construction do closed cell foam. 
that stuff is good for just under the roof sheeting insulation!
spray that on the inside of the attic.
just make sure to have all of the electrical in conduit!
and have easy pull locations on the electrical for future repairs.

I am glad i did r52 here!
it shaved off 125.00 per month in cooling cost!
still working on the walls...
side tracked with water system update.


----------



## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

JohnWhicker said:


> Hey partner who is doing the install for you? Companies here in Houston are charging 7-10K for a 24Kw standby generator install which I find it grosly overpriced if you ask me


The generator is assembled/tested/sold/supported by Aurora Generators in Ontario, Canada. The engine is an industrial 3 cylinder 1.5L Perkins, alternator is Mecc Alte, gen controller is a TG410 by DynaGen. The enclosure sits on a double wall 100 gallon diesel base tank.

As far as the installation, I'm basically the contractor. I had a 5x8' slab poured and an electrician is going to work with me for final wiring. I had the project 99% planned out, the electrician contributed the very important 1% with his expertise.

I've been rounding up wire, conduit, boxes, fittings, pipe and strut to mount the transfer switch and new load center. Copper and even conduit/fittings has gone through the roof. Yesterday I bought two 2" by 10' long galvanized pipe for about $210. These pipes will be in a 20" deep hole (with cement) and have struts crossways for mounting the boxes, clamps, etc. At this point I have about $1500 _just in electrical stuff not counting the slab and the generator itself._

Aurora Generators produces a very high-end product and the generator price reflects that quality. I've got $17k in the generator/base tank including truck freight. As a geek I can say their attention to detail is very impressive. Check out their videos on YouTube.

Here's a few pix: (The Bobcat E42 excavator is mine and not a rental)


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> also LARGE de humidifiers help!
> get rid of the water in the air you can stand higher temps!


I've been looking around for one for a while now. The summers we have here are brutally humid. Just to be able to remove some of the water from the air helps. The problem I'm running into is that all of the consumer grade dehumidifiers all get very mixed reviews. There is no one brand that seems to make a unit that lasts more than a year or two. They all seem to have major issues with reliability. The commercial units seem to be better, but they are a lot more money. And they are not immune to poor reliability, either. Apparently, there was some massive recall a few years ago of all of the major brands because they were smoking and catching on fire. Are there any consumer level units that are not complete junk?


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

JJ Ranch said:


> The generator is assembled/tested/sold/supported by Aurora Generators in Ontario, Canada. The engine is an industrial 3 cylinder 1.5L Perkins, alternator is Mecc Alte, gen controller is a TG410 by DynaGen. The enclosure sits on a double wall 100 gallon diesel base tank.





JJ Ranch said:


> Here's a few pix:


John - thanks for the pictures. That is an awesome set up. 

You say that is only a 13kw unit? Is that the running wattage or peak/starting wattage? I am curious why if you went to that class of unit why only 13kw? With the fuel consumption you stated earlier (1/3 gal/hr) - if that is indeed correct - it would seem a larger unit wouldn't be too far out of the realm of reason to have some extra overhead on the power. Just thinking here - I would imagine at 13.5kw running if we have central air on and are trying to keep things mostly "normal" we should still be careful with when loads run - like microwaves on top of everything else. The larger the unit the more head room there is and the lower duty cycle you have on the unit in what ever your "normal" conditions are. With as detailed as you seem to be I imagine your numbers were taking all of that in to account - its just on the surface looking at the 13kw number, not knowing your math, that looks strangely low vs the efforts you're making.


----------



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> JJ Ranch said:
> 
> 
> > After this adventure I was finished with portable generators as the sole source of emergency power. I'm in the middle of installing a 13 Kw diesel 1800 rpm generator - about 1/3rd gallon an hour fuel burn.
> ...


Looks like at low wattage (under ~4.5kw) you are in that range. Thats awesome. Fuel consumption ramps up after about 5kw so for the heavier loads you're up around a gal/hr. That sounds more realistic - but it is still a lot more fuel efficient than a "screamer" there. You really make up for the fuel efficiency on the low end - that would be quite nice.


----------



## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

A diesel generator needs to run under load and not just idle along or it will "wet stack". Even my Deere tractor manual says do not let the engine idle for long periods of time. So the design objective was to size a generator to run most of the time at about a 50-75% load. We have two mini-split heat pumps (one of them is two zone) and a 3 ton conventional HVAC unit but propane is used for everything else in the house (about 3,000 sq ft.) Larger all electric houses that need to run two or three conventional HVACs would do better with the 22 Kw diesel unit.

If I was going with an 1800 rpm gaseous generator, I would probably size it at 20 or 25 Kw.

Also the generator is rated at (I think) 12.5 Kw continuous duty so it's a robust alternator and engine marriage. Oil change interval is 500 hours.

As far as GPH fuel burn, after looking at the charts I was expecting about 1 GPH, when I chatted with an Aurora tech he said no way, more like 1/3 GPH. Ron Katz, Aurora owner says I should expect more like 1/2 GPH. So we'll see. For the first two or three months, I'm going to run the generator under house load for four or five hours every week to get some time on the clock and give me a feel-good about its reliability.


----------



## Ground Fault (Jun 9, 2020)

Yeah that is a NICE setup right there. NICE! Checks all of my boxes, that's for sure.


----------



## exmar (Jun 29, 2015)

No one is going to mention Swamp Coolers? Never used one but they have some very strong advocates. Since we're a little off topic.


----------



## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

Swamp coolers are OK for desert climates I suppose, but you could get arrested for installing one in a house in Louisiana


----------



## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

JJ Ranch said:


> A diesel generator needs to run under load and not just idle along or it will "wet stack". Even my Deere tractor manual says do not let the engine idle for long periods of time. So the design objective was to size a generator to run most of the time at about a 50-75% load. We have two mini-split heat pumps (one of them is two zone) and a 3 ton conventional HVAC unit but propane is used for everything else in the house (about 3,000 sq ft.) Larger all electric houses that need to run two or three conventional HVACs would do better with the 22 Kw diesel unit.
> 
> If I was going with an 1800 rpm gaseous generator, I would probably size it at 20 or 25 Kw.
> 
> ...


It looks like you would be using about a third of the capacity to achieve a fuel burn of 0.5 gallon per hour. That may be close to wet-stacking territory, especially in cold weather?

I've got wet-stacking problems with my little Yanmar diesel, since my normal "emergency" load is about a 25% of capacity level. I believe my rings are somewhat gummed up because it won't produce full power now, but it's still running reliably at my emergency load requirement, so I'm OK with that. When I need more capacity, I fire up my backup generator; but that is rare.


----------



## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> I've been looking around for one for a while now. The summers we have here are brutally humid. Just to be able to remove some of the water from the air helps. The problem I'm running into is that all of the consumer grade dehumidifiers all get very mixed reviews. There is no one brand that seems to make a unit that lasts more than a year or two. They all seem to have major issues with reliability. The commercial units seem to be better, but they are a lot more money. And they are not immune to poor reliability, either. Apparently, there was some massive recall a few years ago of all of the major brands because they were smoking and catching on fire. Are there any consumer level units that are not complete junk?


I've had bad luck with $150-$200-class dehumidifiers commonly available in various brands. I've given up buying them after I've had to junk several with two or three years of service. It's amazing that window air conditions seem to last forever, but these dehumidifiers seem not.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Airstreamer67 said:


> I've had bad luck with $150-$200-class dehumidifiers commonly available in various brands. I've given up buying them after I've had to junk several with two or three years of service. It's amazing that window air conditions seem to last forever, but these dehumidifiers seem not.


Your experience with them seems disturbingly common. You'd think of all of the brands and designs out there that there'd be at least a few of them that were well designed and made so they would last more than a couple of years. The ones that you had didn't have warranties? It seems that if you get one, you really need to pay attention to how the manufacturer reacts to units that go out well before they should. I've heard Frigidaire has a pretty good warranty and they replace units that go bad. Haier seems to get good reviews, but I don't know if they have a good warranty. 

Lol about swamp coolers. They are good for areas with low humidity. They add a massive amount of humidity to the air, so the would not be a good idea for areas like south Louisiana and Florida.


----------



## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

One of my dehumidifiers was a Frigidaire. It may have been a longer-lasting unit, I don't remember. But they all went kaput too soon; ie, within several years. Of course, it was always after the warranty period, whatever that was: one year maybe?

I just quit using dehumidifiers because of that. I still can't understand why they can't make them to be as long-lasting as an air conditioner. It seems the mechanical functions are similar. Maybe I've just had bad luck. :-/


----------



## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

Airstreamer67 said:


> It looks like you would be using about a third of the capacity to achieve a fuel burn of 0.5 gallon per hour. That may be close to wet-stacking territory, especially in cold weather?
> 
> I've got wet-stacking problems with my little Yanmar diesel, since my normal "emergency" load is about a 25% of capacity level. I believe my rings are somewhat gummed up because it won't produce full power now, but it's still running reliably at my emergency load requirement, so I'm OK with that. When I need more capacity, I fire up my backup generator; but that is rare.


Good question about wet stacking, diesel generator is new territory for me. I've had diesel equipment for 30 years and never had an engine problem but that's way different duty cycle. My boom lift has a three cylinder Duetz diesel that spends much of its time idling, it had about 1700 hours when I bought it and now I've added another 100 hours. Engine runs fine so far.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

JJ Ranch said:


> Good question about wet stacking, diesel generator is new territory for me. I've had diesel equipment for 30 years and never had an engine problem but that's way different duty cycle. My boom lift has a three cylinder Duetz diesel that spends much of its time idling, it had about 1700 hours when I bought it and now I've added another 100 hours. Engine runs fine so far.


wet stacking, diesel generator is another whole another thread!
lol
yea the little duetz is a good engine!
we have those on the jlg units.
the head gaskets need replaced at every 3k hours...
other than that just keep the fuel clean!
and add a clear water separator so you can watch for the diesel bug.

we use the ps fuel treatment in all of the diesel units here.
and is a must below 40 deg f.


----------



## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

Airstreamer67 said:


> One of my dehumidifiers was a Frigidaire. It may have been a longer-lasting unit, I don't remember. But they all went kaput too soon; ie, within several years. Of course, it was always after the warranty period, whatever that was: one year maybe?
> 
> I just quit using dehumidifiers because of that. I still can't understand why they can't make them to be as long-lasting as an air conditioner. It seems the mechanical functions are similar. Maybe I've just had bad luck. :-/


I have an old White-Westinghouse model MDH30WW1 dehumidifier that we have had for decades. This thing just never stops working. I wish they made stuff like they used to...for longevity.


----------



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Browse Deweb said:


> I have an old White-Westinghouse model MDH30WW1 dehumidifier that we have had for decades. This thing just never stops working. I wish they made stuff like they used to...for longevity.


Dehumidifiers are not complicated appliances. The tech has been around for generations. It's absolutely beyond bizarre that literally no one seems able to design and build one today that works well and lasts. Cutting corners and making them cheaper is one thing, but eventually you run up against the law of diminishing returns.


----------



## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

iowagold said:


> wet stacking, diesel generator is another whole another thread!
> lol
> yea the little duetz is a good engine!
> we have those on the jlg units.
> ...


There's two variations of the oil cooled Duetz, one needs the timing belt replaced after 2k hours and one I think is 3 or 4k hours. Fortunately I have the one with a longer timing belt life. Search for Duetz timing belt - lots of interesting info.

Oh, forgot to mention diesel fuel treatment. I use Biobor JF biocide and Pri-D treatment. My diesel is very stable and clean.



LaSwamp said:


> Dehumidifiers are not complicated appliances. The tech has been around for generations. It's absolutely beyond bizarre that literally no one seems able to design and build one today that works well and lasts. Cutting corners and making them cheaper is one thing, but eventually you run up against the law of diminishing returns.


Unfortunately ALL consumer dehumidifiers are now made in China, they are built to a specific price point - translation: they are junk.


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

pm me for the construction dehumidifiers.
they are built for long run times!
1000-2000 usd in cost... but they have onboard pumps for water.
and draw 10 amps to 20 amps depending on the model.
they are good!

yea..
they over look the air filter clean on the low cost home versions...
so they cork up with trash and over heat...
they now have thermal fuses on them...
big cost to have a shop replace those thermal fuses as they are deep inside the case and chassis...

just buy a room air con unit...
the better units have a dehumidify setting.
and all you need is a 4 inch to a 6 inch dryer style vent out side for the moisture and heat.
i think the better branded units are in the 500-800 usd range at most home box stores. 
or pm me if you need ship to home links.


----------



## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

Yeah, those commercial-grade dehumidifiers are 10 times more expensive than the throw-away units I've bought through the years and thrown away, but they are probably what I need to keep my un-air-conditioned spaces continuously dry. 

Oh well, it looks like Mother Nature doesn't want me to mess with her humidity unless I'm going to do something about the heat too. Only, it costs so much to keep it dry. :-/


----------



## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

just up grade to the new portable ac units..
most of those are 400-1000 usd depending on the btu.

for me i like to breath air!!
lol!
darn water in the air cuts down on the o2...
so i run both in the mbr ac and dehumidifier..
and use the time of day on the grid power so most of the time i just run the units on off peak times to save a few bucks.

if i can knock down to 60% humidity or less i am good..
any thing over 80% and i get in trouble fast if i am working hard...

stay safe down there!


----------



## ajnuzzi (12 mo ago)

My friends all think I'm crazy but glad to see I'm not alone. I have two generators for this exact scenario. I would run by wgen12000df during the day and my wgen9500df at night. Both are converted to natural gas. I have an extra garrettson regulator and two 50 amp cords. I mainly kept two not for the long outage scenario but mainly for the off chance that we lose power and for one reason or another my main gen doesn't start. I would be so mad if I spent all this time, money, and energy into a back up plan to have my generator fail me. To be fair that's never happened to me, I'm religious about exercising the generators and maintenance but I'd rather be too prepared than the alternative.


----------

