# Should I convert my new generator to a floating neutral?



## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

I just ordered a B&S Q6500. I also just found out that it has a bonded neutral. I'm a bit shocked at this because it's marketed as a standby generator to connect to the house for 240 service.

The Q6500 doesn't have any GFCI on it itself (At least that's what I think based on what I've found online.... The genny hasn't been delivered yet), but I'm wondering if it might trip the GFCI in my home. Anyone know if that will happen? Should I take it apart and convert it to a floating neutral to be safe?

Doesn't the NEC code say that the generator should NOT have a bonded neutral when connected to the service panel?. Hmmm, maybe I'm wrong.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Now a days its odd to see a large 240v generator that isn't universally GFCI protected to be neutral bonded.

If you are connecting the generator to your homes electrical system through an interlock or transfer switch then YES, FLOATING NEUTRAL.

If you plan to plug lights and appliances into the generator through standard electrical cords, NEUTRAL BONDED. A ground rod is recommended.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> Now a days its odd to see a large 240v generator that isn't universally GFCI protected to be neutral bonded.
> 
> If you are connecting the generator to your homes electrical system through an interlock or transfer switch then YES, FLOATING NEUTRAL.
> 
> If you plan to plug lights and appliances into the generator through standard electrical cords, NEUTRAL BONDED. A ground rod is recommended.


Ha... You made me look at a different source from where I originally got the info that it didn't have GFCI. Well I downloaded the manual and it does have GFCI. Now it makes sense why it has a bonded neutral.

Now what should I do? Should I still make it floating neutral, or should I leave it? What are the pros and cons of either option?

Thank you!


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

Based on this wiring diagram, it looks like if someone were to remove this one connection, the generator would then have a floating neutral. I highlighted it in yellow. Can anyone confirm?

Thanks!



https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/74/74a84b1b-5c6b-4da1-8e47-2364426b8111.pdf


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea that would get rid of the bonded.
question, what city and state are you in?
that makes a difference on the "code wiring"
nec is usa wide.. but there also local codes too..
and if you modify any generator it voids warranty...
and liability by the mfg...
I would look at the honda eu 7000is.. it is fuel injected for gasoline.
a lot more bucks..
but it is best in class on fuel and power.
oh yea how do you plan to fuel your generator?? gasoline or convert to tri fuel??


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

iowagold said:


> yea that would get rid of the bonded.
> question, what city and state are you in?
> that makes a difference on the "code wiring"
> nec is usa wide.. but there also local codes too..
> ...


Thanks iowagold!

Based on my experience with the Honda EU2000, I can only assume that the EU7000 would be just as good, probably better since it's got FI. As much as I would love a Honda EU7000, it's just not in the budget. I wish I could get the 2000 back from my dad, but he won't give it back. Years ago, I lent it to him after a storm. Since then, he lets me, the actual owner, barrow it at times. LOL.. I figure I'll let him keep the 2000 since he's familiar with it. 

I'm in Baltimore, MD. I spoke with a friend of mine who's an electrician and he's telling me I need a generator with a floating neutral, since it'll get tied into the bonded neutral of my home. I'm still unsure if I should disconnect the bond on the Q6500. B&S isn't much help as to what might happen if I disconnect it. They only thing they will tell me, just like you did, is that removing the bond would void the warranty. If I knew it wouldn't cause premature failure of the generator, I'd disconnect, but I don't know. 

I will eventually find out, but I'd like to know If I leave it connected, will everything in house function fine? I don't plan on using any of the other outlets when it's connected to the house. So GCFI breakers tripped on the generator doesn't mean anything to me. My worry is when it's connected to the house, how will the homes electrical system run? Will it cause the homes GCFI to trip or possible cause odd voltages in different circuits...

Depending on how it acts, with and without a bonded neutral, I might eventually put in a switch to bond or float the neutral.. That way, when it's connected to a home, I fould float the neutral with a flip of a switch. Wish B&S would have built it that way to start.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

Just thought of something else.. Can I isolate just the 30amp L14-30R to make only it floating? I'd don't think I would every use that outlet, expect to connect it to my home.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

crabjoe said:


> Just thought of something else.. Can I isolate just the 30amp L14-30R to make only it floating? I'd don't think I would every use that outlet, expect to connect it to my home.


The Black neutral wire comes out of the AVR directly to the L14-30R, and then back to both of the 20A outlets, and then to the ground lug as previously shown. Without inserting some kind of isolation between the L14-30R and the other outlets, when you float one, you do them all.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

crabjoe said:


> Thanks iowagold!
> 
> Based on my experience with the Honda EU2000, I can only assume that the EU7000 would be just as good, probably better since it's got FI. As much as I would love a Honda EU7000, it's just not in the budget. I wish I could get the 2000 back from my dad, but he won't give it back. Years ago, I lent it to him after a storm. Since then, he lets me, the actual owner, barrow it at times. LOL.. I figure I'll let him keep the 2000 since he's familiar with it.
> 
> ...


it will work ok if the gen is bonded with the house.
but it would be best if the gen was converted to floating like your electrician said.
as long as the house ground stakes are good and the bonding in the box from the neutral to the green ground
it right..
your electrician could check the grounds with proper meters... 
if your ground stakes have not been updated in the last 20 years it might be a good idea to have them checked and updated.
wires and connections corrode etc over time.. as well as the copper clad on the ground stakes go bad over time too.
it all depends on your soil. some areas of the country a set of ground stakes will last 50 years...
other areas 2 years if the soil is salty or acid...
and it is a good idea to check the connections in the breaker panel every year or two.

on the inverter gens they bond the gens so the chassis and the natural are the same reference or zero points...
here is why.
on the small honda eu series the neutral and the line are made to flip to match the second generator..
so the master gen sets the cadence as well as the neutral and line.

the larger gens they can L1 or L2 flip with Neutral inside the inverter to match the second gen set. 
so that is why they bond the generators inside.
it stops the flip.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

oh yea I wish they make the eu2200i was fuel injected!! I would pay more for that!!.
as they are they do well with fuel!
as well as I would love to see all the small generators with an spin oil filter and an oil pump!
they would last longer!!
but for now make sure you run magnetic drain plugs if you have a drain plug as well as magnetic dip sticks.
they make the generators last longer by removing the magnetic carbon trash in the oil.
the ball bearings are open.. so the trash can get in there on the splash oil systems.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

iowagold said:


> the larger gens they can L1 or L2 flip with Neutral inside the inverter to match the second gen set.
> so that is why they bond the generators inside.
> it stops the flip.


I'm reading this and I'm thinking the bonded neutral is what keeps L1 and L2 at 180 degs. If that's true with 240v inverted generators, I'm going to have to leave the bond in place.
The only reason for the Q6500, for me, is to be able to run my well pump. If I can't run my well pump, any small generator is fine for short outages I get.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

that is a thought...
so the well pump is for fresh water?
if so you could always do a larger bladder tank for more gallons of water under pressure..
then run the generator only when refilling the system...
that could be setup with an auto start and demand system..

then you could run a smaller gen for the rest of the house..
2 box system..


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

iowagold said:


> that is a thought...
> so the well pump is for fresh water?
> if so you could always do a larger bladder tank for more gallons of water under pressure..
> then run the generator only when refilling the system...
> ...


Well I guess I'm going to have to leave it bonded so I can run the well pump. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hope it's fine with the bond.. I'll know in about another 2 weeks, when the generator gets here.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

My question, whats your connectivity plan. Are you going to use a 30amp inlet to feed the house? Interlock? Transfer switch? OR Basic extension cords?

The neutral does NOT need to be bonded for proper operation. If you are connecting to a transfer switch or interlock I personally would Float neutral.

You can make your own external bonding plug. Take a replacement nema 5-15 plug and wire the ground and neutral together to make an on the fly neutral bond. You just plug it into one of the standard 20amp outlets.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

read back dr..


drmerdp said:


> My question, whats your connectivity plan. Are you going to use a 30amp inlet to feed the house? Interlock? Transfer switch? OR Basic extension cords?
> 
> The neutral does NOT need to be bonded for proper operation. If you are connecting to a transfer switch or interlock I personally would Float neutral.
> 
> You can make your own external bonding plug. Take a replacement nema 5-15 plug and wire the ground and neutral together to make an on the fly neutral bond. You just plug it into one of the standard 20amp outlets.


 read back dr
the gen is bonded from the factory.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> My question, whats your connectivity plan. Are you going to use a 30amp inlet to feed the house? Interlock? Transfer switch? OR Basic extension cords?
> 
> The neutral does NOT need to be bonded for proper operation. If you are connecting to a transfer switch or interlock I personally would Float neutral.
> 
> You can make your own external bonding plug. Take a replacement nema 5-15 plug and wire the ground and neutral together to make an on the fly neutral bond. You just plug it into one of the standard 20amp outlets.


The house already has a interlock wired for 50amps with the Reliance pb50. It works great with my Generac GP15000e. Problem is, hooking up the Generac is too much for short outages. The thing weighs over 400lbs and I think my cord is 75ft long. I know it's at least 50ft, can't remember.. Because of this, and the amount if noise, it's only used for prolonged outages where AC or heat is needed.

The other day I had a power outage and ran out of water because I was using a 2000w gen with extension cords. Because of this, I ordered the Q6500, so I can run the well pump. The plan is to use the existing 50amp power inlet, which is connected with an interlock.

The problem came up because I found that the Q6500 has a bonded neutral. I knew nothing about floating or bonded neutrals before, so I'm clueless.. All I heard was that since the house already had the neutral to ground bond, if the generator feeding the house had it too, it would cause GFCIs to trip. Then I thought, I;ll just float the neutral on the generator like my other generators. Come to find out, if I do this, it not only voids my warranty, but I may NOT be able to use the 120/240 service as intended, because L1 and L2 from the generator might not be at 180 deg from each other... hence not providing the 240v I would need. 

For now, it looks like I'm going to have to just see what happens when I connect up the new generator. If I have problems with the GFCIs, I might have to live with it.. If not, great. I just don't know.. 

I wish I could get a clear answer as how the Briggs Q6500 would act if I converted it to a floating neutral. If it acted like my other generators but with the 120/240 worked properly, I'd say screw the warranty and just unbond it... I'd still run it in it's factory state, at least through it's break in period to make sure everything was functioning properly before any mods.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

Folks,

I just thought of something..

Why can't I just use a cable that only feed the 2 hots and neutral to the house? That way the generator doesn't need to be converted to a floating neutral setup.

Maybe I should connect the 2 hots and ground, leaving the neutral out?

Isn't this basically how a GFI transfer switch works?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

crabjoe said:


> Why can't I just use a cable that only feed the 2 hots and neutral to the house? That way the generator doesn't need to be converted to a floating neutral setup.
> 
> Maybe I should connect the 2 hots and ground, leaving the neutral out?


You're WAY overthinking this... If you're connecting the generator to the service panel, float the neutral. Done and done. Do what @drmerdp suggested re: the on demand bonding.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

50-75 foot cord??
WOW!!
at what size of wire? was this the gen cord??
we try to keep the gen cord under 15 feet..
then you have the larger hard wire from the local to the gen inlet.
long skinny wires make for power loss.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

tabora said:


> You're WAY overthinking this... If you're connecting the generator to the service panel, float the neutral. Done and done. Do what @drmerdp suggested re: the on demand bonding.


I am partially because iowagold said if I remove the bond, the 120/240 service might go out of phase. If I knew the 120s on it would stay 180 degs apart with a floating neutral, it would be a no brainer to just float the neutral and either use a bonding plug or install a switch.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

iowagold said:


> 50-75 foot cord??
> WOW!!
> at what size of wire? was this the gen cord??
> we try to keep the gen cord under 15 feet..
> ...


The cord was built years ago.. If I remember correctly, 6/4 was used because of the distance. Yup, when I got that Generac, I thought it would be easy to just move it near the power inlet. Doing so 1 time was enough for me to get the longer cord. Now I pull it out of my garage, into the drive way and run that cord. I swear that cord might be more than an inch thick, and it's heavy.. but still easier than trying to move the generator. From the power inlet to the service is only about 5 feet of wire.

Ideally, it would have been better to have the power inlet on the garage side (side entry), but it wasn't feasible to pull the wiring... Plus it made sense from a noise standpoint to have the generator on the side of the house where no one every sits in.. Well, that failed because I can't really move the generator over there..


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

I highly doubt that you'll have a phase problem by removing the bond.

Lots of generators come floating neutral especially if they have GFCI built in. Hondas EB series generators have one large GFCI that protects every outlet. If you connect the generator to the houses 30amp twistlock the GFCI pops instantly. Sooo, Honda released a service bulletin specifically on how to remove the neutral bond for this purpose.

Maybe for good measure you should use a multimeter to probe the 30 amp twist lock connectors ground and neutral terminals and check if you have continuity. (bonded)

If in fact it is, remove the bond... If not, kudos to briggs for engineering common sense.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

crabjoe said:


> I am partially because iowagold said if I remove the bond, the 120/240 service might go out of phase. If I knew the 120s on it would stay 180 degs apart with a floating neutral, it would be a no brainer to just float the neutral and either use a bonding plug or install a switch.


He did not say that. He was talking about syncing the phases on paralleled generators. He in fact said to float the neutral, buried in there somewhere.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Checked my EU7000 to confirm. Its likely the same for the Q6500. Atleast I’d hope so. 

5-20 and 5-30 outlets are bonded and GFCI protected. 

14-30 outlet is not bonded.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

drmerdp said:


> Checked my EU7000 to confirm. Its likely the same for the Q6500. Atleast I’d hope so.
> 
> 5-20 and 5-30 outlets are bonded and GFCI protected.
> 
> 14-30 outlet is not bonded.


The wiring diagram shown in post 4 for the Q6500 shows that the neutral for all three outlets are bonded to the ground in a daisy chain.


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## Marlin (May 25, 2015)

crabjoe said:


> The house already has a interlock wired for 50amps with the Reliance pb50. It works great with my Generac GP15000e. Problem is, hooking up the Generac is too much for short outages. The thing weighs over 400lbs and I think my cord is 75ft long. I know it's at least 50ft, can't remember.. Because of this, and the amount if noise, it's only used for prolonged outages where AC or heat is needed.
> 
> The other day I had a power outage and ran out of water because I was using a 2000w gen with extension cords. Because of this, I ordered the Q6500, so I can run the well pump. The plan is to use the existing 50amp power inlet, which is connected with an interlock.
> 
> ...




Instead of stressing over removing the bonding in the generator, why not simply use a two conductor extension cord from the generator?
That would effectively remove the bonding without modifying the generator.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Yeah... I was to busy to really study the diagram earlier. Theres something funny about that diagram, besides its resolution and lack of labeling. Looks like there alot of grounds off the twistlock. I wouldnt be surprised if with actual eyes on the control panel there is a easy way to keep the 5-20s bonded but not the 14-30.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

tabora said:


> He did not say that. He was talking about syncing the phases on paralleled generators. He in fact said to float the neutral, buried in there somewhere.


DId I completely misunderstand this conversation? If so.. Dang.. Sorry iowagold.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> Yeah... I was to busy to really study the diagram earlier. Theres something funny about that diagram, besides its resolution and lack of labeling. Looks like there alot of grounds off the twistlock. I wouldnt be surprised if with actual eyes on the control panel there is a easy way to keep the 5-20s bonded but not the 14-30.


I got the diagram from here.. It's a PDF file, so you can zoom in..
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/74/74a84b1b-5c6b-4da1-8e47-2364426b8111.pdf 

Based on what I see, every this looks like it's in series, all daisy chained together.. All the neutrals from on to another and all the grounds.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

I’m mistaken. The highlighted wire from earlier is where ground is tied into neutral. Disconnect from the neutral terminal and tape up or attach to the duplex’s ground to keep the wire tucked away safely. Done.


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## crabjoe (Apr 20, 2020)

I know why the diagram is not labeled and everything is so confusing with this generator.. it's Briggs themselves.. 

I had asked if about the bonding and tripping of the GFCI and look at their answer..

"









Even they can't make up their mind as to if it's a bonded or floating neutral.. Clearly they state in the beginning that it's setup as a floating neutral, but by the time you get to the end, they say it has two neutral ground bonds..


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

crabjoe said:


> Clearly they state in the beginning that it's setup as a floating neutral, but by the time you get to the end, they say it has two neutral ground bonds...


My reading of their statement was that they were discussing a hypothetical multiple neutral/ground bond situation. Per the wiring diagram, there is only one, which is easily addressed as previously discussed. However, it may turn out that the wiring diagram is incorrect; we've certainly seen that before over the years...


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

all we have to do is shake our heads and say "engineers or foreign drafting department"
so much is lost in translation when they do the manuals..

yea a simple 3 wire red, white, black soow cord with the green on the gen side plug as no connection,
and just use a 3 wire inlet on the house.
same L1, L2 and white neutral.. 
it will pick up the ground from the neutral bond in the house.


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## JohnNY (Apr 27, 2020)

So as I read and learn about floating vs bonded neutrals, correct me if I'm wrong. 
If hooking it up to your home using a interlock you need to FLOAT the neutral.
But then I read if the gen has NO GFCI protection on it protecting the gens 120/240 outlet you can use a bonded gen to the home without issue and can remain bonded on the generator.
Also as this article says Bonded Neutral vs Floating Neutral Generators - How to Avoid Tripping a Generator With a Bonded Neutral 
That if you remove the bonding that now both legs are considered "HOT" and during a short circuit effectually electrify the frame of the gen and cause a shock if touched. (Again correct me if I'm wrong).
Now they sell generators with FLOATING neutrals and they can be safely and easily used with an interlock without issue according to what is stated. But dont they now create the above situation and possibility of shock to a user if they are using them out in the field to run something plugged directly into its outlets? 
Also why cant the neutral just be manually switched on the panel and then used safely for both situations. I know people are gonna say because of safety, but the worst they would be is it was left open/unbonded (which leads us back to the shock issue lol)




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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

JohnNY said:


> So as I read and learn about floating vs bonded neutrals, correct me if I'm wrong.
> If hooking it up to your home using a interlock you need to FLOAT the neutral.
> But then I read if the gen has NO GFCI protection on it protecting the gens 120/240 outlet you can use a bonded gen to the home without issue and can remain bonded on the generator.
> Also as this article says Bonded Neutral vs Floating Neutral Generators - How to Avoid Tripping a Generator With a Bonded Neutral
> ...


For the same reason that subpanels MAY NOT have ground and neutral bonded neither shall generators feeding a home through a service panel. 

Electricity does not take the Shortest path to ground. It take ALL paths to ground. Neutral is designed as a return path for electricity for completing a circuit, Ground is for safety. Neutral in the main panel is already bonded with ground. The main panel is also grounded throughly through rods. Adding a bonded generator makes a circuit for stay currents to loop through. That could mean getting shocked, or under most conditions, an induction loops that creates heat and can damage wiring terminations leading to poor connections, shorts, and fires.

A toggle switch to bond or unbond is fine, but most simply take a replacement 5-15 plug and wire a jumper from neutral to ground and plug it into one of the duplexes. Viola neutral bonded.


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## JohnNY (Apr 27, 2020)

drmerdp said:


> For the same reason that subpanels MAY NOT have ground and neutral bonded neither shall generators feeding a home through a service panel.
> 
> Electricity does not take the Shortest path to ground. It take ALL paths to ground. Neutral is designed as a return path for electricity for completing a circuit, Ground is for safety. Neutral in the main panel is already bonded with ground. The main panel is also grounded throughly through rods. Adding a bonded generator makes a circuit for stay currents to loop through. That could mean getting shocked, or under most conditions, an induction loops that creates heat and can damage wiring terminations leading to poor connections, shorts, and fires.
> 
> A toggle switch to bond or unbond is fine, but most simply take a replacement 5-15 plug and wire a jumper from neutral to ground and plug it into one of the duplexes. Viola neutral bonded.


You are very knowledgeable Drmerdp. Learning about generators is engineering on multiple subjects....crazy. 

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