# Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start — 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts



## iowagold

Another BIG portable Jina gen





Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start delivers professional power for jobsite trailers, air compressors, large electric welders, air condit...




www.northerntool.com




Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start — 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts

check out the front panel main breaker!! 75 amps.
no outlet for that much power on the generator.. but they have an 50 amp rv outlet on the panel as well as a bunch of twist locks..
some stores have free pickup on this...
be ready for a large crate!!
Ship Weight 683.4 lbs
there is a manual down load, 
looks to be a V twin jina motor at 999CC
might be a good one to convert to natural gas or lp!
you could run a lot of stuff on 18 kw... for $3000.00 usd..
wish they had an inverter version!!


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## ToolLover

I bet the engine can actually handle the output ratings but not with the hardware it sports.
18 KW requires 36 HP and that engine produces 37 [email protected] rpm.
I think the hardware will not handle the posted ratings of 75 amps and the claim of 111 amps inrush.
My 16 KW can produce 65 amps and is breakered for 65.
It is NG or Propane powered.
The wire I used is rated for 65 amps, but I breakered it down stream for 60 amps.
Now as to appointments, no enclosure.
Generac offers a 16 KW with enclosure for $3600 shipped to your home from Generators Direct with no taxes.
Taxes in NC is 7%
That unit bought from Northern Tool in NC is: $3200.00+ and picked up at the local store without enclosure.
Add to that a conversion to NG or propane and you are in a pickle.
No remote start either.
It is a gasoline unit. I would not like to feed it for a long night's run.


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## iowagold

I have an email in to them
and just got off the phone with cs.
they think maybe 22 to 26 hp on the engine...
but they are going to check with the guys in jina on the real hp spec..
yea another jina engine..
but it does have a spin oil filter...
I need to get one in the lab and test it on the load bank!!
18 kw is a lot for that small of 999 cc engine!!

the Gillette gens are only 12kw with the honda twin...
I think they are a true 10kw at least that is what they ran on the load bank here...
there are 2 of those on the crews.
they use them for seam sealers on comercial firestone roofing.
they are ok power... but I would not plug any good electronics in on it...
some hash...


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## drmerdp

I would think 999cc is enough to make its rated 18kw. The generac 22kw standbys use a 999cc engine. Either way, thats a thirsty son of a gun. 14-15kw on natural gas with a 50amp inlet wouldn't be too shabby. Plenty of surge capacity for running central air.

This powerhorse inverter gen looks promising, not 18kw but parallelable to something close...






Powerhorse Inverter Generator 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse® Inverter Generator provides more power with less noise, plus low 1.5% total harmonic distortion for safely running sensit...




www.northerntool.com


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## iowagold

for a chonda it looks ok.
the question for me is 420cc not the 390cc
soo
parts??
and wow on the fuel consumption..
way more than honda..
hummmm


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## Yachtnutz

Hi everyone I just joined the Forum and I’m getting ready to pull the trigger on the Powerhorse 27,000. Has anyone bought this model ?

Best regards


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## jasonjax

THD would be my biggest concern, but don't V-Twins typically do a good job with THD compared to other engines?


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## drmerdp

They claim less then 5% THD in the product description. 

I don’t know anyone with that behemoth but considering it’s back ordered it looks popular.


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## Yachtnutz

Does anyone know where the I can find their homepage at . I’ve been looking and I can’t seem to find it anywhere ?


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## tabora

Yachtnutz said:


> Does anyone know where the I can find their homepage at . I’ve been looking and I can’t seem to find it anywhere ?


Powerhorse is a Northern Tool house brand: Powerhorse | Generators | Northern Tool


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## Yachtnutz

I have a question about outlet covers for generators .Since the Powerhorse 27K doesn’t come with them for some unknown reason ,can I just use any brand of rubber outlet cover used on generators,they all look the same ?


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## tabora

Outlet covers are a relatively recent affectation. The only one of my generators that has outlet covers is my 2017 PowerMate. Since you shouldn't run a generator out in bad weather without some form of cover, a generator tent or purpose-built generator house is the way to go.









GenTent XL Kit


Convert your GenTent XL Running Cover into a full Storage Cover with the GenSkirt XL Outside Storage Kit. Shop online today.




www.gentent.com


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## Yachtnutz

tabora said:


> Outlet covers are a relatively recent affectation. The only one of my generators that has outlet covers is my 2017 PowerMate. Since you shouldn't run a generator out in bad weather without some form of cover, a generator tent or purpose-built generator house is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GenTent XL Kit
> 
> 
> Convert your GenTent XL Running Cover into a full Storage Cover with the GenSkirt XL Outside Storage Kit. Shop online today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gentent.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 8047


If you don’t mind me asking which model she’d is that gen sitting in ?


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## tabora

Yachtnutz said:


> If you don’t mind me asking which model she’d is that gen sitting in ?


That's a SunCast BMS2500 shed with some added features:

PowerMate PM0126000 6000/7500W Generator - panel faces left, exhaust faces bottom of exhaust fan on right.
U.S. Carburetion MSK3101 Tri-fuel regulator with quick connect mounted on back side of generator. The primary regulator & hose can be run out a hole in the intake side for hot weather use, or on the exhaust side for cold weather use where the exhaust air keeps the tank at a moderately warm temp.
The generator legs sit in two rubber cups screwed into the floor joist so the generator can't move.
16" 1,200CFM iLiving ILG8SF16V Exhaust Fan on the right side.
17" 5NKN4 Dayton gravity operated inlet shutter on the left side.
8 Gauge pigtail on upper left side going to Hubbell HBL2710AR L14-30R receptacle.
60' 8 Gauge GenerLink cable stored on hose reel on left. Mounts on side of garage to the left.
Red L14-30P to 4x 20A 120V outlets stored on back wall for non-GenerLink use.
Thermal remote monitor mounted (out of frame) above center on rear wall, and a second one mounted outside on the propane tank.


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## Yachtnutz

tabora said:


> That's a SunCast BMS2500 shed with some added features:
> 
> PowerMate PM0126000 6000/7500W Generator - panel faces left, exhaust faces bottom of exhaust fan on right.
> U.S. Carburetion MSK3101 Tri-fuel regulator with quick connect mounted on back side of generator. The primary regulator & hose can be run out a hole in the intake side for hot weather use, or on the exhaust side for cold weather use where the exhaust air keeps the tank at a moderately warm temp.
> The generator legs sit in two rubber cups screwed into the floor joist so the generator can't move.
> 16" 1,736CFM iLiving ILG8SF16V Exhaust Fan on the right side.
> 17" 5NKN4 Dayton gravity operated inlet shutter on the left side.
> 8 Gauge pigtail on upper left side going to Hubbell HBL2710AR L14-30R receptacle.
> 60' 8 Gauge GenerLink cable stored on hose reel on left. Mounts on side of garage to the left.
> Red L14-30P to 4x 20A 120V outlets stored on back wall for non-GenerLink use.
> Thermal remote monitor mounted (out of frame) above center on rear wall, and a second one mounted outside on the propane tank.


Wow nice thanks for the information I really appreciate it!


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## iowagold

iowagold said:


> Another BIG portable Jina gen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts | Northern Tool
> 
> 
> This Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start delivers professional power for jobsite trailers, air compressors, large electric welders, air condit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.northerntool.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Powerhorse Generator with Electric Start — 27,000 Surge Watts, 18,000 Rated Watts
> 
> check out the front panel main breaker!! 75 amps.
> no outlet for that much power on the generator.. but they have an 50 amp rv outlet on the panel as well as a bunch of twist locks..
> some stores have free pickup on this...
> be ready for a large crate!!
> Ship Weight 683.4 lbs
> there is a manual down load,
> looks to be a V twin jina motor at 999CC
> might be a good one to convert to natural gas or lp!
> you could run a lot of stuff on 18 kw... for $3000.00 usd..
> wish they had an inverter version!!


they say they will be back in stock mid late nov 2020 at northern tool.


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## Yachtnutz

Well I pulled the trigger and ordered the Powerhorse 27K gen . I have no idea when it will be delivered most likely November. I guess we'll wait and see !


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## iowagold

yup some stuff is arriving early!!
i just got tracking numbers on the first batch of hondas tonight.
lol
they are on a slow boat from Jina!!
GRIN!!
the heck of it is i bet it will see the port by friday of this week.
unless there is a port issue in cali with the covid shut downs..
we have had them on order from June 2020.

the hold up was production over seas.
looks like the shippers are right on the ball!!
i bet we are looking at mid oct after the cross country trip.
and the 2 week quarantine hold at the customs port.


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## RASelkirk

In my experience, Northern is bad about not keeping parts on the books. I've got a 12 year old $2k air compressor that needs a rebuild but no parts (I started looking 5 years ago). Rings blow by so bad I've got to change the oil 3x's a year due to water contamination and PSV pops on every shut-off. My only option is to run it til it blows up then adapt a different compressor to it...

Russ


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## iowagold

yup most brands give up on parts after 10 years.
an air compressor can easy be updated to a new unit.
or take it to a good speed shop they can re sleeve the cyl bore.

depending on how bad the bore is they might be able to re hone and new rings.
it all depends on how pricey the compressor was new!!

if it was a low cost compressor under 3000.00
just replace it.
not worth the shop time to rework it.


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## RASelkirk

iowagold said:


> yup most brands give up on parts after 10 years.
> an air compressor can easy be updated to a new unit.
> or take it to a good speed shop they can re sleeve the cyl bore.
> 
> depending on how bad the bore is they might be able to re hone and new rings.
> it all depends on how pricey the compressor was new!!
> 
> if it was a low cost compressor under 3000.00
> just replace it.
> not worth the shop time to rework it.


Heck, I can hone and re-ring it, the problem is the head gaskets, gaskets, and seals are all vaporware. Whenever it blows, I'll snag a new pump.

Russ


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## iowagold

you might check in with northern tools warranty repair shop.
they might have a cross for the part numbers.


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## RASelkirk

Maybe... We tend to get wrapped up in online catalogs, because it's not there doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

Thanks!

Russ


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## iowagold

yup!
I have used off the shelf items for automotive for air compressors!!

if you have a good machine shop for doing race engines..
you can custom the rings..
and the cyl linings.

and stamp out copper head gaskets with the right press stuff!

we use a cnc plotter router for gaskets now.
pretty cool...

some use a water jet cad table system to cut thin metals gaskets.

or use grooved head and wire gasket.

in a good machine shop there is always a way..
it is just the time!!
lol!


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## Yachtnutz

Well I called Northern Tool and talked to customer service and got an ETA of late December I guess I’ll have to wait and see?


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## AP514

Sounds like the wait I am having with my Manual Transfer Switch..was 4-6 weeks turning into 6-8 weeks


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## iowagold

yup hard to plan any job during a pandemic!
and things are about to get tighter in the next few months!!
gear up!
get your spare parts, and your equipment now!
be ready!
I have parts arriving that were ordered in june of 2020 this last week 12 nov 2020!

mask up!
and stay home!


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## Yachtnutz

I received my Generator yesterday and let me tell you this thing is a Beast . The delivery guy even help me get it the garage . This monster is no joke , I didn’t realize just how big it was until I took it out of the box , I just wish that I had help putting the wheels on , I tried to get them on while still on the pallet that doesn’t work so I had to lift it off the pallet, then you can get the wheels on with no problem ,other then that it was a piece of cake ! Here’s some pictures of my Beast


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## drmerdp

Cool, yeah its a monster, duel outlet muffler to boot. Looking forward to a review once you have a chance to use it.


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## iowagold

now the big problem is how to get all that power out of the gen..
that is 112 amps at 240 vac.
the largest is a 50 amp on there right now..

yea i wish you had a load bank and a spectrum unit to see it work through it paces!

the cool thing if you had it on NG or LP there is plenty of room left for the loss of power on the alt fuel.

shoot some video if you get a chance so we can hear it run!


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## Bluwolf

Just curious because I skimmed the manual and didn't see anything. What is the fuel consumption on a beast like that?


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## iowagold

off the box it works out to 2.125 gallons per hour at 1/2 load
lol
I can hear the suck sound here in Iowa! slurp!! grin!
close to 1000cc of engine. a real wow for a gen on wheels!

yea a good candidate for natural gas conversion.

it will not be cheap to run... but it is a big beast!


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## iowagold

on the unboxing a mental not for us all.
it does have a lifting hook eye on top.
so maybe an engine lift or a chain hoist or jib hoist would be cool to get it out of the crate with one man.


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## drmerdp

Definitely a great candidate for NG. Rated at 18kw, the ~2kw loss is a comfortable 16kw.


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## iowagold

drmerdp said:


> Definitely a great candidate for NG. Rated at 18kw, the ~2kw loss is a comfortable 16kw.


yup i agree!


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## sportplumber

Looks like DR which is a Generac company has a similar unit:





PRO XL17500P 17500W Portable Generator | DR Power Equipment


Maximum Power! You can't find a more powerful portable generator available anywhere!Power your entire home. Free Shipping and a free hands-on trial!




www.drpower.com





Although if the specs ar correct it is over 200lbs lighter.


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## drmerdp

Shipping weights are wild 683lb vs 513lb. Is the added weight an indicator of better quility...maybe. Personally I think DR products are unimpressive.


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## iowagold

most dr items are TV marketing.
and lots of markup!


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## sportplumber

I am not endorsing DR. Just thought it was interesting that they have a new similar unit. I think DR stuff was better before Generac bought them, but just my opinion.


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## Yachtnutz

So Finally got around to putting the wheels and tires and all the other items that needed installed on this beast and I put fuel 17.5 gallons be exact in the tank added the oil and went to start it and what do you know it wouldn’t start . I took the air cleaner filters out and sprayed starter spray down the throat turned the key and it started right away . Then it stopped once the spray was gone . So I tried restarting it nothing happened, so I sprayed more starter spray and it started again . So as long as I sprayed the fluid down the throat it runs so it’s not getting fuel for some reason , I called the CS number and the guy tells me to drain the fuel and see if the carbs getting fuel WTF . I’m not happy at all I paid a lot of money for this Gen and it won’t start 🤬 

p.s. this is a very loud Gen as far as I can tell !


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## Ground Fault

I bet it is something real simple. Should be easy to diagnose. It is a sad commentary on the whole generator industry that the new buyer having to diagnose issues such as these is almost a given, and tolerated by the buying public. Without action or intent by the industry to make it otherwise. Nothing better than learning how to work on your new generator...before it gets old and messy!


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## Yachtnutz

Ground Fault said:


> I bet it is something real simple. Should be easy to diagnose. It is a sad commentary on the whole generator industry that the new buyer having to diagnose issues such as these is almost a given, and tolerated by the buying public. Without action or intent by the industry to make it otherwise. Nothing better than learning how to work on your new generator...before it gets old and messy!


It just pisses me off that I have to trouble shoot a brand new never use Gen !


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## PLX

Can I ask what do you plan on powering with this beast? Thx


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## tabora

Yachtnutz said:


> so it’s not getting fuel for some reason


So, there's like three possibilities for not getting fuel in a brand-new generator:

Clogged Fuel Screen or Fuel Line
Fuel Valve Turned Off
Stuck Float/Needle Valve


Check the Fuel Valve again. Open and close it a few times.
Open the drain on the carb bowl. If fuel doesn't flow out with the fuel valve open, it's one of the other two issues.
Take off the bowl and check the float operation.

Once you've got fuel flowing, to start the engine (from the manual):

Disconnect all loads to the generator.
Turn the FUEL SWITCH to the ON position.
For cold engine, pull CHOKE knob out to the full choke position. To restart a warm engine, push the CHOKE knob to the half choke position or to the RUN position.
Start the engine


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## speedy2019

Just imagine how wuch that would cost if it was a honda?


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## Old man here

Yachtnutz said:


> It just pisses me off that I have to trouble shoot a brand new never use Gen !


Check the fuel shutoff solenoid on the carburetor. You should hear it click when you turn the key on.
It needs a full 12V to operate. Could your battery be weak enough to supply enough to not allow the solenoid to operate while starting.


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## Bulldogger

Can a natural gas conversion be done on this? If so, how? Looks like they have them in stock. I just bought an 11000 watt Powerhorse and it looks like good quality. Mine started right up and runs very smoothly. I just want a bigger one .Generac is also a choice and I see the conversion kits for it.


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## Bulldogger

sportplumber said:


> Looks like DR which is a Generac company has a similar unit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRO XL17500P 17500W Portable Generator | DR Power Equipment
> 
> 
> Maximum Power! You can't find a more powerful portable generator available anywhere!Power your entire home. Free Shipping and a free hands-on trial!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drpower.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although if the specs ar correct it is over 200lbs lighter.


 Funny thing is that it's 200lbs lighter but is a bigger generator. Generac is so back-ordered. I ordered this power horse and it should be here in about 10 days. Northern tool said 100 days for Generac. How big of a natural gas line would I need if I convert it?


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## Bulldogger

I emailed Matt an PNGtechnologies for a tri-fuel conversion kit. He needs this model generator to build the kit. I'm not aware of any companies that yet offer a natural gas and propane conversion kit for this generator. Anyone in Michigan might want to work with Matt to get a custom kit made. I'm still exploring options. Generator is back ordered but Northern Tool says it should ship next week.


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## Airstreamer67

Yo Yachtnutz: Did you get her started?


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## Fig

Does anyone have a picture of the rear where the exhaust is? I am planning on building a small enclosure for this beast and would like to know what the exhaust outlet looks like. Mine is not scheduled to be in store ready for pick-up until the end-ish of March.


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## Airstreamer67

Seems like one of the pictures above shows the muffler, but that picture seems to have been taken while the plastic shipping cover was still on. The muffler appears to have two holes; maybe one for each cylinder to create a dual exhaust of sorts


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## Fig

Airstreamer67 said:


> Seems like one of the pictures above shows the muffler, but that picture seems to have been taken while the plastic shipping cover was still on. The muffler appears to have two holes; maybe one for each cylinder to create a dual exhaust of sorts


My bad for asking. When I initially looked at the post, I wasn't a member yet, no that I am registered, I can see the photos. It does look like it has dual outlets. Cool!


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## Bulldogger

Fig said:


> Does anyone have a picture of the rear where the exhaust is? I am planning on building a small enclosure for this beast and would like to know what the exhaust outlet looks like. Mine is not scheduled to be in store ready for pick-up until the end-ish of March.


 I sent Zombie Box a pic of the rear to see what they can do. The dual mufflers I think need some special consideration. Building something, I'm sure can be done for a fraction of the price.


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## Bulldogger

Airstreamer67 said:


> Yo Yachtnutz: Did you get her started?


 I sent a pm awhile back and he was still dealing with the aftermath of the freeze in Texas and had not had a chance to look at it.


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## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> I emailed Matt an PNGtechnologies for a tri-fuel conversion kit. He needs this model generator to build the kit. I'm not aware of any companies that yet offer a natural gas and propane conversion kit for this generator. Anyone in Michigan might want to work with Matt to get a custom kit made. I'm still exploring options. Generator is back ordered but Northern Tool says it should ship next week.


Were you able to get your hands on a conversion kit? Looking to purchase the Powerhorse 18000/27000 but really need natural gas as a fuel source.


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## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Were you able to get your hands on a conversion kit? Looking to purchase the Powerhorse 18000/27000 but really need natural gas as a fuel source.


I was waiting to get it before I pursued the conversion further. It came in today












.

I can’t tinker with it till Friday. I want to crank it and make sure it runs fine. Then I’ll figure out how to convert it. It just came in. Took 2 months. I was using rope to tie it down when I got an alert from your response. It was backordered for a month and then took another month to get to store. I believe shipping is much faster if you ship to home.


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## Texas T

Congratulations!!

FYI - I spoke to a person at US Carb as they did not have this generator listed on their site and they sent me this kit number (below) . There was some confusion in the email communications so I was a bit hesitant which is why I was asking.

MSK3016 - MOTOR SNORKEL TRI-FUEL (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Conversion Kit - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion


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## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Congratulations!!
> 
> FYI - I spoke to a person at US Carb as they did not have this generator listed on their site and they sent me this kit number (below) . There was some confusion in the email communications so I was a bit hesitant which is why I was asking.
> 
> MSK3016 - MOTOR SNORKEL TRI-FUEL (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Conversion Kit - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion


 Hmmm. Well it's about the right size considering that's the kit that is for the Generac 17500 watt generator which is about the same power as this generator. I'll call and aske too.


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## JohnWhicker

Thats a BEAST man


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## Bulldogger

Crank immediately. I pulled choke first. Loud. 95db standing right next to it. 70db with garage door closed and 10 feet back from door.


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## iowagold

yup they are a beast!
think concrete block gen shack steel door , clad with steel, insulated and spray the inside with bed liner material with a gen stack going up.
that is what it takes to tame the v twin noise...
they are LOUD!
almost as bad as a harley with pipes!
lol!


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## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> yup they are a beast!
> think concrete block gen shack steel door , clad with steel, insulated and spray the inside with bed liner material with a gen stack going up.
> that is what it takes to tame the v twin noise...
> they are LOUD!
> almost as bad as a harley with pipes!
> lol!


 Now you tell me! . To build a shed to quiet this thing. I am going to have to use Green Glue Home . First I'd build a frame of the shed that would have to have double walls. The inside wall would be doubled plywood with the Green Glue in-between and screwed to frame. I'd put fiberglass insulation inside between inner and outer wall, standard house construction of exterior walls. The outside layer of plywood would be again doubled plywood and screwed into frame. You could also use doubled drywall for the inside wall, quicker and easier to cut than plywood. If you really want it quiet, after you have your frame and outside wall up, put some mass loaded vinyl over the fiberglass, then put up your double layer inner wall with the green glue in-between 1 LB Noise Grabber™ Brand MLV 54" x 2' | Order 1 LB Noise Grabber™ Brand MLV 54" x 2' Online


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## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Congratulations!!
> 
> FYI - I spoke to a person at US Carb as they did not have this generator listed on their site and they sent me this kit number (below) . There was some confusion in the email communications so I was a bit hesitant which is why I was asking.
> 
> MSK3016 - MOTOR SNORKEL TRI-FUEL (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Conversion Kit - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion





Texas T said:


> You have to take control panel off to remove tank. 8mm socket for both. Then you have to remove a cover to get to carburetor, looks like 10mm cause 8 was too small and 11 too big. I’m stopping for today. The control panel and tank are very easy to remove.
> 
> I don’t know the shape of the carburetor so don’t know if kit will fit. I’ll have to take it a loose and see.


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## drmerdp

Looking forward to see how the conversion goes.


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## iowagold

also look at the concrete board stuff they use for under layment on tile!
that stuff is fire proof!
pm me if you need links to what i am talking about.
2nd best choice for concrete block bunker...

built it so it will not walk off...
grin!
some have even used rings in the concrete floor so they can chain lock it down
or bolt it down.


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## Airstreamer67

I've got a really loud Yanmar diesel generator and a really quite Honda gasoline generator.

I don't mind running either one during storm outages despite the obvious noise difference. In fact, the loud diesel is my first-call option, and only if I need more does the quite Honda come out.

Even though the Yanmar diesel is loud, it is only used during storm outages. It never occurs to me that the extra noise is a problem. Really, it's not, unless you let it be. If it were a problem, I'd just turn up the volume on the two satellite TVs that are blasting away night and day around here.


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## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Congratulations!!
> 
> FYI - I spoke to a person at US Carb as they did not have this generator listed on their site and they sent me this kit number (below) . There was some confusion in the email communications so I was a bit hesitant which is why I was asking.
> 
> MSK3016 - MOTOR SNORKEL TRI-FUEL (Natural Gas, Propane, and Gasoline) Conversion Kit - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion


 I've been looking at that kit. I have few close ups of snorkel from their ebay pics on a Generac


















. If you look at the diagram from the owner's manual of the Powerhorse 99932 , the carburator is the same type as on the Generac that this kit fits. It's a four bolt carb. Will the gasket/snorkel work? Hmmm, we will have to see. I'll call them tomorrow. I'll see if they can fabricate it if the one in the kit does not work if they were provided a carb from a Powerhorse 99932. May not even need the carb, just those gaskets parts 85,86;87 to see. Pic in diagram shows four bolt pattern just like Generac. The pics are from the EBay pics of Motorsnokel from that kit on a Generac.


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## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Looking forward to see how the conversion goes.


 I spoke with U.S carburation. Lady I spoke with pulled the info for the model. She says they have done 3 so far and the kit works. I ordered the Motorsnorkel kit and 12 feet of house as well as some parts to use a large propane tank. Something about a high pressure regulator?, on tank and a low pressure one at generator to keep line from freezing. Kit should ship tomorrow.


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## Bulldogger

Well parts came. I’ll install over weekend


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## Texas T

I ordered my kit yesterday and going with natural gas as that is available. Trying to figure out hose length based on 3/4 inch. Hoping to be able to use 10ft but the things I have read say that would support a 28 horsepower motor and I think this one may be 30 or in the low 30’s but that is my best guess. Looking forward to seeing your results


----------



## iowagold

do the math by the HP of the engine for the hose and pipe.
and remember the rules on fittings for reducing flow.


----------



## Texas T

iowagold said:


> do the math by the HP of the engine for the hose and pipe.
> and remember the rules on fittings for reducing flow.


Would be nice. Unfortunately they no longer supply horsepower rating for the motor and since HP is dependent upon multiple factors, I am left comparing this generator with close equivalents and extrapolating …


----------



## drmerdp

Texas T said:


> Would be nice. Unfortunately they no longer supply horsepower rating for the motor and since HP is dependent upon multiple factors, I am left comparing this generator with close equivalents and extrapolating …


There is a sae rating for small engines, but powerhouse does not list the number. As far as extrapolating goes, I get between 300-320cfh (300,000-320,000btu) on the safe side. 

The good news is that generac and kohler standby units have 999cc engines too and have listed fuel requirements In their installation manuals.


----------



## iowagold

let me know if you need honda engine specs.
pm me.
they are on the service groups site.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> I ordered my kit yesterday and going with natural gas as that is available. Trying to figure out hose length based on 3/4 inch. Hoping to be able to use 10ft but the things I have read say that would support a 28 horsepower motor and I think this one may be 30 or in the low 30’s but that is my best guess. Looking forward to seeing your results


 I have the kit on.































Burned out for today. Have to springs to put back on throttle and then put cover over carb, fuel tank, and control panel back on. I'm tired and forgot to take pics of the springs on the throttle. I'm sure I'll figure it out when I'm fresh. The two springs on throttle are last thing. The way the pipes on the kit sweep, you almost have to put regulator on the side by the control panel. However there is no were to really mount it. I bought some pipes and home depot to rig something. I'll spray paint them black if it works. Don't see why it won't.


----------



## drmerdp

Cool man, it’s coming together. Why the pipes though?


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Cool man, it’s coming together. Why the pipes though?


The side with outlets doesn’t have a place to mount the regulator. I couldn’t think of a a better idea? With some generators you can mount to frame but this generator has handles to each side and the electrical panel mounted across top. The frame is open there with no tubing. You can’t mount regulator to electrical panel. So I’m creating a place to mount regulator. If you mount to opposite side, you don’t have enough fuel line and it would twist line and block fuel. Guess you could mount to side? But if you look where I have pipes, fuel line from carburetor are straight and dropped right there.


----------



## drmerdp

Personally I would fab up a bracket to mount the regulator next to the battery. 

Do you plan to run the generator in an enclosure or out in the open? More to consider if your planning an enclosure for it.


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Personally I would fab up a bracket to mount the regulator next to the battery.


 You’d just need more fuel line than comes with kit to be able to make a long turn to keep from bending line and creating a block in it. The generator is so loud that an enclosure is a must.


----------



## drmerdp

Usually their kits come with around 26” of hose on their single snorkel setups. They recommend using the least amount of hose necessary and not exceeding 26”.

How much hose we’re you supplied?


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Usually their kits come with around 26” of hose on their single snorkel setups. They recommend using the least amount of hose necessary and not exceeding 26”.
> 
> How much hose we’re you supplied?


 Sounds about right. If you look at the end where the snorkel is, it's flat. I don't think it can take much bending without restricting flow. If mount the regulator, high above battery, you may be able to pull it off. Being this is my first attempt, I did not want to have the hose bend so much that it puts pressure on snorkel and stop flow. I kept the hoses as straight as possible and I wanted the regulator on the end like in the Generac 17500 installs.


----------



## iowagold

we divorce the demand regulator from the gen set...
they last longer without the vibration!

use quick couplers on the front panel or some where to keep it short.
mount the reg 45 to 90 deg of any panel or influence 
for vibration...
that way the inside the demand regulator does not get trashed due to vibration.

keep the demand reg to the gen hose as short as you can...
this affects the response to load changes..

.we use 3./8 quick coupler for the small gens.
and 1/2 on the larger gens just for the coupler from the demand reg to the gen feed.

then use the silicone caps and plugs on the quick connectors when not connected or when on gasoline to keep trash out and to keep air bleed down.

it sure is handy to be able to fast disconnect when doing a service job!

we do some sort of wheel hold to make the gens sit on one place.
think cup or rectangle on the floor of the gen shed to stop rolling or vibration movement.
yes treated lumber for wood floor, welded angle aluminum for concrete floor and use concrete screws.

think fast any easy to move for service!


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Usually their kits come with around 26” of hose on their single snorkel setups. They recommend using the least amount of hose necessary and not exceeding 26”.
> 
> How much hose we’re you supplied?


 If you zip tie the hose off the snorkel, you can make a 180 turn and keep the pipe end of snorkle from deforming and mount regulator on side above battery. I’m still playing with this. Not in a rush. I should have been cause my power is out right now. 😅. Should be back soon.
I have throttle back working. Hope to have generator running this weekend on propane. Under outlet panel is though the straightest path. I likely will still mount there to keep hoses as straight as possible.


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> If you zip tie the hose off the snorkel, you can make a 180 turn and keep the pipe end of snorkle from deforming and mount regulator on side above battery. I’m still playing with this. Not in a rush. I should have been cause my power is out right now. 😅. Should be back soon.
> I have throttle back working. Hope to have generator running this weekend on propane. Under outlet panel is though the straightest path. I likely will still mount there to keep hoses as straight as possible.


----------



## Texas T

Just received my generator yesterday. Going to run it for a couple hours and then start the install of the us carb kit this weekend. Definitely a tough mounting application as the most logical place is smack in front of the control panel and in between two handles used to lift it which is another interference point. Hose length is about 26in on both hoses. Wondering if I could extend them slightly and mount to the top of the unit placing a cross brace as mounting bar. At first guess need about 6” more of line.


----------



## drmerdp

Texas T said:


> Just received my generator yesterday. Going to run it for a couple hours and then start the install of the us carb kit this weekend. Definitely a tough mounting application as the most logical place is smack in front of the control panel and in between two handles used to lift it which is another interference point. Hose length is about 26in on both hoses. Wondering if I could extend them slightly and mount to the top of the unit placing a cross brace as mounting bar. At first guess need about 6” more of line.


I wouldn’t add to the hose length. Do whatever you have to do to make the hoses work at the stock length.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Just received my generator yesterday. Going to run it for a couple hours and then start the install of the us carb kit this weekend. Definitely a tough mounting application as the most logical place is smack in front of the control panel and in between two handles used to lift it which is another interference point. Hose length is about 26in on both hoses. Wondering if I could extend them slightly and mount to the top of the unit placing a cross brace as mounting bar. At first guess need about 6” more of line.


 Yeah. Hence my ugly bracket. 12 inch 1/2 pipe, elbow, then 4.5 inch pipe, tee and then two 4.5 inch pipes on end of tee. I had to drill out the holes in the end bracket to get the U-bolts to fit and also tap them with my mallet to get them to fit holes. Hey one of you boys with the "fine engineering minds" can maybe come up with something more elegant? Just stuff I got out of pipe section at Home Depot. All I know is my "rig" will work for the location beneath the panel till I find something "purdy."


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Just received my generator yesterday. Going to run it for a couple hours and then start the install of the us carb kit this weekend. Definitely a tough mounting application as the most logical place is smack in front of the control panel and in between two handles used to lift it which is another interference point. Hose length is about 26in on both hoses. Wondering if I could extend them slightly and mount to the top of the unit placing a cross brace as mounting bar. At first guess need about 6” more of line.


 When you get started, take off control panel and then tank. Next I"d take off the black bracket that partially blocks the throttle/choke assembly. I had to remove that assembly to get four bolts out of carb. Could you please take some pics of the choke/ throttle assembly? I am not sure about the attachment of the big spring. I am usually better than this and take extensive pics before I disassemble. Got over-confident. I don't think I need that spring for throttle, only choke which you can no longer need but would like to have it attached properly.


----------



## drmerdp

Bulldogger said:


> Yeah. Hence my ugly bracket. 12 inch 1/2 pipe, elbow, then 4.5 inch pipe, tee and then two 4.5 inch pipes on end of tee. I had to drill out the holes in the end bracket to get the U-bolts to fit and also tap them with my mallet to get them to fit holes. Hey one of you boys with the "fine engineering minds" can maybe come up with something more elegant? Just stuff I got out of pipe section at Home Depot. All I know is my "rig" will work for the location beneath the panel till I find something "purdy."
> View attachment 9203


I can think of a couple options. Steel plate bolted to the brace under the engine. Or a steel bar running across the front of the engine. U-bolts or split ring hangers.








Oatey 3/4 in. Galvanized Split Ring Pipe Hanger 33552 - The Home Depot


Oatey offers a complete range of pipe support products for all of your application needs. Whether it's securing supply lines, DWV pipe or supporting your work with brackets and bars, you can count on us for quality, performance and innovation. Built for quality and ease of use.



www.homedepot.com


----------



## Texas T

drmerdp said:


> I can think of a couple options. Steel plate bolted to the brace under the engine. Or a steel bar running across the front of the engine. U-bolts or split ring hangers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oatey 3/4 in. Galvanized Split Ring Pipe Hanger 33552 - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> Oatey offers a complete range of pipe support products for all of your application needs. Whether it's securing supply lines, DWV pipe or supporting your work with brackets and bars, you can count on us for quality, performance and innovation. Built for quality and ease of use.
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com


Ok, did not realize it at first glance but now i see you bracket does not interfere with the handle, smart design. 

Yeah, would rather not extend the hose as the only thing creating the gas flow is the vacuum.


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> I can think of a couple options. Steel plate bolted to the brace under the engine. Or a steel bar running across the front of the engine. U-bolts or split ring hangers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oatey 3/4 in. Galvanized Split Ring Pipe Hanger 33552 - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> Oatey offers a complete range of pipe support products for all of your application needs. Whether it's securing supply lines, DWV pipe or supporting your work with brackets and bars, you can count on us for quality, performance and innovation. Built for quality and ease of use.
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com


 I wanted to use pipe hanger bracket but it was something I had to order. Also, the tubing is more like 1 inch or 1.25 inch.
My plan was to be done same day and maybe modify later. The bigger pipe is much heavier and gen is already heavy. The trick is use the smallest size pipe and yet be able to mount to the larger tubing of gen.

Also, the pipe hanger bracket is designed to not fit the pipe but be larger than the pipe as to accommodate a range of pipe sizes for hanging. It’s 1.5 inches wide, which is larger than tubing. You will have to thicken the frame to use it. That was another reason, I didn't order it.


----------



## Bulldogger

I purchased the hose kit for connection to a propane tank. Not included waa an Acme nut High Pressure Propane Acme Nut x QCC/Type 1 x 1/4" MPT to screw into tank threads. Tractor Supply has them rated for 80000 btu appliances. Not sure rating needed.


----------



## drmerdp

I think you are in 280,000 to 300,000 btu per hour territory...


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> I think you are in 280,000 to 300,000 btu per hour territory...


Thanks!


----------



## Bulldogger

Turns out I found a local company that has all the parts I need. They also have a guy that does generator conversions. If I have any problems with my process, just bring gen by and they will figure it out. Great older gentlemen with a tremendous amount of knowledge . I probably would have just purchased kit and let them do it had I known. Anyone who does not want to do this themselves, should call local propane supply and parts companies and ask. I’ll finish tomorrow and see what I get. Does not work, I’ll drop it off to those guys. I am however confident I can get it working. Hard parts done.


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> Turns out I found a local company that has all the parts I need. They also have a guy that does generator conversions. If I have any problems with my process, just bring gen by and they will figure it out. Great older gentlemen with a tremendous amount of knowledge . I probably would have just purchased kit and let them do it had I known. Anyone who does not want to do this themselves, should call local propane supply and parts companies and ask. I’ll finish tomorrow and see what I get. Does not work, I’ll drop it off to those guys. I am however confident I can get it working. Hard parts done.


Food for thought. Purchased 2 tees for fence post from Lowe’s and 2ft of 1 1/4 in outside diameter pipe. I got the pipe from a local shop but they sell aluminum pipe in this diameter on Amazon as well.



https://www.lowes.com/pd/BRACE-RAIL-CLMP-1-3-8-INX1-3-8-IN/1002858880


----------



## drmerdp

How ever you mount it, be thoughtful of having adequate space between the regulator and the front covers air intake. It’s critical for engine cooling, and it’s a BIG engine.

I like the clamp, nice secure way to attach to the frame.

This angle says alot. I’m leaning toward a plate mounted the the brace under the frame.


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> Turns out I found a local company that has all the parts I need. They also have a guy that does generator conversions. If I have any problems with my process, just bring gen by and they will figure it out. Great older gentlemen with a tremendous amount of knowledge . I probably would have just purchased kit and let them do it had I known. Anyone who does not want to do this themselves, should call local propane supply and parts companies and ask. I’ll finish tomorrow and see what I get. Does not work, I’ll drop it off to those guys. I am however confident I can get it working. Hard parts done.


Food for thought. Purchased 2 tees for fence post from Lowe’s and 2ft of 1 1/4 in outside diameter pipe. I got the pipe from a local shop but they sell aluminum pipe in this diameter on Amazon as well.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/BRACE-RAIL-CLMP-1-3-8-INX1-3-8-IN/1002858880


drmerdp said:


> How ever you mount it, be thoughtful of having adequate space between the regulator and the front covers air intake. It’s critical for engine cooling, and it’s a BIG engine.
> 
> I like the clamp, nice secure way to attach to the frame.
> 
> This angle says alot. I’m leaning toward a plate mounted the the brace under the frame.
> View attachment 9229


Good guidance. I am going to set it up and see. I think I have enough space between the bars and the intake but will monitor it. I could always put a stand-off on the mounting holes to give it some additional space. Let me know if/when you do the plate.


----------



## drmerdp

Heres how mine sits, as an example.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Food for thought. Purchased 2 tees for fence post from Lowe’s and 2ft of 1 1/4 in outside diameter pipe. I got the pipe from a local shop but they sell aluminum pipe in this diameter on Amazon as well.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/BRACE-RAIL-CLMP-1-3-8-INX1-3-8-IN/1002858880
> 
> 
> View attachment 9228


I like it! Some black paint should finish the job.


----------



## tabora

drmerdp said:


> Heres how mine sits, as an example.


And mine, as another...


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> I like it! Some black paint should finish the job.


Just got the snorkel in. I have not reassembled the throttle assemble yet but did your choke close with it installed?


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Just got the snorkel in. I have not reassembled the throttle assemble yet but did your choke close with it installed?


The choke will not close with it in. Did you snap a pic of throttle? Think I have it figured out but would like to know 100%. Pretty sure the large spring controls engine speed and thus frequency. Mine still cranks fine with gasoline. I figure with no functioning choke if you had trouble cranking with gasoline, you need starting fluid. Shouldn’t need choke with natural gas or propane.


----------



## Texas T

Texas T said:


> Just got the snorkel in. I have not reassembled the throttle assemble yet but did your choke close with it installed?


Never mind….


----------



## tabora

Texas T said:


> did your choke close with it installed?


Mine does, but it requires some force. It has to squeeze the snorkel a bit. You don't use the choke on propane, only for gasoline.


----------



## iowagold

just make sure to leave the choke open when stored so it does not crush the tube all the time..
that plastic memory thing!


----------



## tabora

iowagold said:


> just make sure to leave the choke open when stored so it does not crush the tube all the time..
> that plastic memory thing!


It would be odd to apply the choke fully when shutting off the generator, so likely not a problem...


----------



## iowagold

after the engine is off we turn on the choke or close the choke to keep anything out of the carb....
bugs mice etc...
they like to eat at the air filters etc.

and before season start up we check the air filter as well as the oil on stored equipment.
just to be sure.
and plug / cover the exhaust as mud dobbers like to build in any holes!


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> The choke will not close with it in. Did you snap a pic of throttle? Think I have it figured out but would like to know 100%. Pretty sure the large spring controls engine speed and thus frequency. Mine still cranks fine with gasoline. I figure with no functioning choke if you had trouble cranking with gasoline, you need starting fluid. Shouldn’t need choke with natural gas or propane.


Got lots of pics and will attach them. I had to play with it a bit and the throttle at least closes partially at this point but you are right about not really needing it on nat gas or propane. Also have progressed some on the mounting but i got side tracked.















































































Yes


----------



## Texas T

Texas T said:


> Got lots of pics and will attach them. I had to play with it a bit and the throttle at least closes partially at this point but you are right about not really needing it on nat gas or propane. Also have progressed some on the mounting but i got side tracked.
> View attachment 9254
> View attachment 9255
> View attachment 9256
> View attachment 9257
> View attachment 9258
> View attachment 9259
> View attachment 9260
> View attachment 9261
> View attachment 9262
> 
> 
> View attachment 9253
> View attachment 9253
> Yes


----------



## Texas T

tabora said:


> Mine does, but it requires some force. It has to squeeze the snorkel a bit. You don't use the choke on propane, only for gasoline.


Thanks. I had to take it apart and install it again and it now closes with some effort.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Thanks. I had to take it apart and install it again and it now closes with some effort.


 Thank you, bless you, for all of the excellent pics!


----------



## drmerdp

Nice, looks like it’s coming along. That’s a good spot for regulator.


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> I think you are in 280,000 to 300,000 btu per hour territory...


 It looks like, they gave me part of the connection for a 100 pound tank. I didn't get the part that screws into the "bottle.". U.S. Carburation has so far had excellent customer service. I called and they had it in the mail the next day. I got it in 2 days. I didn't need the Acme nut. I needed this.


















Screws in counter clockwise.


----------



## iowagold

yea all of the conversion stuff is bits from here and there...
they are all different as most folks have custom setups!


----------



## Bulldogger

Well, it's all together but can't get it to start on propane. Never tried to "catch." Works fine on gasoline still. I'm not foolin with it any further. Likely something simple. The fine retired gentleman that works at the propane distributor and parts supply is an expert at this. He wanted me to bring it by even if I didn't need any help so he could see it and look it over. He knows the people at U.S Carburation as well. Once they get it running, I can pick out a new propane tank and get it filled while I'm there. He only works on Friday so I'll give him a heads up that I'll be there on Friday. I'll report back what the problem was.

Got that big spring back in right spot thanks to pics from Texas T and frequency is back right. It's running 62.5 frequency without any load. I hooked up my big miter saw to it and watched the frequency. Ran at 60.5Hz at least according to the display.


----------



## iowagold

you do have the gasoline total shut off and ran the carb dry of gasoline right?
if not it will over fuel the gen for a no start.

press and hold the prime button on the demand reg a few times...
it may take total of 10-30 sec to purge the air the first time.

you can even do that with the hose off at the demand reg till it smells of lp...
on first connection...
you have to push all of the air out of the LP or NG hoses and feed lines...
i prefer to use female quick couplers on the hoses so it locks them full of LP or NG
then you can use a back to back male as a short coupler to join to the feed.

I wish the male side had a quick shut off ball built in like the female side for quick break style.
I guess you could put in a full port brass LP / NG ball valve inline on the males.


----------



## Texas T

I am going to try it out this weekend so keep your fingers crossed for me. Let me know what your person says was the issue after he is done.


----------



## Texas T

Ok, so made my first attempt. Had to regap the plugs as they were sitting about .035 so now they are close to the .020 gap. Adjusted about 8 turns and it ran like a champ …. Until the gasoline that was left in the line ran out. Good news I didn’t break it bad news I could not feather in the nat gas. Second attempt after rechecking the soak gap, was able to run the generator but only by keeping the primer button depressed. No amount of adjusting to make it richer helped. I am running 2 psi up to the generator and then knock down to 8” WC. 
Next step is to disassemble and check for any snorkel path restrictions in the carb.


----------



## Texas T

Bulldogger said:


> Well, it's all together but can't get it to start on propane. Never tried to "catch." Works fine on gasoline still. I'm not foolin with it any further. Likely something simple. The fine retired gentleman that works at the propane distributor and parts supply is an expert at this. He wanted me to bring it by even if I didn't need any help so he could see it and look it over. He knows the people at U.S Carburation as well. Once they get it running, I can pick out a new propane tank and get it filled while I'm there. He only works on Friday so I'll give him a heads up that I'll be there on Friday. I'll report back what the problem was.
> 
> Got that big spring back in right spot thanks to pics from Texas T and frequency is back right. It's running 62.5 frequency without any load. I hooked up my big miter saw to it and watched the frequency. Ran at 60.5Hz at least according to the display.


Did he get it running?


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Ok, so made my first attempt. Had to regap the plugs as they were sitting about .035 so now they are close to the .020 gap. Adjusted about 8 turns and it ran like a champ …. Until the gasoline that was left in the line ran out. Good news I didn’t break it bad news I could not feather in the nat gas. Second attempt after rechecking the soak gap, was able to run the generator but only by keeping the primer button depressed. No amount of adjusting to make it richer helped. I am running 2 psi up to the generator and then knock down to 8” WC.
> Next step is to disassemble and check for any snorkel path restrictions in the carb.


 I didn't get it running. I thought also to check the restriction on the snorkel but just have not. I'm still going to take it to propane shop because I suspect it's another issue they they will be able to quickly find. Last time I was there, I was asked what was up with the extra green regulator? U.S. Carb says that's not it but I may take it off and see. U.S. carb was to send me a more extensive trouble shooting guide via email but likely a mix up as to why I didn't get it. So far, they have been very responsive with good customer service, hence my lack of concern that this will be figured out.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> you do have the gasoline total shut off and ran the carb dry of gasoline right?
> if not it will over fuel the gen for a no start.
> 
> press and hold the prime button on the demand reg a few times...
> it may take total of 10-30 sec to purge the air the first time.
> 
> you can even do that with the hose off at the demand reg till it smells of lp...
> on first connection...
> you have to push all of the air out of the LP or NG hoses and feed lines...
> i prefer to use female quick couplers on the hoses so it locks them full of LP or NG
> then you can use a back to back male as a short coupler to join to the feed.
> 
> I wish the male side had a quick shut off ball built in like the female side for quick break style.
> I guess you could put in a full port brass LP / NG ball valve inline on the males.


 Gold, I'm pushing a natural gas powered big rig for UPS, 674 miles a day, 5 days a week! Man! I hate the switch to NG from diesel. UPS is already governed down to 68mph, but the long range LNG tractor is just a wimp on the hills. I pull double trailers which really bog it down. I don't have any more time to put into it. Still have a new PC to build and one of those America's Rifle #15 to finish now that my barrel and upper are shipping. Those guys at propane shop have an extensive array of parts and decades of knowledge that I'm sure I will find time saving. I was too tired to get it over there last week but it's on the agenda for the coming week.

I did switch my panel from main lug to main breaker. I ordered a G.E. 50 amp inlet box, interlock, and Hubble plugs. I am about to purchase some cable to build a cord. Any recommendations of which type of cord to use? This is my plan right now carol soow 4/4 (wireandsupply.com)

Oh, yes, I did trouble shoot the gen before I gave up.


----------



## iowagold

well the cng is good for the environment. (compressed natural gas)
the by product of combustion is mostly water..
so are you hourly on paid? or by the mile?
grin!
if you are by the hour paid what is the hurry? 
grin!
but if you are a contractor by the mile... yea lack of speed kills your profits...
and yea you have a time from point to point in there too...
rough job for sure!

so on lp or ng for the gen set
you have 3 regulators in those systems
the first is to go from tank pressure (200psi) or main line street pressure (most are at 20 psi) down to 2 lbs.
second is to go from 2 lbs to 11-13 in wc (about 1/2 a psi)
and the last is the demand regulator right next to the engine.
suction from the engine trips the fuel to flow.
the other thing that works in to this is the btu rating on those regulators need to be matched for the appliance or gen set.
too large and precision flow is bumpy too small and the engine is starved for fuel.

so yea good pressure and flow meters are needed to make sure at all of the test points have proper pressure as well as flow in cfm.

a good engineering shop for the alt fuels will have this gear.
pm me if you need links for this test gear.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> well the cng is good for the environment. (compressed natural gas)
> the by product of combustion is mostly water..
> so are you hourly on paid? or by the mile?
> grin!
> if you are by the hour paid what is the hurry?
> grin!
> but if you are a contractor by the mile... yea lack of speed kills your profits...
> and yea you have a time from point to point in there too...
> rough job for sure!


 I'm a UPS employee, not contractor. Paid by mile. I drive (LNG)Liquified Natural Gas. Though I am told we have some CNG, compressed natural gas, tractors that can run long range, none of the drivers I have encountered so far have one. UPS, hubs with natural gas are typically set-up for one or the other, CNG or LNG. Both suck for power. That's primarily why I am choosing propane over natural gas for a generator fuel. It's a pet peeve after being neutered all day on LNG. Propane is going to offer less power still than gasoline but it's still better than natural gas. I do confess that I don't miss the diesel fumes.

Gold, I don't have the time to trouble shoot this. When I built my new PC, it didn't work properly so I had to trouble shoot it. Turns out the new mother board, was defective. I have to rebuild it and hope that was indeed the case. I have too many projects, some I have not listed, and not enough time.


----------



## iowagold

is there a turbo on the truck?
yea they have the fuel turned down...
lol buy the shop guy his favorite scotch...
grin.
it might work!
darn epa is getting things too lean....
natural gas if done right is good fuel..
same on LP.
but it is tricky for cars and trucks...
you have to pre heat it just right before it goes BOOM!
same in intake air needs to be warm.

we do injection for the natural gas..
passes any epa with flying colors.
and as it is computer controlled it can be changed for operation conditions if the proper fuel map is done.

sorry to hear your contract is by the mile......
i bet there are fines for speed with ups as well now...
all that track and tell stuff on the new trucks...
these days by the hour works better with all the shortage of dock help.
unless you are drop and grab.
then you still have dot hours rules...
been there done that!


----------



## Texas T

Think I found my problem. I blew into each of the two hoses and one of them had a free flow and the other was constrained/blocked. Was more evident with throttle open. Thought it was pinched so pulled the carb …. Again. Everything looked good so I removed the snorkel. One side was still obstructed when I blew into it. Pretty quick to check without talking carb off to see so may be worth a try for you.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> is there a turbo on the truck?
> yea they have the fuel turned down...
> lol buy the shop guy his favorite scotch...
> grin.
> it might work!
> 
> 
> sorry to hear your contract is by the mile......


 Ahhh, the good ole days. Can't get truck turned up now. It's all computer control and the company management monitors the diagnostics of the trucks. Mechanic turns up truck, get's fired.

Mileage pay at UPS is the better than hourly pay.

I see these Powerhorse 27000 watt gens have went up by $300. You can get them though. A lot of stuff is back ordered months, the standby stuff. I figured I had time after the ice storms to get a generator in place, but got caught a day without power after tornado damaged lines behind my subdivision. I got caught because I was foolin with his conversion kit.

Once I get it all set-up, I'll figure it out if someone else hasn't. You know during hurricane Katrina, they turned the natural gas off? Special case I know but I haven't forgotten. The recent cyber attack reminded me the conventional supply chains can get shut off. So a working tri-fuel conversion kit is a must for this big guzzler.

Since Texas T is having the same problems as I, I will call U.S. Carb tomorrow and mention the trouble shooting he did. I too, when I tested was able to crank it at 8 turns and hitting the primer, but it didn't stay running either.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Think I found my problem. I blew into each of the two hoses and one of them had a free flow and the other was constrained/blocked. Was more evident with throttle open. Thought it was pinched so pulled the carb …. Again. Everything looked good so I removed the snorkel. One side was still obstructed when I blew into it. Pretty quick to check without talking carb off to see so may be worth a try for you.


 So you have it running? Still 8 turns?


----------



## Texas T

No, I did not want to attempt to clear anything in the snorkel or they could have questioned whether I had caused the damage. I have a message into their technical support now.


----------



## iowagold

it may need more turns in or out depending on your exact pressure in to the demand regulator...
i use a digital gauge for the pressure...
11-13 wc works the best.
and there is a port on the demand regulator for the gauge.

yea watch for kinking if the hoses to the snorkel!
BIG sweeping turns!

or use hard line for greater than 40 deg to 90 deg turns...
that hose does not like bends... it will collapse on you.
you can use that new bendable brake line to make hard sweeping line turns.
or go fancy with copper and freeze water inside to make it hold form during the forming.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Think I found my problem. I blew into each of the two hoses and one of them had a free flow and the other was constrained/blocked. Was more evident with throttle open. Thought it was pinched so pulled the carb …. Again. Everything looked good so I removed the snorkel. One side was still obstructed when I blew into it. Pretty quick to check without talking carb off to see so may be worth a try for you.


 I blew into each side. Both seem to have equal flow, no blockage. Contacted U.S. Carb to see if we can sort it out.


----------



## iowagold

check to see if the hoses are tight bends.
snap some pix for us!


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> check to see if the hoses are tight bends.
> snap some pix for us!


No knicks. However got home today and red regulator near tank was leaking propane. Garage smelled of propane.






Can’t even test now


----------



## tabora

Bulldogger said:


> Can’t even test now


In that picture it looks like your load block is completely shut off? My flow adjustment bolt looks like this:


----------



## Bulldogger

tabora said:


> In that picture it looks like your load block is completely shut off? My flow adjustment bolt looks like





tabora said:


> In that picture it looks like your load block is completely shut off? My flow adjustment bolt looks like this:
> View attachment 9387


 Ignore that. That's only in that picture. Trust me, that load block has been at just about ever possible position. This kit is untested. So far, I don't think anyone has gotten it to work. U.S Carb has only sold 2 or 3. If it's 2, then both guys are here and neither of us have gotten it to work.


----------



## Texas T

US carb sent me a new snorkel in two days. Noticed the difference right away even in the stiffness of the main body and the straightness of the snorkel ends. Easy to blow through on both sides. Installed tonight, 8 turns and it is running well. Will do a load test tonight or tomorrow to fine tune it. 
Hopefully the leak in the propane was your issue. 
Couple of things that I dials that I found helpful. I installed the snorkel with the tips at the top of the carb. Not sure that the Choke will work but don’t care. I removed the Carberator and assembled off of the generator. This allowed me to open up the throttle to check the positioning. I had my wife help me hold the assemble together as I secured it to the generator. Keeping my fingers crossed for you my friend!


----------



## iowagold

is that teflon tape rated for LP?
looks like the cheap stuff for water.
pm me for the right sealers for those connections.
is should be harvey seal for lp and ng...
also i question why only one demand regulator on a Vtwin...
what is the engine size?
and what are the exact stamped numbers on the demand regulator?


----------



## Texas T

One more thing, was looking at your pictures. Some regulators need to have the bellows facing up and in your picture it was facing down. Not sure but hey, easy enough to try.


----------



## tabora

Bulldogger said:


> Can’t even test now


What's the green item in front of the demand regulator? I only have a single pressure regulator at the tank before the demand regulator.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> US carb sent me a new snorkel in two days. Noticed the difference right away even in the stiffness of the main body and the straightness of the snorkel ends. Easy to blow through on both sides. Installed tonight, 8 turns and it is running well. Will do a load test tonight or tomorrow to fine tune it.
> Hopefully the leak in the propane was your issue.
> Couple of things that I dials that I found helpful. I installed the snorkel with the tips at the top of the carb. Not sure that the Choke will work but don’t care. I removed the Carberator and assembled off of the generator. This allowed me to open up the throttle to check the positioning. I had my wife help me hold the assemble together as I secured it to the generator. Keeping my fingers crossed for you my friend!


 That’s the way I originally had it installed, in top which makes choke difficult but would seem to allow more flow. Now I’m going to have to reinstall . See it’s your fault with dat choke stuff😀. I changed it to make choke work.


----------



## Texas T

Well at least you will be well practiced 😉 . I think I could do it blindfolded at this point. Gave up on the choke working after the last try. 
So have to share that we got hit by bad storms tonight and …. Power went out. Generator is getting its first true test and working well.


----------



## iowagold

good job texas t!
glad you are up!
hope your damage is not too bad.
stay safe down there!


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> Well at least you will be well practiced 😉 . I think I could do it blindfolded at this point. Gave up on the choke working after the last try.
> So have to share that we got hit by bad storms tonight and …. Power went out. Generator is getting its first true test and working well.


 Can of starting fluid will solve choke issue if the generator ever will not start with gasoline. I've had a lot of practice now too but all is well that ends well. U.S Carb is a pretty good company. They provided support and replaced parts quickly. That replacement regulator is already in the mail.

Glad your gen is working for your first outage. Mine was all taken apart when my last outage happened.


----------



## Bulldogger

tabora said:


> What's the green item in front of the demand regulator? I only have a single pressure regulator at the tank before the demand regulator.
> View attachment 9388


 I believe that green regulator is to help prevent the propane from freezing in cold weather. Also, I said I planned to use a 100 pound tank so assumed I was sent parts for that. You are the second person to ask. When I was at propane supply company, the owner pulled the kit up on the website and asked me why was the green regulator used. I think that's it and it can be a problem. When UPS first started running LNG tractors, the first generation Kenworth tractors lines would freeze at the tank. I'd start losing power or shut down and have to pull over and chip the ice block away from the valve to get the flow back started. So that's a concern of mine, keeping the propane lines open in cold weather.

I checked the website and the kit says, for engines above 20hp so that could be another reason. MFI PGK-12 - MFI PGK-12 (Recommended for engines above 20HP) - Motorsnorkel by US Carburetion


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> is that teflon tape rated for LP?
> looks like the cheap stuff for water.
> pm me for the right sealers for those connections.
> is should be harvey seal for lp and ng...
> also i question why only one demand regulator on a Vtwin...
> what is the engine size?
> and what are the exact stamped numbers on the demand regulator?


 Gold, my original plan was to get everything installed, tested and working in one day. The bracket we are using, I actually thought of that too but Home Depot didn't have the parts. My fence needed repair after Katrina, so I'm am familiar with fence parts. The bracket is actual for the top rail. I didn't see it at Home Depot either. Thanks Texas T for pointing me to Lowes for bracket.

With the plan to get this working in one day, I just grabbed the first tape I had. U.S Carb sent the proper pipe thread sealant with the kit but I misplaced it. Another thing I learned from a plumber after hurricane Katrina was to mix up some dish soap and water in a sprayer to leak test gas lines. After I got the kit installed, I sprayed the carb and all fittings to check for leaks. I didn't have any. However, I will heed your advice. I'm sure the propane supply company will have the proper sealant. I'll get some when I buy a larger tank at the end of next week.

Gold, the engine is 999cc. From my conversations, with U.S Carb, I believe this kit is based upon what is working from a similar sized Generac 17500 watt which off the top of my head I believe is 993cc.


----------



## Texas T

Thanks. Just lots of lightning and the power was back up in The morning,

I found US carb was very responsive as well. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the new regulator will fix your problem and the next outage you will be sitting watching the storm with your frozen margarita


----------



## drmerdp

Just for the record, any pipe sealant in a paste is acceptable. Do not use Teflon tape.

I was one of the first people to buy and install us carbs eu7000 kit and had a snorkel that was a bit bulky and didn’t fit well. They replaced it quickly and without and fuss or shipping charges.

Are you guys gapping your spark plugs correctly? It needs to be tight… 0.020 if using copper. Iridium is much better and I keep them tight to about 0.024.

Red regulators drop pressure to about 10psi. Green regulators then drop pressure to about 9-11“ water column. The KN has a maximum inlet pressure of about 15” WC.

The typical grill tank regulator that’s a silver color cannot supply the necessary volume of gas for a 999cc engine at a low pressure, so that would explain 2 stages of pressure regulation… high and low. If you buy a cheap amazon monometer you can measure and confirm adequate inlet pressure at the KN demand regulator.


----------



## SpringTX

Texas T said:


> Thanks. Just lots of lightning and the power was back up in The morning,
> 
> I found US carb was very responsive as well. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the new regulator will fix your problem and the next outage you will be sitting watching the storm with your frozen margarita



Texas T. You must be very close to my location @ Houston TX. We had lots of lightning last night. just wondering where are you at in Texas? maybe we can storm brain together over the those Margaritas ( I prefer Beer LOL) and help me with my Natural Gas conversion for my 27000 generator. If you are close to where live. I got my generator in April just before I got deployed to AZ and didn't have the chance to play with it till now. I'm looking to convert mine to natural Gas.


----------



## Bulldogger

Texas T said:


> I ordered my kit yesterday and going with natural gas as that is available. Trying to figure out hose length based on 3/4 inch. Hoping to be able to use 10ft but the things I have read say that would support a 28 horsepower motor and I think this one may be 30 or in the low 30’s but that is my best guess. Looking forward to seeing your results


 3/4 hose worked with your natural gas set-up? Did you stick with 10ft? I have to get a larger propane tank to retry. U.S carb seem to think a large part of my problem is trying to run an engine this size with a single 20 pound propane thank.


----------



## Bulldogger

One side of my original snorkel had less flow than it should have, felt like about half when I blew into it. The second one had equal flow to each side. However, I'm not sure how much this was really my issue. I went to a local propane shop and purchased another regulator, the small one that goes nearest the tank, high pressure guy said. The second one U.S Carbs sent as a replacement leaked at the crimps. First one leaked at small vent hole. The local propane shop checked it out. I could immediately tell the difference. I could hear the propane flowing and hear it when I primed the demand regulator. 5 turns, and generator started immediately. I adjusted it to about 5 and 1/4 turns. Seems to run exactly at 60.00 Hz according to display. With large shop vac and "chop saw" going, frequency dipped to 59.7.


----------



## Bulldogger

This is right size hose to make the oil easier to drain. Drainzit Oil Drain Hose — 14mm Port, Model# HON1014-C.DRA | Northern Tool


----------



## Bulldogger

Finally got around to load testing this generator. With 25 gallon propane tank, it's able to run everything except 4 ton central air. Noticed frequency is 58.6 to 58.8 on Propane. Ran same test on gasoline. Easily started and ran 4ton AC, no soft start , Pool pump using 1600 watts, upright freezer and separate fridge, treadmill on max, and every light in house, LEDs.

On gasoline, the frequency is between 59.99 and 60hz with everything on. It's beautiful on gasoline but choking with propane. Line too small on tank or propane just not enough "energy" BTU to make it happen? When I was trying to get tri-fuel kit working, I put throttle spring in wrong position which cause generator frequency to be 62hz on gasoline. I am thinking that setting would likely produce a better frequency on propane but not sure if that alone would solve engine "bogging down" under heaviest load with propane? Suggestion?
.


----------



## pipe

Bulldogger said:


> .. With 25 gallon propane tank, it's able to run everything except 4 ton central air.


Down south one of our homes equipped with 48,000 BTU's in Mitsubishi Hyperheat heatpumps use less than 2,000 watts of power (honda eu7000isnan)... this on a 92 F day and inside house setpoint is 68 F -- temperature is easily maintained and the honda is running at low speed circa 2,400 rpm in eco mode.


----------



## Bulldogger

pipe said:


> Down south one of our homes equipped with 48,000 BTU's in Mitsubishi Hyperheat heatpumps use less than 2,000 watts of power (honda eu7000isnan)... this on a 92 F day and inside house setpoint is 68 F -- temperature is easily maintained and the honda is running at low speed circa 2,400 rpm in eco mode.


 I'm not interested in an inverter generator. Wrong thread. Thanks. My home doesn't have one of those. It's a consideration for the future though. How much are those heat pumps units installed, 15K?


----------



## pipe

Bulldogger said:


> How much are those heat pumps units installed, 15K?


Paid $1,300 for each 12,000 (1 ton) unit, 4 in total/4 separate zones cooled. No installation cost for me (DIY).


----------



## Bulldogger

pipe said:


> Paid $1,300 for each 12,000 (1 ton) unit, 4 in total/4 separate zones cooled. No installation cost for me (DIY).


 The topic has come up for me before. I considered it for a bonus room addition because they can be very quiet. But the kind you are talking about for that price and DIY, I don't find aesthetically pleasing. The cassette type is nice looking. Appraiser says, it would lower value of my house. AC guy says they are hard to get repaired and no one in my area knows how. Better to stay with conventional. Guys on internet say ignore all that, it's not true  and do it.. Afraid, I'll stick to conventional. I wouldn't not go to all electric regardless. Natural gas is more stable in my area for heat during winter ice storms.

All my wife wanted to know was if my test successfully powered one of our AC units. I tried to start the second one, but it was too much even on gas. One is 3.5 tons and the other 4tons. I see that someone in New Orleans where we are from but do not live now, was able to power their entire home with this generator during hurricane Ida. This is not surprising. It's fantastic generator on gasoline. I'm still figuring out if propane is going to work and if it's possible to produce a stable 60Hz like it does with gasoline. If it does, for the 3K it cost last year, it's looking like a great deal. So far, I'm very happy with the purchase.

My utility company, Entergy does AC and heating and cooling "tune-ups," for free. I'm due for my heating tune up. I'll have the guy put on a soft start, that's not free, on at least one the AC units. I'll try again to see if the generator can start one AC and run it with other stuff in house on with propane then. The jump capacitor/soft start or whatever it's called seems like a good idea.

I do plan to pick up an inverter generator in next few months for some summer family outdoor events.


----------



## drmerdp

So you don’t have soft starts on either of your AC units? That’s clearly the next move.


----------



## FlyFisher

Bulldogger said:


> With 25 gallon propane tank, it's able to run everything except 4 ton central air. Noticed frequency is 58.6 to 58.8 on Propane.


Re the frequency first:

When I was setting up my small rotary on Natural Gas I loaded it with between 700-800 watts (small heater) and checked frequency with an Oscilloscope. I tuned the throttle so the frequency was right about 61hz. This helped the power output through the range. On low loads the frequency would be up a bit, but the bigger issue is the sag on the higher loads - hence where I tuned it.

Your throttle should have a similar screw adjustment. If you have a way to hit it with a continuous medium/heavy load (a few space heaters maybe on that unit - if you can get several thousand watts on it to drag it down that would be great - but that big of a gen is going to take a LOT to drag down) then you should be able to dial in the RPM/frequency. At your "medium to heavy" load you should be in the low 60's on frequency. You should easily be able to achieve that.

The spring tension is what the governor is regulated on - there is a balance between the centrifugal force of the governor and the throttle spring. That balance is your running RPM - hence why when the load hits the engine the throttle is opened - the governor is working to meet that balance and if its slow it needs to speed up.

I can't imagine there not being a screw adjustment on the spring. Every spring is slightly different and will wear differently over time so that adjustment should be there to tune when servicing.

Propane will have a bit less power than gasoline and natural gas will have a bit less power than propane.

As to the AC -

What happens when the AC tries to start? Does it kill the generator immediately?

I don't have any issues on the 15kw with NG and our central AC, it doesn't lug one bit. So I find it strange yours doesn't run. We do not have a "soft start".
--------------------------------------------
Edit -

The engine on the 18kw is a pretty big engine - probably bigger than the 15kw we have (Honda GX690 v-twin). If you have a "demand regulator" on there with a load block it is entirely possible that your draw on that gas circuit through the demand reg is too much. Do you have an up-stream pressure reg to knock the propane pressure down to about 1/2 PSI or so (14in WC)? Or is your demand reg what you are relying on? If you have an upstream pressure reg you may try taking it out to test and use a ball valve as a load block and manual shut off.

Truth be told - on NG with the 15kw I am running I have taken the demand reg out and replaced it with a powered ball valve as the "safety shut off"*. Then there is another manual ball valve that is the "load block". On Propane the demand reg I have works, on NG I think our pressure is too low. In any event - with the demand reg out of the circuit it runs everything just fine. As I said - it doesn't miss a beat with the central AC hitting it. When we ran it last summer or fall when I was working on it I had to go around to the AC unit to tell it was actually running. There wasn't enough lag in the generator to tell if it had tried to start or was running.

_*The valve is motorized, not solenoid - 2 wire, 12vDC+ to turn on, remove power to close. There is an AC power wall wart that holds the power on the valve if the gen is running. then there is a switch to put power on the starter battery to open the valve to start. Once running the valve power comes off the gen so if the gen stops the valve closes to shut off the gas. 








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EHCO TECH M21BV-1-C2AW MOTORIZED BALL VALVE. 1" NPT (female) inlet / outlet ports. 6 month warranty on all motorized ball valves. Visual valve position indicator. 300mA max current draw (<30mA when held in open position).



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_
With that having been said - again I find it really odd your unit won't get your AC going - and it is a bigger generator with Propane having more energy than our NG.
-----------------------------------------------------

However, the small rotary would bonk with "heavier" loads immediately until I tuned it better. Though, to be fair - on NG that little generator is very "light". But it does highlight the affect tuning it has.

Example of the throttle adjustment screw on my small rotary:


----------



## iowagold

Bulldogger said:


> Finally got around to load testing this generator. With 25 gallon propane tank, it's able to run everything except 4 ton central air. Noticed frequency is 58.6 to 58.8 on Propane. Ran same test on gasoline. Easily started and ran 4ton AC, no soft start , Pool pump using 1600 watts, upright freezer and separate fridge, treadmill on max, and every light in house, LEDs.
> 
> On gasoline, the frequency is between 59.99 and 60hz with everything on. It's beautiful on gasoline but choking with propane. Line too small on tank or propane just not enough "energy" BTU to make it happen? When I was trying to get tri-fuel kit working, I put throttle spring in wrong position which cause generator frequency to be 62hz on gasoline. I am thinking that setting would likely produce a better frequency on propane but not sure if that alone would solve engine "bogging down" under heaviest load with propane? Suggestion?
> .


yea check the line regulator and the load block.
what were the temps outside when you tested?

was that 25 gallon lp tank new?
they might not to have purged the air out of the tank properly...

one of the tricks we use here is to pull a vac on the tank for 3 hours just like you would for an air con system.
then fill direct 
we have a custom manifold system we use for the purge.
so no chance of moisture or other gasses if it is not already in the LP.

so are you liquid right up to the gen set??
or are you regulated to 13wc right on the tank?
if you are 13 wc on the tank you need a large set of fittings as well as large ID on the hoses...
and watch the btu on the tank reg... it needs to be 25% more than the rated demand for the gen sets horsepower by the charts.

do you have a gauge set to check the regulators?

pm if you need direct help on this.


----------



## GenKnot

FlyFisher said:


> The valve is motorized, not solenoid - 2 wire, 12vDC+ to turn on, remove power to close. There is an AC power wall wart that holds the power on the valve if the gen is running. then there is a switch to put power on the starter battery to open the valve to start. Once running the valve power comes off the gen so if the gen stops the valve closes to shut off the gas.


@FlyFisher I think you accidently linked to the wrong valve. That link takes you to a valve that is normally open (de-energize to open the valve).
Here is an example of a normally closed valve...








U.S. Solid 1" NPT Motorized Ball Valve N/C 9V 12V 24V AC/DC 2-Wire Brass 888107083528 | eBay


U.S. Solid Motorized Ball Valve. Thread size NPT 1". Valve body material Brass. Here is only an example. There are many other possible ways to wire this ball valve. Before making any electrical connections, make sure the power is off.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> Re the frequency first:
> 
> When I was setting up my small rotary on Natural Gas I loaded it with between 700-800 watts (small heater) and checked frequency with an Oscilloscope. I tuned the throttle so the frequency was right about 61hz. This helped the power output through the range. On low loads the frequency would be up a bit, but the bigger issue is the sag on the higher loads - hence where I tuned it.
> 
> Your throttle should have a similar screw adjustment. If you have a way to hit it with a continuous medium/heavy load (a few space heaters maybe on that unit - if you can get several thousand watts on it to drag it down that would be great - but that big of a gen is going to take a LOT to drag down) then you should be able to dial in the RPM/frequency. At your "medium to heavy" load you should be in the low 60's on frequency. You should easily be able to achieve that.
> 
> The spring tension is what the governor is regulated on - there is a balance between the centrifugal force of the governor and the throttle spring. That balance is your running RPM - hence why when the load hits the engine the throttle is opened - the governor is working to meet that balance and if its slow it needs to speed up.
> 
> I can't imagine there not being a screw adjustment on the spring. Every spring is slightly different and will wear differently over time so that adjustment should be there to tune when servicing.
> 
> Propane will have a bit less power than gasoline and natural gas will have a bit less power than propane.
> 
> As to the AC -
> 
> What happens when the AC tries to start? Does it kill the generator immediately?
> 
> I don't have any issues on the 15kw with NG and our central AC, it doesn't lug one bit. So I find it strange yours doesn't run. We do not have a "soft start".
> --------------------------------------------
> Edit -
> 
> The engine on the 18kw is a pretty big engine - probably bigger than the 15kw we have (Honda GX690 v-twin). If you have a "demand regulator" on there with a load block it is entirely possible that your draw on that gas circuit through the demand reg is too much. Do you have an up-stream pressure reg to knock the propane pressure down to about 1/2 PSI or so (14in WC)? Or is your demand reg what you are relying on? If you have an upstream pressure reg you may try taking it out to test and use a ball valve as a load block and manual shut off.
> 
> Truth be told - on NG with the 15kw I am running I have taken the demand reg out and replaced it with a powered ball valve as the "safety shut off"*. Then there is another manual ball valve that is the "load block". On Propane the demand reg I have works, on NG I think our pressure is too low. In any event - with the demand reg out of the circuit it runs everything just fine. As I said - it doesn't miss a beat with the central AC hitting it. When we ran it last summer or fall when I was working on it I had to go around to the AC unit to tell it was actually running. There wasn't enough lag in the generator to tell if it had tried to start or was running.
> 
> _*The valve is motorized, not solenoid - 2 wire, 12vDC+ to turn on, remove power to close. There is an AC power wall wart that holds the power on the valve if the gen is running. then there is a switch to put power on the starter battery to open the valve to start. Once running the valve power comes off the gen so if the gen stops the valve closes to shut off the gas.
> http://[URL][URL][URL]https://www.e...7l%2BFxEzw%3D%3D|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBMhMjbwcJf[/URL][/URL][/URL]_
> 
> With that having been said - again I find it really odd your unit won't get your AC going - and it is a bigger generator with Propane having more energy than our NG.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> However, the small rotary would bonk with "heavier" loads immediately until I tuned it better. Though, to be fair - on NG that little generator is very "light". But it does highlight the affect tuning it has.
> 
> Example of the throttle adjustment screw on my small rotary:
> 
> View attachment 10740


 Thanks. First step is to get the frequency correct. I

The engine lugs on propane when I start AC. No soft starts yet. With 27000 surge watts I figured I didn't need one. Well, I don't need one with gasoline. The generator doesn't blink. I suspect the line I'm using is too small from the propane tank. I'm using the kit from U.S carbs to test except I replaced the red regulator with an adjustable one from propane dealer.






This is stuff I am using to test. I have a 120 gallon propane tank that will be used with this regulator 1.5 million BTU






on tank in as well as the other regulators from U.S Carbs


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> So you don’t have soft starts on either of your AC units? That’s clearly the next move.


 With 27000 watts starting I should not need them. Don't with gasoline. I may not with propane once I figure out why engine is lugging. Soft start not much of an additional expense so I'll add.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> yea check the line regulator and the load block.
> what were the temps outside when you tested?
> 
> was that 25 gallon lp tank new?
> they might not to have purged the air out of the tank properly...
> 
> one of the tricks we use here is to pull a vac on the tank for 3 hours just like you would for an air con system.
> then fill direct
> we have a custom manifold system we use for the purge.
> so no chance of moisture or other gasses if it is not already in the LP.
> 
> so are you liquid right up to the gen set??
> or are you regulated to 13wc right on the tank?
> if you are 13 wc on the tank you need a large set of fittings as well as large ID on the hoses...
> and watch the btu on the tank reg... it needs to be 25% more than the rated demand for the gen sets horsepower by the charts.
> 
> do you have a gauge set to check the regulators?
> 
> pm if you need direct help on this.


 Temp 75 degrees, new purged propane tank, 10-foot line. this tank regulator 320k btu Cavagna Kosan 75-C-590-1005 HP Adustable 0-15 PSI 1/4" Straight Through Propane Regulator (propane-regulators.com) . I need to get some new bigger ID hose to go with my big 1,500,000 btu first stage regulator that I purchased for my 120-gallon tank. The guy that purged the tank said he had a lot of experience doing it. He filled it to the max rating. I believe it's a fuel supply problem.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> do the math by the HP of the engine for the hose and pipe.
> and remember the rules on fittings for reducing flow.


 Missed this, lol.


----------



## drmerdp

Since your gasoline running test came up short for running both AC units the soft starts should resolve it. As for the propane running issue. A 999cc engine is approximately 35hp. So your fuel supply needs to accommodate a ~350,000btu demand.

By the looks of your regulators and hose I can’t image you are low on supply volume unless the 25gallon tank can’t keep up. Was the tank beginning to frost? What’s ratings of your green regulator? And have you tried running the AC with your 129gallon tank as the fuel source?

Stupid question…are you sure your load block setting isn’t too lean?


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Since your gasoline running test came up short for running both AC units the soft starts should resolve it. As for the propane running issue. A 999cc engine is approximately 35hp. So your fuel supply needs to accommodate a ~350,000btu demand.
> 
> By the looks of your regulators and hose I can’t image you are low on supply volume unless the 25gallon tank can’t keep up. Was the tank beginning to frost? What’s ratings of your green regulator? And have you tried running the AC with your 129gallon tank as the fuel source?
> 
> Stupid question…are you sure your load block setting isn’t too lean?


 Only ever running one AC during summer outage and no pool pump. Pool pump would only run during hard freeze and then would need to power central heat. Central heat and pool pump ran fine so I'd be good for winter freeze on propane. I have a three-car garage and opened all three doors at same time with heat on, treadmill going, fridge and separate freezer, and all lights on interior and 12 exterior flood lamps all LED. No problem on propane. 3.5-ton AC, problem. The green regulator is rated for 1.4 million btu. I did adjust load block. After about an hour, the tank was sweating ever so slightly. No freezing anywhere. I was looking for that.

No, I haven't tried the 120 gallon tank yet. It's in the back yard.by gen shed. My plan is to have two 120 gallon tanks.

As much load as I placed upon the generator while on propane, the soft start on the AC I plan to run during a summer outage might fix my issue. Maybe adjusting pressure upward on 1st tank regulator my help?


----------



## FlyFisher

drmerdp said:


> Stupid question…are you sure your load block setting isn’t too lean?


That is a good point. 

It should be a bit rich.

That goes back to the tuning-under-load I mentioned with the RPM tune to get the frequency right - the load block should be tuned likewise - under load.

As to the question of whether a soft-start is needed or not - that's up to who's set up it is and what their thoughts/beliefs are. What I can say for certain is on my 15kw rotary (3600 RPM with a Honda GX690 engine) - with the fuel line/system plumbing we have it will start and run our central AC unit with very little lugging - and that is without a soft-start. 

Two things to take in to consideration with the above statement:
1. Natural Gas has less energy than either Propane or Gasoline. So in theory - the available wattage of the generator "should" be a good bit less than either Propane or Gasoline. That means that hard loads "should" get the engine to lug a lot more noticeable on Natural Gas. That isn't our experience.

2. The "demand regulator" is bypassed on my set up on NG. The connection near the meter is 1". Then I down-size to 3/4" flex pipe. I want to say the pipe is 30-35 feet in a coil. It is never permanently installed, so the pipe gets unrolled and rolled up. In any event - my point is the gas line "system" is no where near ideal - and we still have plenty of power.

With as big of a generator as is in question - the issue surely is in the availability of fuel to the gen. It might have enough to get the engine running and tuned with light loads, but what is happening under heavy load demands?

Several on here have suggested getting a Manometer to measure gas pressures. That would be a handy tool, though it might take a lot to get ports/fittings hooked in to your gas line set up from which to take your pressure readings while things are running.


----------



## FlyFisher

GenKnot said:


> @FlyFisher I think you accidently linked to the wrong valve. That link takes you to a valve that is normally open (de-energize to open the valve).
> Here is an example of a normally closed valve...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Solid 1" NPT Motorized Ball Valve N/C 9V 12V 24V AC/DC 2-Wire Brass 888107083528 | eBay
> 
> 
> U.S. Solid Motorized Ball Valve. Thread size NPT 1". Valve body material Brass. Here is only an example. There are many other possible ways to wire this ball valve. Before making any electrical connections, make sure the power is off.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


You are correct. You would need a normally closed valve. I went back in my emails to find the valve details but when I tried to get to the link it wanted me to sign in so instead of signing in I went to the search bar and went through the listings again. That is the same valve, just the normally open version, not normally closed. 

Here is the normally closed version  < link

It appears the price went up $6 too. Imagine that. Thanks Obiden.


----------



## GenKnot

FlyFisher said:


> Several on here have suggested getting a Manometer to measure gas pressures. That would be a handy tool...


If OP wants a quick DIY manometer, he could always make one...


----------



## GenKnot

Oh, and besides using the manometer to measure your pressure, they are handy at verifying you have no leaks.

With gen not running, shut off gas valve at source and see if the manometer stays put over time. If it doesn't, you have a leak.


----------



## drmerdp

I like those motorized ball valves. No heat and very low power consumption. My specific circumstances require a solenoid valve instead due to the cycling off time.


----------



## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> You are correct. You would need a normally closed valve. I went back in my emails to find the valve details but when I tried to get to the link it wanted me to sign in so instead of signing in I went to the search bar and went through the listings again. That is the same valve, just the normally open version, not normally closed.
> 
> Here is the normally closed version  < link
> 
> It appears the price went up $6 too. Imagine that. Thanks Obiden.


 U.S carbs advised me to use something like this if I wanted to add a remote start to my generator to shut off propane. Have not investigated if it's even possible for remote start yet. 

I don't recall a throttle adjustment like one in your picture. This engine ain't a Honda. I don't see one in the pictures I or Texas T took either. Don't see any adjustment when I looked at it with my flashlight. But I do recall moving the spring on throttle increased frequency to 62Hz on gasoline under load. I had it incorrectly positioned. When I moved it back to correct position, I'm getting a steady 60Hz with generator on gasoline.

This 4/4 Carol SOOW generator cord is heavy. Need to figure that out too. Carrying around 110 pounds of cord on shoulder is getting old. What kind of reel can handle a line that heavy?


----------



## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> If OP wants a quick DIY manometer, he could always make one...
> 
> View attachment 10744


 I don't think I'll need to build one. The first stage regulator is adjustable. I'm going to adjust to higher pressure, and I bet that is the issue. It's rated high enough btu but I'm guess that rating is at max pressure, all the way open. When I bought the 1st stage regulator, the older gentleman 80's I'd guess, with decades of experience, assured me when I showed him my set-up that my my second stage regulator would not have any issues if I needed to use max pressure on the 1st stage. He sells the all the regulators I am using.


----------



## GenKnot

Bulldogger said:


> I don't recall a throttle adjustment like one in your picture. This engine ain't a Honda. I don't see one in the pictures I or Texas T took either. Don't see any adjustment when I looked at it with my flashlight. But I do recall moving the spring on throttle increased frequency to 62Hz on gasoline under load.


This should be your govenor adjustment...


----------



## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> This should be your govenor adjustment...
> View attachment 10745
> 
> 
> View attachment 10747


 I'll check. This is that assembly. Disregard the blue arrow. The screw you are pointing to is on the opposite side.


----------



## GenKnot




----------



## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> View attachment 10751









Ok, I'll check it out.


----------



## FlyFisher

Bulldogger said:


> U.S carbs advised me to use something like this if I wanted to add a remote start to my generator to shut off propane. Have not investigated if it's even possible for remote start yet.


I have thought about that - but maybe later down the road. We don't have a generator permanently hooked up, nor do we plan to with any of the ones we have. I have tossed the idea around of a built-in unit, but until we get up around $20k in investment do we gain anything more than what we already have - namely a quieter unit in an enclosure with more convenience in running (already hooked up). 

That having been said, I would not want the electric valve as a primary valve - not by a long shot. You need a high quality, reliable ball valve ahead of anything else you might want to have in-line so you have a reliable way of shutting gas off, no matter what. When our gas hook up was upgraded I nit-picked the valve and explained to the plumber I wanted a high quality one. We got the same type of valve the shut off to the meter is - not sure it is the exact brand, but same style - with the lock-out tab. It takes a good size wrench to work it, but thats fine. 

Considering the set up isn't "installed", only hooked up when needed - I can't imagine leaving the big valve off the branch circuit on and having an electric valve out there weathering the whole time for the "what if" or "when" - and will it work? Or will it need to be pulled out of the plumbing? That might be a lot of work yanking a valve in the middle of the night in the rain when you're already frustrated with the power having gone out. Just something to think about. 

In our case - since generators aren't "hooked up, ready to go" its a bit of work no matter what. So I leave the electric valve on the portion of the gas line I coil up and stick in the garage then use unions on all connections to make the connections on both ends. The branch line off the meter gets a plug at the union so it is all "sealed" from the elements post-valve. Then I use the part of the union that removes to attach to the end of the flex line that goes to the generator and reattach it to hook it up. Its easy to do, but again - time. The main thing is keeping the plumbing reliable - and to that point the electric valves can fail. So having other manual valves is a must.


----------



## iowagold

Bulldogger said:


> U.S carbs advised me to use something like this if I wanted to add a remote start to my generator to shut off propane. Have not investigated if it's even possible for remote start yet.
> 
> I don't recall a throttle adjustment like one in your picture. This engine ain't a Honda. I don't see one in the pictures I or Texas T took either. Don't see any adjustment when I looked at it with my flashlight. But I do recall moving the spring on throttle increased frequency to 62Hz on gasoline under load. I had it incorrectly positioned. When I moved it back to correct position, I'm getting a steady 60Hz with generator on gasoline.
> 
> This 4/4 Carol SOOW generator cord is heavy. Need to figure that out too. Carrying around 110 pounds of cord on shoulder is getting old. What kind of reel can handle a line that heavy?


heavy shop hose reel works.
let me know if you need links.
you just need to unplug it to recoil first on the HD wire.
that twist thing.


----------



## iowagold

yea a 12 volt shut down sol valve for the LP is a good idea or a motor operated valve cracker.
they have those that will operate the tank valve.
and they have a clutch.


----------



## Bulldogger

Ok, opened up the adjustable 1st stage at tank regulator. Certainly, a big part of the issue. Engine still lugs with one AC at start up but does catch up and run it without pool pump on. Will test again after soft start installation. Before propane could not run AC at all even with pump off. Pool pump would not be on in summer at any rate. Also idles now at 59.8 to 60Hz on propane under heavy load. However, with gasoline no lugging at all, runs pool pump and AC on gasoline. This generator is perfect on gasoline. But gasoline?? Man, that's a hassle with as much as I would need.


----------



## drmerdp

Have you dialed in the load block setting with a heavy load applied?


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Have you dialed in the load block setting with a heavy load applied?


That was first thing I tried. Tried again with increased pressure. Will turn adjustment on second stage green regulator to increase pressure, next to see if that helps per U.S. carbs advice.


----------



## drmerdp

By load block I’m referring to the Garret KN demand regulator that’s mounted onto the side of the generator. Has that been adjusted since you first got the generator running on propane?


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> By load block I’m referring to the Garret KN demand regulator that’s mounted onto the side of the generator. Has that been adjusted since you first got the generator running on propane?


 Post 167&184


----------



## drmerdp

Bulldogger said:


> Post 167&184


Just confirming. A monometer tapped into the inlet port on the KN regulator would confirm adequate supply pressure.









Hti-Xintai Digital Manometer, Dual Port Air Pressure Meter Pressure Gauge HVAC Gas Tester, Large LCD Display with Backlight, Basic: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


Hti-Xintai Digital Manometer, Dual Port Air Pressure Meter Pressure Gauge HVAC Gas Tester, Large LCD Display with Backlight, Basic: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com





Are the hoses between the load block and snorkel as short as practical? 

Never hurts to reach out to US carb.


----------



## GenKnot

drmerdp said:


> By load block I’m referring to the Garret KN demand regulator that’s mounted onto the side of the generator. Has that been adjusted since you first got the generator running on propane?


drmerdp is referring to the adjustment on the demand regulator. It adjusts fuel/air ratio.


----------



## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> drmerdp is referring to the adjustment on the demand regulator. It adjusts fuel/air ratio.
> 
> View attachment 10815


Right, I answered twice. That happens quite a bit. Does no good to answer if the answers aren't read. You can't get it to crank if you don't know what that is and how to adjust.


----------



## Bulldogger

drmerdp said:


> Just confirming. A monometer tapped into the inlet port on the KN regulator would confirm adequate supply pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hti-Xintai Digital Manometer, Dual Port Air Pressure Meter Pressure Gauge HVAC Gas Tester, Large LCD Display with Backlight, Basic: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> Hti-Xintai Digital Manometer, Dual Port Air Pressure Meter Pressure Gauge HVAC Gas Tester, Large LCD Display with Backlight, Basic: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the hoses between the load block and snorkel as short as practical?
> 
> Never hurts to reach out to US carb.


 U.S carbs is trouble shooting. Iowagold post 180 on guages.


----------



## GenKnot

Bulldogger said:


> Right, I answered twice. That happens quite a bit. Does no good to answer if the answers aren't read.


Sorry, didn't mean to insult. The thread is getting so long it is hard to follow everything that has been done.


----------



## drmerdp

Bulldogger said:


> U.S carbs is trouble shooting. Iowagold post 180 on guages.


Yes, I know. Gauges were mentioned. I meant it as a gentle nudge. Troubleshooting is more effective when the critical details can be quantified.


----------



## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to insult. The thread is getting so long it is hard to follow everything that has been done.


 Oh, no insult taken. You've been very helpful. It's not you.

About 10 months or so ago, I started the conversion. The generator was new, and no kit existed. Texas T and I were able to get it working.

There were some issues. I installed and re-installed the snorkel several times but was unable to start. Changed orientation of snorkel, etc. I tried adjusting load block many times. Finally, Texas T discovered that the snorkel itself had a blockage. After a new snorkel was installed, still would not stay running but the hoses on snorkel were open. I discovered that the first stage regulator was bad and was sent another one. It leaked propane. Not wanting to wait for third one and desiring another brand, I went to a local shop and got one that immediately worked. It wasn't the tank size or needing to be purged as tech support originally guess. The generator fired up, 5 and a quarter turns and ran smoothly.

Now I am here several months later, load testing and discovered engine lugs on heaviest load on propane. U.S carbs is sending larger hoses, as this could be the issue as they don't really know what size hose this generator may need. The hoses that go from the demand regulator to the snorkel. I'll have to splice the larger hoses in. Once again, the tank is suspect, but I've tried another small older tank with same result, lugging under load, as the new tank.

Here's where I stand. I replaced the small tank regulator with the big Rego TR9 that I know is capable. I will attempt to adjust the second stage regulator to a higher pressure per U.S carbs. If that does not work, I may replace it. I'll install the larger hose when they arrive. Lastly, I'll make 100% sure I have a correctly sized and purged tank. Because that was not the issue last time, it still could be this time. U.S carbs believes it's the tank. It could be anything from the snorkel itself, hose size, or a bad regulator. I will again test the snorkel by blowing thru the hoses to make sure both sides are open. The kit that I was sent was created based upon a similar sized Generac generator. This generator has a large engine so it's being figured out with some experimentation.

The local propane shop does generator conversions. The guy there has a tank in bed of his pick-up truck and runs the truck off propane. I'm sure he'll be able to assist if I can't figure it out. He has gauges and can get a new regulator out of the shop if that's what it is.

Oh, I forgot, I was not able to test central air until I had a whole house manual transfer switch. With my set-up an interlock switch was not feasible That's why just now doing that Service Entrance Manual Transfer switch?? | Page 2 | Power Equipment Forum .


----------



## FlyFisher

As far as loosing power with higher loads - it all comes down to fuel volume. 

You have enough volume to supply the engine what it needs at no load up to light/medium load. But when you try to load heavy you don't have the volume.

What restricts volume (available at the demand) is the restriction in the fuel line. This is based on several criteria - diameter, bends, fittings, adapters, length, etc - on top of pressure. If you have light pressure then all of the previous mentioned factors will eventually cause the demand to starve of fuel once the demand gets too high - the restrictions tank the pressure too much as they are not able to deliver "enough fuel" (volume). 

The kicker is you can't have "high pressure" going in to the engine. You need low pressure, high volume. Therefore, to compensate for the volume demand in to the engine you need high pressure until the demand reg so that the fuel in front of the demand reg is "there" to be drawn from.

If your down-stream (of the demand reg) plumbing can't give you enough "volume" then it doesn't matter what the pressure is ahead of the demand reg (as long as the reg can handle it). 

If your down-stream (of the demand reg) plumbing CAN give you enough "volume" then your pressure up-stream of the demand reg matters. 

If you had a way to measure pressures that would really help - especially upstream of the demand reg. If you could do this then it would tell you if the plumbing downstream (to snorkels) was up to the task or not. If it was then you would see the upstream pressure (upstream of the demand reg) go below a pressure that would allow the reg to work. If the downstream (to snorkels) plumbing was not up to the task then the pressure ahead of the demand reg would be adequate. Again - a pressure meter/manometer would tell you this.

The above is why I took my demand reg out of the circuit on the big gen on NG for the time being - with the plumbing I have there is too much restriction through it for the engine to even run with no load. The small 2600w unit I have will run on it. Interesting thought here - I have not tried the small generator without the demand reg, just load block, but I would be curious to do that to see what the difference is - I'm sure it is a lot. ~5hp engine on the small gen, ~23hp engine on the big gen.


----------



## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> As far as loosing power with higher loads - it all comes down to fuel volume.
> 
> You have enough volume to supply the engine what it needs at no load up to light/medium load. But when you try to load heavy you don't have the volume.


 The engineer at U.S carbs believes that a fuel quality issue and not only volume is at play. That would cause the same result according to him. After discussing it with the lead tech further, there is no getting around the fact that my new tanks were not properly purged. The other tank I used to test is too small. I have to test with a properly purged at least 100-pound tank. I am following the steps the lead tech at U.S carbs and engineer are advising. The X factor here is that they have resolved these issues before. Really, I believe the advice to blow down the lines came from them. We were going in circles with the fixation on the load block adjustments. They knew their product. I don't believe we would have ever got generator started without their tech support.

I couldn't really take the demand regulator off with a propane generator. Really my goal is to be able to use at least two fuel sources. I am assuming the throttle adjustment was partly necessary because you don't have a demand regulator with your natural gas generator? You are optimized for that fuel. During hurricane Ida and Katrina many lost natural gas so I feel I need to be able to tap several fuel sources in my area and I only have a single generator.

As I increased pressure, I felt I no longer needed to be concerned with a throttle adjustment in my set-up for propane. I think the generator will maintain proper frequency with both fuels and no throttle adjustment. Because I increased pressure and the frequency stabilized at proper range for propane, U.S carbs is advising it's a fuel quality issue causing the lugging. The issue is too much air in fuel. They are also advising me how much to adjust the pressure on the second stage regulator to test that as well. Yeah, I know I can get gauges but based upon their experiences they are advising me to test these simple steps first which have solved these issues for others. It's quick easy and free. They are sending part, great company. I'm not that concerned. The generator is perfect on gasoline, and I'll use that as I sort this out. Thanks for the tips. I may need them later if the "quick" fixes don't work.


----------



## drmerdp

Bulldogger said:


> It's not you.


Gonna be like that huh.




FlyFisher said:


> The above is why I took my demand reg out of the circuit on the big gen on NG for the time being


Are you saying you’ve removed and are operating the generator without the Garret KN (or equivalent) regulator?


----------



## iowagold

yea valves and caps on the hoses are a great idea to hold in the gas charge on temp connections so you do not have to vent the gas to air after the first purge.
and is a real good idea on liquid lines and hoses to have valves at both ends to save the line charge.


----------



## FlyFisher

Bulldogger said:


> I am assuming the throttle adjustment was partly necessary because you don't have a demand regulator with your natural gas generator? You are optimized for that fuel. During hurricane Ida and Katrina many lost natural gas so I feel I need to be able to tap several fuel sources in my area and I only have a single generator.


To answer your assumption I'll make an assumption also. That said, this could really go down the toilet fast with all the assumptions 

That assumption being - by "throttle adjustment" you mean the load block to throttle the fuel. In that case, yes. The load block is highly dependent on the energy in the fuel. In my case, the demand reg is is not used at the moment on NG but it is on Propane. To be 100% honest, I have not load tested the 2 rotary generators (2600w, 15kw) on propane, other than a small space heater. So I am not sure how the demand plays with the propane delivery like what you are trying to do - whole house power. I haven't been too concerned on propane.

Also countering my own assumption in an effort to be thorough - there was some discussion somewhere a while ago about the physical "throttle"/governor on a generator. This was the small 2600w on natural gas. The reason I even made that adjustment was that the generator seemingly shut down with too light of a load - I felt it should do more so I got in to what it would take to get a bit more out of it. That is where the oscilloscope and governor adjustment came in - on natural gas I loaded it with between 700-800w from a heater then got the screw adjustment up a bit to about 61hz on the AC frequency. I don't recall how low it was before. In any event, the adjustment appears to have made a difference.

Technically speaking, the governor adjustment should not be necessary. That is a mechanical adjustment and should be independent of fuel quality/energy content (NG, propane, gasoline). 

As to the adjustment of the load block for natural gas or propane - if you are running through a demand regulator and have one load block this will have to be tuned with the switch as the setting is dependent on the fuel. I believe this is also why companies that have standby generators that can run on both fuels do not have a way to automate the switching of fuels. I have read that in other threads - where a homeowner doesn't want the hassle of tuning/adjusting/wrenching on their built-in generator to switch fuel, but is in the same fuel boat - they want the ability to use what ever fuel is available.

If you wanted to get "creative" - you could attempt to plumb with electronically controlled valves, or manual valves (more fail-safe with manual valves I would say) so you can "switch in" what fuel circuit you want - have one set on propane and one set on natural gas (if you have natural gas). That way if you have different components (demand regs, load blocks, hoses, what have you) and your tuning points are different for the different fuels, it might be just a matter of flipping a few valves on/off to switch fuels. 

In my case, personally, I don't mind the "rigging up" of what I am running. That makes things portable for me. Yeah, it is a lot of work to, say, hook up the 15kw as I have to wheel it around to where it hooks up, then hook it up. No matter how I do it I have to work with the large fuel line and wrenches. I absolutely did not want any "quick connect" for the fuel hook up - I went with unions and to block off the union on the line at the hook up I have a threaded plug. The reason for "no quick connects" is leaks. The unions and threaded connections are more robust. So at that point - what is the big deal of tuning for the fuel type? Everyone's situation is different, though. 



Bulldogger said:


> As I increased pressure, I felt I no longer needed to be concerned with a throttle adjustment in my set-up for propane. I think the generator will maintain proper frequency with both fuels and no throttle adjustment. Because I increased pressure and the frequency stabilized at proper range for propane, U.S carbs is advising it's a fuel quality issue causing the lugging. The issue is too much air in fuel. They are also advising me how much to adjust the pressure on the second stage regulator to test that as well. Yeah, I know I can get gauges but based upon their experiences they are advising me to test these simple steps first which have solved these issues for others. It's quick easy and free. They are sending part, great company. I'm not that concerned. The generator is perfect on gasoline, and I'll use that as I sort this out. Thanks for the tips. I may need them later if the "quick" fixes don't work.


The RPM/electrical frequency should stick - that is a mechanical adjustment. That should stick to the point of the fuel volume meeting the demand of the engine. If the fuel volume can't meet the demand then the RPM/frequency would drop down.

I'm in the same boat on a manometer - as of now I don't have one. I have been able to get around the issues I've had thus far. That having been said - it would have been really helpful to have one. I may go the route of making a water based one this season then see how things go. 

On a bit of an off-topic - I wonder if the fuel volume through the demand reg on the small gen on ng (it uses it on both fuels) is why it cuts off with much load. That wouldn't surprise me at all - and if I had a manometer it would be pretty easy to determine that - the gas pressure ahead of the demand reg would drop too low.


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## FlyFisher

drmerdp said:


> Are you saying you’ve removed and are operating the generator without the Garret KN (or equivalent) regulator?


Correct. The pressure reg at the meter is the only "regulator". From there the volume is adjusted at the gen with a load block. See above post. That is a temporary install, nothing is permanently installed. It is also why I have the electric ball valve - if the gen were to quit that would kill the power to the valve and close it.

Direct line is left of the reg. The "load block" is the yellow ball valve in that instance. 

The hose to the manifold can switch between the direct line and the demand reg up top. When I was working on it this day I had taken the load block out, but there is a load block that can go downstream of the demand reg to tune propane. 

There is a gas manifold that sits ahead of the carb, under the air cleaner box. I don't have the "snorkel" set up to shoot in to the two intakes, just one manifold that mixes the fuel with the intake air going to both cylinders.


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## GenKnot

I like your rig...very impressive, but too much for me!  



FlyFisher said:


> and if I had a manometer it would be pretty easy to determine that


You could make a $2 manometer (see post #170) and tee it into your rubber hose right after your hard pipe to take a reading.


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## drmerdp

Personally 


FlyFisher said:


> Correct. The pressure reg at the meter is the only "regulator". From there the volume is adjusted at the gen with a load block. See above post. That is a temporary install, nothing is permanently installed. It is also why I have the electric ball valve - if the gen were to quit that would kill the power to the valve and close it.
> 
> Direct line is left of the reg. The "load block" is the yellow ball valve in that instance.
> 
> The hose to the manifold can switch between the direct line and the demand reg up top. When I was working on it this day I had taken the load block out, but there is a load block that can go downstream of the demand reg to tune propane.
> 
> There is a gas manifold that sits ahead of the carb, under the air cleaner box. I don't have the "snorkel" set up to shoot in to the two intakes, just one manifold that mixes the fuel with the intake air going to both cylinders.
> 
> View attachment 10839


The demand regulators primary function is to be a safety valve where when engine vacuum disappears fuel flow stops. If you do not have enough NG volume from your demand regulator then you should look into a high flow rebuild kit for yours that uses a 1/2“ orifice. 

Personally I’d consider using the engine oil pressure switch as a fail safe trigger for the MBV. Either use the existing one or tee off the port and add a second.

How stiff does that polyethylene gas pipe get when the temps drop?


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## FlyFisher

drmerdp said:


> Personally
> 
> The demand regulators primary function is to be a safety valve where when engine vacuum disappears fuel flow stops. If you do not have enough NG volume from your demand regulator then you should look into a high flow rebuild kit for yours that uses a 1/2“ orifice.


I have 3 of these regs - put 2 on and have a third as a spare. However, that is a thought - I believe I can get higher flow regulators instead of modifying one.

I am also thinking the issue is overall low system pressure (from the service reg at the meter). When I was asking about the service there was an upgrade to 2psi, I believe. However, they would not adjust the pressure as-is (I want to say its 14in WC). If we did the 2psi upgrade there would have to be a step-down reg. We were told the proper way to do it would be a step-down reg at each appliance. That is too much work/too big of an upgrade.

We ran the numbers on the BTU's and if we max'ed out all the appliances we wouldn't have enough, looking at the numbers, for the big gen. However, we never max out the usage. The highest would be the furnace and water heater. And with a variable load on the gen - we're no where near max on that, either, at least for very long (start up on AC might be the only time). So we decided to try the port off the meter as-is.

Again, this would be a perfect question to answer with a manometer - if the pressure ahead of the demand reg is too low for the demand reg to work with the volume the engine is demanding then it doesn't matter what demand reg is used - unless there is a demand reg that can run at lower pressure, and supply adequate fuel volume, to the engine at lower pressure.



drmerdp said:


> Personally I’d consider using the engine oil pressure switch as a fail safe trigger for the MBV. Either use the existing one or tee off the port and add a second.


That is certainly an idea. It may be a quicker acting trigger - the winding down of the alternator and the discharge of the filter caps in the AC to 12v adapter delay the power cut off to the valve, but its not terrible.



drmerdp said:


> How stiff does that polyethylene gas pipe get when the temps drop?


Not sure off the top of my head what all the material is, but it is a metal pipe that is lined. I want to say it is aluminum. It is "stiff" - it is not a "hose". However, it does hold its shape when formed. If it was used all the time it would break. So a hose would be the better route. As to how flexible it is when it gets cold - I'm sure it stiffens up a bit, but its already stiff from the metal.


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## j.boudreaux88

drmerdp said:


> Personally
> 
> The demand regulators primary function is to be a safety valve where when engine vacuum disappears fuel flow stops. If you do not have enough NG volume from your demand regulator then you should look into a high flow rebuild kit for yours that uses a 1/2“ orifice.
> 
> Personally I’d consider using the engine oil pressure switch as a fail safe trigger for the MBV. Either use the existing one or tee off the port and add a second.
> 
> How stiff does that polyethylene gas pipe get when the temps drop?


drmerdp, I've done some digging and can't find anything on a 1/2 inch outlet garretson regulator outside of several sites stating "This unit is also available in a new high flow model with 1/2 inch outlet" but nothing outside of that. You have a resource for those?


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## GenKnot

j.boudreaux88 said:


> This unit is also available in a new high flow model with 1/2 inch outlet


It is confusing that they say "with 1/2 inch outlet" because they don't list any such animal on their website. The model 039-31173-1 is their high flow regulator (with primer. remove -1 for unit w/o primer). You can compare the 039-31173-1 and the 039-122 and see that the big difference is the spring.








Garretson Impco KN 039-122 - Carb & Turbo







carbturbo.com












Garretson Impco KN 039-31173-1 - Carb & Turbo







carbturbo.com


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## j.boudreaux88

GenKnot said:


> It is confusing that they say "with 1/2 inch outlet" because they don't list any such animal on their website. The model 039-31173-1 is their high flow regulator (with primer. remove -1 for unit w/o primer). You can compare the 039-31173-1 and the 039-122 and see that the big difference is the spring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garretson Impco KN 039-122 - Carb & Turbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbturbo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garretson Impco KN 039-31173-1 - Carb & Turbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbturbo.com


Thanks, both of those models show 3/8 inch outlet.


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## drmerdp

j.boudreaux88 said:


> drmerdp, I've done some digging and can't find anything on a 1/2 inch outlet garretson regulator outside of several sites stating "This unit is also available in a new high flow model with 1/2 inch outlet" but nothing outside of that. You have a resource for those?


The high capacity KN has a 1/2 inlet orifice. Basically a brass piece that’s deep inside the 3/4 inlet port.The outlet port appears to be the same across all the models. I would be nice if they had larger outlets that would accommodate a larger diameter hose from the load block to carb inlet. The hose on my EU7000 is longer then I would like but nessesary to properly fish it’s way through the enclosure. Shorter is always better for this hose.

The exploded parts view show the orifice as item 5. It might be a simple swap without the need for replacing the spring loaded sealing washer on the inside of the unit. Impco may be able to shed some light on that.

It also looks like the high flow KN may not be availible with a primer button. Hmmm.






039 31173 LPG 29.8kW IMPCO Low Pressure Regulator


High quality 039 31173 LPG 29.8kW IMPCO Low Pressure Regulator from China, China's leading IMPCO Low Pressure Regulator product, with strict quality control LPG 29.8kW Low Pressure Regulator factories, producing high quality 039 31173 Low Pressure Regulator products.



www.fuelsystem-parts.com





I wonder what’s the orifice size on @Bulldoggers KN regulator.


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## GenKnot

Add -1 for the high flow model with primer button.


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## GenKnot

j.boudreaux88 said:


> Thanks, both of those models show 3/8 inch outlet.


I suspect that is a "lost in translation" problem. By "outlet" they mean orifice.


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## drmerdp

The orifice is number 5 in the image.


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## GenKnot

I wonder if you drilled the orifice to 1/2 in (or bought one) and changed the spring to red, if that would essentially give you the high flow model?


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## drmerdp

GenKnot said:


> I wonder if you drilled the orifice to 1/2 in (or bought one) and changed the spring to red, if that would essentially give you the high flow model?


Yeah, I’m thinking converting to high flow is just a matter of 2 or 3 parts. Impco would need to confirm it.


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## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> That assumption being - by "throttle adjustment" you mean the load block to throttle the fuel. In that case, yes.
> 
> Also countering my own assumption in an effort to be thorough - there was some discussion somewhere a while ago about the physical "throttle"/governor on a generator.
> 
> I'm in the same boat on a manometer - as of now I don't have one. I have been able to get around the issues I've had thus far. That having been said - it would have been really helpful to have one. I may go the route of making a water based one this season then see how things go.
> 
> On a bit of an off-topic - I wonder if the fuel volume through the demand reg on the small gen on ng (it uses it on both fuels) is why it cuts off with much load. That wouldn't surprise me at all - and if I had a manometer it would be pretty easy to determine that - the gas pressure ahead of the demand reg would drop too low.


 I meant just that, the throttle on the generator itself, not the load block. The adjustment of the load block seems to not be much of a factor with what is going on. I am certain of that.

I stopped at the local propane shop and was given some things to try. He suggested I pick up a "pigtail" or whatever it's called to join both of my 100 pound tanks. The idea was to make sure the vaporization rate of a single 100 pound tank that may not be able to keep up with the fuel demands of such a large engine and heavy load was not the culprit. It made sense to try. 

As for as the manometer, he scoffed at that idea.


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## iowagold

the digital manometer is cool to look at the draw or suction on the line to the carb plate as well as look at the low pressure on the gas feed.
pm if you need links to good hand held units.


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## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> Garretson Impco KN 039-122 - Carb & Turbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbturbo.com


 That is one included with my kit.


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## drmerdp

FlyFisher said:


> Not sure off the top of my head what all the material is, but it is a metal pipe that is lined. I want to say it is aluminum. It is "stiff" - it is not a "hose". However, it does hold its shape when formed. If it was used all the time it would break. So a hose would be the better route. As to how flexible it is when it gets cold - I'm sure it stiffens up a bit, but its already stiff from the metal.


Gotcha, I thought it was underground polyethylene gas pipe.

Sounds like you got gasflex. Interesting, Inside and outside Polyethylene coated aluminum. Ive never heard of it before today. It installs similar to CSST but does not require bonding and is 1/3 the price. It might be a good fit for a project I want to do.


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## drmerdp

Went digging through the thread a bit. 7/16 orifice. Hmm

I wonder if @Texas T ever got his unit dialed in under heavy load. He never gave any feedback after his install. I think he was running natural gas. And going through his posted pics also has a 7/16 orifice regulator.


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## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> The engine on the 18kw is a pretty big engine - probably bigger than the 15kw we have (Honda GX690 v-twin). If you have a "demand regulator" on there with a load block it is entirely possible that your draw on that gas circuit through the demand reg is too much.
> 
> Truth be told - on NG with the 15kw I am running I have taken the demand reg out and replaced it with a powered ball valve as the "safety shut off"*. Then there is another manual ball valve that is the "load block". On Propane the demand reg I have works, on NG I think our pressure is too low.


 I am using the same demand regulator that you were using. I noticed it in your pics. It was fine with propane, but not natural gas, with your engine. The question is it fine on propane with mine? I may need the larger model?


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## iowagold

drmerdp said:


> Gotcha, I thought it was underground polyethylene gas pipe.
> 
> Sounds like you got gasflex. Interesting, Inside and outside Polyethylene coated aluminum. Ive never heard of it before today. It installs similar to CSST but does not require bonding and is 1/3 the price. It might be a good fit for a project I want to do.


yea lightning is hard on that stuff...
in some areas of the country it will not pass local and state fire code and fails gas code as a result.
they do not like it here in Iowa except on the main trunks...
then to black pipe at the service riser just before the service meter on the outside of the house.


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## iowagold

Bulldogger said:


> I am using the same demand regulator that you were using. I noticed it in your pics. It was fine with propane, but not natural gas, with your engine. The question is it fine on propane with mine? I may need the larger model?


it has to do with the sensitivity....
the smaller the orifice the better it is with small demand changes...
BUT
with that said the high part of the flow needs to be at below75% of the rated of the demand regulator...
there is a bunch of math for doing this by the number of cyls on the engine and the rpm and the CC'S of the engine.
if i had all of those numbers i can run the math.
you need the cfm numbers at low speed and full load speed...
the those numbers can be plugged in to another bunch of math for the demand regulator.

lol
love the math!
then go an extra bit for wiggle room on the numbers...

OH yeh!
there is a BIG thing on LP quality as well as NG quality...
both are a mix of gasses so.... the blend can be off like on gasoline!
not sure beyond a lab if they have a handheld meter yet that shows the exact mix....

(air fuel ratio)
that would be a cool thing to see is an afr meter just after the carby or just before the valves!
see the exact mix before it is burned in the engine...
right now they do the afr by the exhaust gasses ...
so a bunch of math and just a bit of magic to get a close number... not exact on the afr...
at least on the pre burn mix!

and there is different math depending on the fuel used.


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## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> OH yeh!
> there is a BIG thing on LP quality as well as NG quality...
> both are a mix of gasses so.... the blend can be off like on gasoline!
> not sure beyond a lab if they have a handheld meter yet that shows the exact mix....
> 
> (air fuel ratio)
> that would be a cool thing to see is an afr meter just after the carby or just before the valves!
> see the exact mix before it is burned in the engine...
> right now they do the afr by the exhaust gasses ...
> so a bunch of math and just a bit of magic to get a close number... not exact on the afr...
> at least on the pre burn mix!


 My home is about 3500 sq feet with a lot of devices and appliances that are always on. The btu required at startup of my 2006 model 4 ton or 3.5 ton central air along with the other devices and appliances in my home has to be relatively high. I ran the generator for about an hour. Gentleman at propane shop ask me if the tank sweat at all. When I said yes, he replied that I for certain had a tank size issue. It is also partly why he scoffed at the idea of measuring regulator pressure. The first and second stage regulators are from reputable companies that he believes are almost certainly delivering the correct pressures. There he felt was not the place to start. Manifolding two tanks hasn't solved the issue.

Wouldn't just opening the bleeder screw on the almost full vertical propane tanks let the "air" out since it's likely sitting on top of the propane? If not, how do you fix an almost full propane tank that may have not been properly purged? Any ideas?


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## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> with that said the high part of the flow needs to be at below 75% of the rated of the demand regulator...


 Starting watts of this generator is 27kW watts. 


LPG (Standard)29.8 kWLPG (High Flow)37.3 kW
.75 of 37.3kW is 29.975. Does that suggest to you, that I in fact need the high flow regulator?


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## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> It is confusing that they say "with 1/2 inch outlet" because they don't list any such animal on their website. The model 039-31173-1 is their high flow regulator (with primer. remove -1 for unit w/o primer). You can compare the 039-31173-1 and the 039-122 and see that the big difference is the spring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garretson Impco KN 039-122 - Carb & Turbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbturbo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garretson Impco KN 039-31173-1 - Carb & Turbo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbturbo.com


 Do you need the primer or does the primer just make it easier to start? GARRETSON IMPCO KN LOW PRESSURE REGULATOR # 039-31173 (marussiat.top)


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## GenKnot

Bulldogger said:


> That is one included with my kit.


Yes, that is the standard demand valve shipped with almost every conversion kit.



Bulldogger said:


> Do you need the primer or does the primer just make it easier to start?


The primer button makes purging a line of air easy, but you could also do that by just loosening a fitting. The button also helps when starting the gen much like a choke when using gasoline. However, the primer button is not always needed to start the engine. If my engine is not too cold, then I just give it 1/2 choke (which increases the vacuum) and it will start right up without using the primer button. Otherwise, I do use the primer (without choke) to increase fuel richness for starting. I know that many will say that you never use the choke for propane or NG. But I know what works with my genny and that may not work with someone else's setup. So, go with what works for you.



https://www.baldor.com/Shared/manuals/garretkn.pdf





Bulldogger said:


> ...why he scoffed at the idea of measuring regulator pressure. The first and second stage regulators are from reputable companies that he believes are almost certainly delivering the correct pressures.


You might be delivering the "correct" pressure at the source, but what is it at the gen after running through your lines. Without knowing the pressure you are dealing with at the genny when it is struggling under load, you are just guessing at the cause/solution. Like a good detective, you have to eliminate all possibilities one at a time to arrive at the correct solution.

As far as air in the tank(s), I have never experienced that with a tank that has been properly filled. Maybe a new tank might have some air in it after initial filling, but a refilled tank should not have any significant amount of air in it.


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## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> As far as air in the tank(s), I have never experienced that with a tank that has been properly filled. Maybe a new tank might have some air in it after initial filling, but a refilled tank should not have any significant amount of air in it.


 Tanks are new. They have never been refilled.


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## iowagold

Bulldogger said:


> My home is about 3500 sq feet with a lot of devices and appliances that are always on. The btu required at startup of my 2006 model 4 ton or 3.5 ton central air along with the other devices and appliances in my home has to be relatively high. I ran the generator for about an hour. Gentleman at propane shop ask me if the tank sweat at all. When I said yes, he replied that I for certain had a tank size issue. It is also partly why he scoffed at the idea of measuring regulator pressure. The first and second stage regulators are from reputable companies that he believes are almost certainly delivering the correct pressures. There he felt was not the place to start. Manifolding two tanks hasn't solved the issue.
> 
> Wouldn't just opening the bleeder screw on the almost full vertical propane tanks let the "air" out since it's likely sitting on top of the propane? If not, how do you fix an almost full propane tank that may have not been properly purged? Any ideas?


burn off all of the fuel, then vac the tank clean at -30 vac for a few hours.
then valve in the quality lp vapor.

hard to fix when it is a mix of gasses ..
at least to get it perfect..


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## drmerdp

I’ve heard that a lot propane companies are mixing large amounts of butane into their fuel. It’s boiling point is much higher then propane which means worse cold weather performance Though their energy content is the same.


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## GenKnot

drmerdp said:


> I’ve heard that a lot propane companies are mixing large amounts of butane into their fuel.


I wonder if they are still selling it as HD5 grade then? HD5 has to have at least 90% propane.


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## iowagold

yes lots of stuff like that is going on.
sign of the times..


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## Bulldogger

[


FlyFisher said:


> As to the question of whether a soft-start is needed or not - that's up to who's set up it is and what their thoughts/beliefs are. What I can say for certain is on my 15kw rotary (3600 RPM with a Honda GX690 engine) - with the fuel line/system plumbing we have it will start and run our central AC unit with very little lugging - and that is without a soft-start.


 How old and how large of a unit? That can make quite a difference. My units are old, made in 2006. One 3.5 ton and one 4 ton.


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## Bulldogger

FlyFisher said:


> So at that point - what is the big deal of tuning for the fuel type? Everyone's situation is different, though.


 Does frequency effect harmonic distortion? This generator holds 60Hz almost perfectly and supposedly is 5% distortion with gasoline. I'd like to be able to switch fuels in a crisis and maintain the frequency and distortion. I noticed that many dual fuel generators have high distortion, but not all. It's already tuned for one fuel type, gasoline. Really the **** thing is almost perfect on gasoline. Last year, temps were in the single digits. I really don't want to have to take the tank off and adjust for a different fuel in the conditions I saw. Really I am beginning to think this isn't a tri-fuel situation, it's either an all propane or all natural gas conversion. That is i if you want the frequency to say at 60Hz.


----------



## Bulldogger

iowagold said:


> burn off all of the fuel, then vac the tank clean at -30 vac for a few hours.
> then valve in the quality lp vapor.
> 
> hard to fix when it is a mix of gasses ..
> at least to get it perfect..


 I can burn off the 50 gallons of fuel. No access to a method to vac tank. I may just sell these tanks and buy some new already properly purged tanks.

I am getting backfiring off these new tanks. Does that tell you anything? I read lean mixture, too much air, can cause backfiring? That didn't happen with small tanks I used for testing. Generator never backfired.


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## Bulldogger

GenKnot said:


> View attachment 10751


 That's it.


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## Bulldogger

Ok. Got it working properly on propane. Runs 4 ton AC with no problem, just like gasoline. Frequency is same as gasoline. Runs whole house with no problem. Thanks for all who helped especially Iowagold for the phone call and encouragement . Per U.S carb tech support, I spliced in larger hose 3/8 they sent. Used a larger 1st stage regulator than kit included and larger hose 3/4 inch from tank. I don't think I need 3/4 but I'd recommend at least a 1/2 hose depending upon length. Also, the snorkel did not have equal flow on both sides. One side had greater flow. I installed a 3rd snorkel. It really didn't have greater flow, but it was balanced on both sides. Lastly I switched to the garreton 039-31173-1 regulator with larger orifice than one included with kit.

If using propane, use at least a 100 pound/25 gallon tank if weather is warm above 60 degrees. Use at least two 100 pound tanks/ joined together into one regulator otherwise the vaporization will not be great enough to support generator. Mr. Heater Propane 2 Tank Hook Up Kit with Soft Nose P.O.L., F273737 at Tractor Supply Co. if it's cold.

When installing the snorkel, tighten until you feel tension but then only go no more a half turn more. The snorkel really needs to be installed with as little tension as possible to avoid crushing the tips that inject the propane. Of all the steps this is the most important.

If you are looking for a reasonably priced option to power your whole house, I'd highly recommend this generator. Distortion is advertised at 5%. Maybe I'll get one of the guys to test it at some point for kicks to see if it matches specs.


----------

