# Failed Generac 7kW 0058370 and Researching Solution



## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi, folks. 

I'm new to the forum, and while I'm fairly hands-on with mechanical equipment, I'm not an expert on generators. So. I would appreciate some help in making the next move in ensuring reliable standby power for my home. Please accept my apologies for the long post! 

Here is some background:

The house was built (for the previous owner) in late 2014, and was equipped with a Generac Model 0058370 unit with ATS. Not sure what model the transfer switch is, but I have included some pictures to help identify generator and ATS:



















We've owned the home for about 4.5 years, and generally experience probably about 5 power outages per year, most of which are 4 hours or less. I have maintained the unit with synthetic oil, new filter, new plug, new air filter, etc., annually, and it has been fairly trouble-free. The only ongoing issue we have experienced is slow starting. The unit will always start, but it takes a lot of cranking before it will fire, usually right at the end of the first cranking cycle. This likely contributed to an early failure of the starter, which I replaced last year. The generator is on propane, and we are currently operating with 100lb cylinders, which last quite a long time. As far as requirements, we do really need an automated solution as our house we have a couple of sump pumps that are important at certain times of year.

Fast forward to two days ago. In our area, we have experienced heavier-than-normal snowfall, and with overhead lines in a heavily-forested area (Vancouver Island, BC), we have seen more frequent (and longer) outages than normal. This includes 14 hours over two outages on Christmas Eve. On Sunday morning, we had a very short outage, the generator started, and then horrible noises quickly ensued. Before I could get anywhere near the machine, it had obviously suffered catastrophic engine failure, which was confirmed when I looked inside the enclosure.










Ouch.

Not sure of the cause, as I did check the oil regularly, but I understand from internet research that this sort of failure is not uncommon for these units. The local Generac dealer confirmed this, and says that engines (and many regular parts) are no longer available for this model. He also confirmed that comparable replacement units are taking about 45 weeks to arrive due to global supply chain issues. C'est la vie.

So, for short-term coverage, I picked up a Firman 10000/8000 dual fuel unit (it was available down the street), and have it running, with extension cords handy, to get me through until I have a better, solution. For the slightly-longer term, I was thinking of simply connecting the Firman unit with a 230V twist-lock connector in place of the hard-wired connector that went to the Generac unit. However, this brings me to the first question:

If I understand correctly, in the even of loss of line power, the transfer switch commands the generator to start, and when it sees AC power from the generator, it transfers the load to the generator. Is this accurate? I have found manuals online that I think are the correct ones for this setup, but I just want to be sure.

If my understanding is correct, I would assume that if I connect the Firman unit to the cable that was going to the Generac, when the power goes out, I should be able to go manually start the Firman, and when the transfer switch sees it come up, then it will automagically switch over to generator power? Is this accurate, or am I missing something? Is there any logic exchanged between the generator or the ATS. or do they have to be a matched set, for some reason? 

Unfortunately, the Firman unit doesn't have a remote start option, so I won't be able to (easily) make that work, but at least this lets me get going without having to worry about all the extension cords, for now. 

I have some ideas about where to go from here, but this post is already too long, so I will end it here for now, and will add some additional thoughts and questions a bit later.

Thanks in advance for your patience with my noob questions. 

Cheers,
Shaun


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

great questions!
it all depends on the call for gen start.
if it is digital on a wifi or lan connection from the ats then you might be stuck doing some hard core design to get past the digital full auto.

see if you can find the wiring diagrams for both the ats and the gen.
if it is all relay controlled you should be able to adapt the new gen set to the current ats system.

you will need an electric gas valve for the new gen set.
as well as an inlet cord and inlet socket.

you will have to watch the load close...
and use a 50 amp inlet.
if the new gen is rated for a real 8000 watt run you are close to the old gen power by the math.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

By the looks of that transfer panel you can manually transfer the circuits to generator power like an interlock. No need to rely on it automatically switching.

Flip the utility breaker to off and the generator breaker to on. Done.

If automatic Operation only requires the L1,L2,N, and G to be connected to a power source then that’s a home run.

Can you snap a pic of what’s under that panel cover?


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Thanks, gentlemen.

There is definitely no Wi-Fi or LAN involved, and the only cable going into the generator is the multi-conductor that includes power, L1,L2,N, etc. I'll get a picture under the ATS cover as soon as I get home, but here is the generator side:










And the diagram on the inside:










I have also added the wiring diagram, installation and owners manuals as attachments. Hope it's okay to attach large files here! Please let me know if not and I will delete them.

With regard to the Firman generator, I am assuming that I will need the electric gas valve if I intend to automate startup, correct? As for cords, the Firman accommodates a few different types:










I was initially going to use the 14-50R, but Home Depot didn't have one, so I was planning to use this:










I can certainly get the 14-50 from an electrical supplier if needed, though.

From the perspective of load, the old Generac was 7kW, and the Firman is 8000W with 10000 surge. Hoping that this means that it will be acceptable for the current load. Here is the exact model:



https://www.homedepot.ca/product/firman-10000-8000-gas-9050-7250-watt-50a-120-240v-electric-start-gas-or-propane-dual-fuel-portable-generator-ctel-certified/1001096504



Thanks again for the help! I'm enjoying the learning experience, and am going to dig into the manuals a bit more.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

Check EBAY (continuously) for a replacement engine ... as others' generac's fall out with a stator/rotor failure, the engine will still be (reasonably) good. Your generac manuals will specify the engine type you want to search for (or set a search alert that notifies you).

The generac dealers want to sell new replacement engines, understandably, but at a year for resupply, perhaps the used market will help you. Not sure who will replace the engine for you, if you do find a (used) replacement ... w/o the field service manual, the replacement process might be tricky.

For example, I have a Generac 22kw model (7042) w/ a failed stator/rotor, but a reasonably good engine, and all kinds of ancillary parts around it ... will go onto EBAY for sale of parts as soon as I can get pics and such up.

You'll be waiting for a combination similar to mine ... stator/rotor failure on a model the same or close to yours with the same engine type, where the stator/rotor is just too expensive to fix ... so the rest will be parted out, via EBAY.

Hope this helps ...


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

I’ve been digging through the manuals you posted. This was the perfect motivation to fill some of my knowledge gaps on standby generators.

The transfer panel cannot be automatically triggered by the firmans power output. The generac generators control module supply’s 12v and selectively a ground on the 3 communication wires running from the transfer panel to the enclosure. If you remove the lower black trim panel on the enclosures electrical panel you’ll see the connector block with terminals 194 23 and 0 on it.

As for the connector you bought, that’s a 120v 30amp plug and is not appropriate for what you want to do. You’ll need a 50 amp inlet box to wire to the red, black, white, and heavy gauge bare ground wire. Then a cord that will connect from the inlet box to the 14-50 receptacle on your firman.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Check EBAY (continuously) for a replacement engine ... as others' generac's fall out with a stator/rotor failure, the engine will still be (reasonably) good. Your generac manuals will specify the engine type you want to search for (or set a search alert that notifies you).
> 
> The generac dealers want to sell new replacement engines, understandably, but at a year for resupply, perhaps the used market will help you. Not sure who will replace the engine for you, if you do find a (used) replacement ... w/o the field service manual, the replacement process might be tricky.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. I had been thinking about trying to find a used engine, but the more I've read about this model, the more concerned I have become about the durability of these engines. I can't help but think that I'd just be sitting on another ticking time bomb. I will keep it in mind, though, and will watch to see what comes up on eBay.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> I’ve been digging through the manuals you posted. This was the perfect motivation to fill some of my knowledge gaps on standby generators.
> 
> The transfer panel cannot be automatically triggered by the firmans power output. The generac generators control module supply’s 12v and selectively a ground on the 3 communication wires running from the transfer panel to the enclosure. If you remove the lower black trim panel on the enclosures electrical panel you’ll see the connector block with terminals 194 23 and 0 on it.
> 
> As for the connector you bought, that’s a 120v 30amp plug and is not appropriate for what you want to do. You’ll need a 50 amp inlet box to wire to the red, black, white, and heavy gauge bare ground wire. Then a cord that will connect from the inlet box to the 14-50 receptacle on your firman.


Thanks so much for taking the time to look into this in order to offer assistance. I spent a few hours this evening doing much the same, and came to a very similar conclusion about the viability of using the existing transfer switch with a "dumb" generator. The one thing I wondered about was your suggestion of possibly operating the transfer switch manually as a temporary solution. If I were to leave the control wires disconnected, could I then use the transfer switch manually in order to switch between line and generator power?

Anyway, looking at the longer-term solution, if I want to maintain a completely automated transfer, it seems that I have some serious choices to make. 

First option would be to try to adapt the Generac controller to the Firman generator (likely not simple). I found a post on a different forum where a guy went to great lengths to do a Kohler engine swap, and ran into issues. He was quite ingenious, and managed to find workarounds for all the technical obstacles, but as soon as he got it all working, the power generation portion of the generator failed! Poor guy.

Second option might be to add a standalone controller like those from Deep Sea Electronics. I still need to study this, but it looks like they have the flexibility in programming to be able to accommodate all the requirements, and send the necessary signal to the ATS.

Third option would be to get a different transfer switch that will automagically handle the switchover without requiring a signal from the generator. Not sure if this is possible, but Honda has some high-level info on their website indicating that they can work with all sorts of smart ATS units. Again, more study required.

Last option would be to bite the bullet and order a complete, new, integrated solution. However, availability seems to be a real issue, at the moment, and most of these seem to be offered by Generac. Given what I've just gone through, as well as all the issues I've read about, I'm hesitant to go down that path with them again. 

Am I missing any other obvious solutions? What really appeals to me, at the moment, is to pick up a nice, reliable Honda generator, and find a way to make it work with the current ATS, or get a compatible ATS. Still, there are pitfalls there, too, as Honda doesn't offer propane as a solution for long runtime, so I'd have to go aftermarket, which would void the warranty. Naturally, I'd also need to look at a secure enclosure to protect it from weather and thieves, but that would be the case with any portable generator.

Much to ponder, and thanks again for your assistance in helping me learn!

Thanks also for the heads up on the connector. The good thing is that I have an electrician friend who is going to do the actual connections, and you just saved me from getting laughed at by him. 😂 He suggested that I pick up the 14-50 connector first, but also said that a 240 twist lock could work. Figures that I picked up the wrong one!

Cheers,
Shaun


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

smdl said:


> If I were to leave the control wires disconnected, could I then use the transfer switch manually in order to switch between line and generator power?


Yes, you will be able to operate the panel manually. The smaller gauge communication wires can be disregarded and the heavy gauge wires can be used for the new inlet box.


smdl said:


> What really appeals to me, at the moment, is to pick up a nice, reliable Honda generator, and find a way to make it work with the current ATS, or get a compatible ATS.


It may be possible to interface with the generac ATS you have. Maybe with something like the GSCM-mini or something similar. I’ve pondered ways to have a few critical circuits on a auto-transfer panel and have the eu7000 auto start. I have a plan, but I’m unsure if it’ll ultimately be code compliant since the auto transfer switch I’d use is more geared toward solar and RV usage.


smdl said:


> Still, there are pitfalls there, too, as Honda doesn't offer propane as a solution for long runtime, so I'd have to go aftermarket, which would void the warranty. Naturally, I'd also need to look at a secure enclosure to protect it from weather and thieves, but that would be the case with any portable generator.


The warranty period is only 3 years, you can wait it out or just take the leap. I converted mine right off the bat, haven’t needed to bring it back for any warranty work.


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

Generac's model is "full support, by auth'd dealer" + propane + unknown thd + so-so reliability, so if playing in this open-frame generator arena, you'll periodically pay a base price of $2500 to $5000 every warranty period. Odds of a catastrophic failure (engine, stator/rotor, controller) seem to be at 2000 hours or so (or equivalent in years of age). Current warranty is up to 5 or 7 years, if you fully play in their support model (you are in an area covered by an auth'd dealer). They come to you and do the work. For this, you'll get a quiet machine, propane, full auto-start and other nifty features, and peace of mind.

Honda's model is "full support, by auth'd dealer" + inverter/generator (low thd) + reliability, so if playing in this arena, you'll periodically pay a base price of $5000 every warranty period (3 years?). Odds of a catastrophic failure (controller/gcu) seems to be at about 2500 hours, but the engine, stator/rotor seems to be further out; if you get the repairs done, the system will outlive its warranty. Current warranty is around 3 years? Gasoline only, so if you go propane, you'll mess with the warranty. No auto-start (w/o effort). You go to them (in most cases, you take the unit into a dealer), to get the work done; again, their reliability is a given (but to me, it only goes so far ... I think 2500 hours is not unreasonable, backed up by several threads on this site).

Duromax's model (what I use now, and I used to run a generac) is "self-support" + propane + 12% thd + so-so reliability, so if playing in this open-frame generator arena, you'll pay a base price of $1500 every warranty period. I purchase two right off the bat, so one is running, and the other is in near-standby mode; if one fails, it is easily repaired, and the other jumps right into duty, allowing for near 100% reliability (of power, when needed). Generators/parts are recycled, by becoming part of the stream of working units; add a unit when needed, part the failed unit out and feed back in. No auto-start. Nobody comes to you (unless you still have an old genny guy in your area), but that is ok, as it is easily DIY. Replace Duromax with any similar-class genny.

This is a long way around of saying you'll need to determine which arena you want to play in ... lots of variables (auto-start, fuel, support, warranty, who does the work, etc.) to consider, and everyone's use case is different. Honda's is not the same as Generac's, and neither are even close to the DIY model I use, but I get 100% reliability at a lessor cost than either of the other two; living rural, this seems to be the best fit for me. Nobody is coming in to work on my units, and I can't take them to anybody (few genny shops, these days). But, they are super easy to work on, and Duromax has the parts availability.

I'd stick w/ generac (replace your existing unit when you can), so you can keep the auto-start, full-service model, if you "don't want a failure" that _you_ have to manage ... you just call the auth'd dealer; if the maintenance is being done (right), you'll likely not have a failure within the warranty period and/or the 2000 hour mark. Usually, it all just works.

Hope this helps ...


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Yes, you will be able to operate the panel manually. The smaller gauge communication wires can be disregarded and the heavy gauge wires can be used for the new inlet box.
> 
> It may be possible to interface with the generac ATS you have. Maybe with something like the GSCM-mini or something similar. I’ve pondered ways to have a few critical circuits on a auto-transfer panel and have the eu7000 auto start. I have a plan, but I’m unsure if it’ll ultimately be code compliant since the auto transfer switch I’d use is more geared toward solar and RV usage.
> The warranty period is only 3 years, you can wait it out or just take the leap. I converted mine right off the bat, haven’t needed to bring it back for any warranty work.


Good info, thanks. I'm going to take a look into the GSCM-mini and see what it does. I have also been looking at the Deep Sea Electronics DSE3110, and will compare them both.

Just thinking about it, and for a short-term solution to manually control the transfer switch from the generator, it would be pretty simple to supply 12v from the Firman gen battery to the transfer switch (same as the Generac did), and put in a manual transfer button that would supply ground to the transfer switch when the generator has started and is ready to go. That would get me through with some convenience until I have the automation going.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> Generac's model is "full support, by auth'd dealer" + propane + unknown thd + so-so reliability, so if playing in this open-frame generator arena, you'll periodically pay a base price of $2500 to $5000 every warranty period. Odds of a catastrophic failure (engine, stator/rotor, controller) seem to be at 2000 hours or so (or equivalent in years of age). Current warranty is up to 5 or 7 years, if you fully play in their support model (you are in an area covered by an auth'd dealer). They come to you and do the work. For this, you'll get a quiet machine, propane, full auto-start and other nifty features, and peace of mind.
> 
> Honda's model is "full support, by auth'd dealer" + inverter/generator (low thd) + reliability, so if playing in this arena, you'll periodically pay a base price of $5000 every warranty period (3 years?). Odds of a catastrophic failure (controller/gcu) seems to be at about 2500 hours, but the engine, stator/rotor seems to be further out; if you get the repairs done, the system will outlive its warranty. Current warranty is around 3 years? Gasoline only, so if you go propane, you'll mess with the warranty. No auto-start (w/o effort). You go to them (in most cases, you take the unit into a dealer), to get the work done; again, their reliability is a given (but to me, it only goes so far ... I think 2500 hours is not unreasonable, backed up by several threads on this site).
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for the well-considered and thoughtful response. It really is all about what resources a person has access to, what capability they have, and what involvement they want to have. In my situation, I really don't want another situation where I can get parts. When the starter went on my Generac, I had to wait about a month for it to come in, and I can't even get engine parts for a seven-year-old machine. That takes Generac off the table for me, I think, and I'll be looking for a more modular solution that I have intimate knowledge of. I am mechanically and technologically capable (not so much electrically, but I have access to great electricians ), so I don't mind being more involved with the components, maintenance, configuration, programming etc. In fact, I prefer it. So, I think I'm going down the path of sourcing good individual component that I can find, and making them work together. Then, I'll keep extras on hand so I can swap pieces out if the need arises. 

I'm putting together a plan of how I'm thinking of proceeding, along with a list of proposed components. Once I have that together, I'll post it in this thread and hope that others will offer feedback to make sure I'm not making any silly mistakes.

Again, sincere thanks to everyone who has offered advice so far.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## VelvetFoot (Nov 11, 2019)

I imagine the power wiring from your generator to the transfer switch is sized to the 7kw generator, so that's something.

I'd think you'd want to make sure the current generator is totally out of the mix, so I think I'd disconnect all electrical connections from the transfer switch, in preparation to operate it manually.

Where's the Firman sit when it's in operation, and where's the transfer switch, inside or outside?

I mean, you could drill a hole in the existing gen's enclosure and mount the inlet box, if you could conveniently wheel the portable in the vicinity.

I'm fuzzy on all this stuff, but the transfer switch has a 50 amp breaker, but the nameplate say 29.2a at 240v. So, I wonder if you might be okay with a 30amp 240v. twist lock inlet. The Firman's 30 amp plug would have a breaker on it too, right? Things would be cheaper.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

VelvetFoot said:


> I imagine the power wiring from your generator to the transfer switch is sized to the 7kw generator, so that's something.
> 
> I'd think you'd want to make sure the current generator is totally out of the mix, so I think I'd disconnect all electrical connections from the transfer switch, in preparation to operate it manually.
> 
> ...


The wire terminating at the generators enclosure just by looking at it is at least 8awg If not 6awg. He will need to look closer to confirm. It’s possible to use 8 gauge wire as long as the conduit, wire, and terminations are rated for the 90 degree column. For example the reliance 50amp inlet has 90 degree column rated terminals… I personally would never suggest using less then 6gauge wire for a 50amp inlet but it’s technically OK as long as all the boxes are checked. If any of the comments are only listed for 75 or 60 degree column then 6 gauge is the minimum sized conductor for 50 amps.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Thanks, folks. I continue to learn more from this forum each day, and after two more extended power outages today, I need all the help I can get! This has been the worst year by far in the 5 years we have lived here.

The good news is that the Firman generator has operated well, today, and has kept the important things running (using extension cords -- not going through the transfer switch). The only fly in the ointment is that the UPS I have supporting all my key electronics (cable modem, router, etc.), wasn't really happy with the power it was supplying. On a fairly regular basis, it would switch over to battery in order to filter out things it didn't like. The UPS showed power ranging from 120v, to 121v, 122v, back to 120v, etc. I was too occupied to look at this closely, but this might have aligned to when heavy loads (pumps) were switching. So, I guess I learned today that an inverter generator is probably desirable for clean power to the house! What I don't know is if the UPS (APC 1500vA) is fully filtering out the bad effects of the power, or if I really need to not connect anything electronic for now. FWIW, we didn't see this behavior with the Generac unit.

To answer a few questions, the Firman generator currently sits out front of the house, which provides the most direct path for running extension cords to critical items. The long-term home for it will be at the back of the house, which is where the current (failed) Generac unit is located. The ATS is located in the garage near the front of the house, with all the cabling running to the back in conduit (behind finished walls) where the generator is. 

As for wiring for the old generator, yes, I do plan to complete disconnect the control wiring until we get to the point of using it on the new setup. Thanks for bringing up the concern about the gauge of wire for the 240V feed from the generator. I'll have a look at it to determine the gauge before doing anything else. I had really just assumed that the load was going to be the same on the new generator as the old, but it's absolutely better to be sure. 

Speaking of the new step, I'll be right back with another post to outline what I'm planning.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi, folks.

Please accept my apologies in advance for the long post! After a lot of very valuable advice from forum members, followed by a great deal of head-scratching, here is the direction that I plan to go in with my replacement generator:


Rather than go with another proprietary standby generator and transfer switch, I'm planning to go with quality individual components (that have decent parts availability), and make them work together. Part of the reason for doing this it the poor experience I have had with the Generac solution, where I find myself unable to get parts for a setup that is less than 7 years old. What I really want to be able to do is to have a spare (tri-fuel) portable generator sitting in my garage that I can simply roll into place if the primary unit fails. Then, I can roll the failed unit into my workshop, and do whatever is needed, in relative comfort, to get it going. If I can't fix it, I can just buy another unit, and wire it up for automatic operation. The other thing that contributes to this decision is that new standby units are currently almost impossible to find in our area. Every outlet that I have checked (and there have been a number of them) show "No stock available online" and "No stock available at nearby stores", regardless of the manufacturer, at least in the entry-level segment that I live in. This supports what my Generac dealer said. Bottom line is that I'm not willing to wait months for a solution, and I'm really not sure I want to go down that path again, anyway.
As for which specific portable unit I'll go with, I haven't fully decided yet, and TBH, I like the idea that I have some flexibility there. I have the Firman unit already, so I'll work with that for now. Beyond that, I'll keep researching what makes the most sense. As mentioned previously, I'm currently leaning towards a Honda product for reliability, but I'm not completely sure yet.
Being that I am going down the path of a portable unit, I'll need an enclosure to protect it from the elements, and to keep noise in check. We're not right on top of our neighbors, but we do want to be considerate of them. So, I'm planning to use the well-proven Suncast shed method, and after comparing generator size to internal dimensions, along with available space in the area where it will be placed, I have decided to go with the BMS3400X. I would have preferred to go with the BMS4700X, but it just made things a little more tight in the available space, and the 3400 is big enough for what I need.
Having decided upon the enclosure, I have been reviewing build threads to determine the best approach for cooling fans, inlet louvers, cable grommets, insulation, etc. However, there is a fair amount of variation between the specifics what people have used (size, CFM, insulation type, etc.), and I'm still trying to nail down the details. So, I welcome any well-informed advice on the subject. I do plan to install temperature monitoring devices after the build, so will be able to track the effectiveness of whatever cooling solution I choose, but it would be really nice to get it right the first time. Not sure if it matters, but I'm also planning to add custom aluminum baffles on the outside of the cooling fan and inlet louvers, lined with sound absorbing insulation. At this point, I'm thinking of Rockwool for the walls and doors, and something lighter and reflective on the lid. For cooling I'm thinking of a couple of 12" inlets, and maybe a 12" to 14" outlet fan (~1000+ CFM). Thoughts? Where we live, the climate is (usually) pretty moderate during both summer and winter. That said, for a few weeks in the summer, it can get up to 40-45C (104-113F), so I want to plan for that. Lows are rarely below -5C (23F), but we do see the odd few days as cold as -15C (5F). Where we last lived, -30C (-22F) or lower wasn't uncommon, and I sure don't miss that!!
As for wiring connections, my intent is to bring the current flexible conduit into the enclosure and terminate it in a junction box for distribution of the 240V, 120V and control wiring. I'll leave the specifics of how best to do this with my electrician friend. For distribution within the enclosure, my current thought for 240V is use the 50 amp RV-type cable with an inlet box, as if it were affixed to the house. For 120V, I'm thinking of a weatherproof outlet as used on the outside of the house. This will power the battery maintainer, charge an LED wall-mounted flashlight, and maybe one of those heaters that are used for dog houses (if that turns out to be necessary -- see propane, below). I'll first need to check the capacity of the 120V supply from the transfer switch to see what it will support, though. I know it is sufficient at least for the battery charger, though, as this is what it was used for with the Generac unit.
For automation, I plan to stick with the Generac transfer switch, for now. It has always worked well (so far), and I'm reasonably confident that I understand how it functions (more testing to follow). Over time, though, I will research other ATS units and hope to find one that is reasonably-priced, and will let me prioritize loads. Naturally, all of this means that I will need some sort of controller to sense the loss of line power, start the generator, and send the command to the transfer switch to do its thing (along with the reverse once power is restored). At the moment, I am leaning towards the Deep Sea Electronic DSE3110, which seems to be very capable, while also being reasonably-priced, and well-made (in the UK). I'm planning to mount this on the front door of a small, wall-mount metal cabinet, so all the connections are available on the inside. I'm also thinking of a putting a multiple relay board in there to simplify interconnection, but might just leave the relays on the generator side. We'll see. The intent will be to run a single multi-conductor umbilical cable from the controller over the generator with a single multi-pin connector. Both generators will have the same connector, so it will be simple to disconnect and reconnect everything if I need to swap it out.
For propane, I'm currently using 100# tanks, but am considering changing over to a 420# (with delivery service) to ensure long-run supply, improve cold-weather performance, and to move it further away from the generator and other sources of ignition. The price for propane with definitely be higher than going to my local Costco, but it means that I don't have to do that anymore, either. In any case, I would plan to have a quick disconnect fitting just outside of the enclosure so I can connect a 100# tank directly, if needed. Also, with tri-fuel, I can always default back to good old gas, if really needed.
So, that's a summary of what I am currently thinking. That said, I'm really new to this, and I'm hoping that those with more experience will be willing to point out the flaws in my cunning plan (Blackadder reference). I've tried to absorb everything said so far, but I'm sure there are plenty of additional things that I am not even considering yet.

Thanks again for all your help.

Shaun


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

THA


smdl said:


> Thanks, folks. I continue to learn more from this forum each day, and after two more extended power outages today, I need all the help I can get! This has been the worst year by far in the 5 years we have lived here.
> 
> The good news is that the Firman generator has operated well, today, and has kept the important things running (using extension cords -- not going through the transfer switch). The only fly in the ointment is that the UPS I have supporting all my key electronics (cable modem, router, etc.), wasn't really happy with the power it was supplying. On a fairly regular basis, it would switch over to battery in order to filter out things it didn't like. The UPS showed power ranging from 120v, to 121v, 122v, back to 120v, etc. I was too occupied to look at this closely, but this might have aligned to when heavy loads (pumps) were switching. So, I guess I learned today that an inverter generator is probably desirable for clean power to the house! What I don't know is if the UPS (APC 1500vA) is fully filtering out the bad effects of the power, or if I really need to not connect anything electronic for now. FWIW, we didn't see this behavior with the Generac unit.
> 
> ...


the switching in and out on the ups units is the norm when loads are cutting in and out on the gen set.
you might look in to easy start or motor drive like they use on air con units and industrial stuff.
those help with the in rush issues.
you might look in to the back up pumps they use for sump pumps that work off 12 volts dc
you might be able to use a aux water tank for when the power is out.
or get 2 more bladder tanks to make 150 gallons reserve water at pressure.
they sure help to even out the pump runs.
well pumps are tricky at best and need a LARGE gen set to run them right...
you might even look in to a dedicated gen just for the well pump....
it could be done with an demand ats system that would only kick in the gen for the well pump when you are low on water pressure.
question how deep is the well???
they make gas powered jet pumps...
just a thought... with large bladder tanks it maybe an option.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

iowagold said:


> THA
> 
> the switching in and out on the ups units is the norm when loads are cutting in and out on the gen set.
> you might look in to easy start or motor drive like they use on air con units and industrial stuff.
> ...


Thanks, iowagold. Lots to think about in your post. 

It's good to know that the UPS switching is normal, although didn't happen with the Generac unit previously. Apparently, that must have provided cleaner power.

Note that the well pump is not currently on the generator; just the two 1/3hp sump pumps and an effluent pump that rarely runs. Honestly, I don't know the depth of this well, and have been meaning to check. However, it does have a 1hp control box on it.

I'll definitely give thought to potential solutions for water. Again, thanks for that.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

UPS's at our off-grid location never "clicked" (cut in and out) when we ran on the generac (THD somewhere between 5% and 15%, but hard to pin down); these ups's do click when on our 12%THD Duromax's. My thinking is that it isn't a THD problem, as much as it is a QOS due to amount of power ... the Generac at 22kw powered everything in sight, even when charging the off-grid batteries through the inverter ... this is a guess. The whole neighborhood glowed when that thing was running ...

In another note, my theory on gennies is that there seems to be some kind of curve of age/utilization (not just utilization alone), where these things have to be replaced within a given set of years or hours. I call this the "base" price, and every generator is different. In the case of your 7-yo generac ... that is _old_ in terms of years/technology, even if it may not have a high run-time of hours. The base price unit has to be replaced every so often, just to keep up with technology/parts, and so on. Couple this with "warranty" of a given unit ... if the vendor won't warranty it for more than a couple of years, that probably correlates to how long you can keep it running (not more than a few years beyond it's warranty period). There are outliers, of course ... 10k hours, or 10 years or more of service.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

smdl said:


> Thanks, iowagold. Lots to think about in your post.
> 
> It's good to know that the UPS switching is normal, although didn't happen with the Generac unit previously. Apparently, that must have provided cleaner power.
> 
> ...


if you have a good current meter or the oem manuals for the pump or the exact make and models of the pumps we can look up the specs.

yea the extra bladder tanks with good one way check valves are a real good easy up grade for a well system.
it is like a ups for the water system....
extra reserve water for when the pump power is off.....
i had thought about doing a network of tanks here for city water as well..
that way when the water is down i can shut off the main and work off the stored water.

quality clean water is one of the things you have to have for survival....
and needs its own section for sure.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

It not surprising that the UPS would switch with a momentary dip in voltage. Electric pumps have alot of startup demand and it can cause a momentary voltage dip which then cause the UPS to switch to battery momentarily. Better quality alternators will handle surge loads with less issue.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

iowagold said:


> if you have a good current meter or the oem manuals for the pump or the exact make and models of the pumps we can look up the specs.
> 
> yea the extra bladder tanks with good one way check valves are a real good easy up grade for a well system.
> it is like a ups for the water system....
> ...


Thanks, Paul.

The 2 sump pumps we are using are from Liberty, and the specs indicate 5.2 amps at full load. I don't know what the effluent pump is, unfortunately.

We do have one bladder tank inside with about 60 gallons, and it does keep us going for some time if we are careful. Hadn't considered additional tanks, though. Do they require any maintenance to deal with stagnation if the well pump is working fine for a long time?

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

I got thinking about the UPS issues a bit more, and realized that it was sharing an extension cord with one of the pumps, which quite likely contributed to the problem. I'm thinking that next time I'll try to have the two pumps share a heavy duty cord, and use a separate one for the UPS. Might make a difference.

Thanks, all.

Shaun


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

smdl said:


> I got thinking about the UPS issues a bit more, and realized that it was sharing an extension cord with one of the pumps, which quite likely contributed to the problem. I'm thinking that next time I'll try to have the two pumps share a heavy duty cord, and use a separate one for the UPS. Might make a difference.
> 
> Thanks, all.
> 
> Shaun


oops there ya go!
yea go ultra HD on any cords is a real good plan.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

smdl said:


> Thanks, Paul.
> 
> The 2 sump pumps we are using are from Liberty, and the specs indicate 5.2 amps at full load. I don't know what the effluent pump is, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


run the tanks after the water treatment then you never have to deal with water quality issues.
and make sure to have check valves on each inlet for each tank.
we set the bladder pressure to the 50-60 psi we need for the water system.
and run gauges in 3 places so we can see at a glance where we are on pressure.
pump
after the water treatment
and after the bladder tanks.
and a secondary pressure regulator after the bladder tanks as a safety for the house system.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

smdl said:


> I got thinking about the UPS issues a bit more, and realized that it was sharing an extension cord with one of the pumps, which quite likely contributed to the problem. I'm thinking that next time I'll try to have the two pumps share a heavy duty cord, and use a separate one for the UPS. Might make a difference.
> 
> Thanks, all.
> 
> Shaun


Worth a shot. Never hurts to have a 12 gauge. Shotgun or extension cord.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Worth a shot. Never hurts to have a 12 gauge. Shotgun or extension cord.


😂😂😂


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi, folks,

Busy week with work, and I also have been down a rabbit-hole learning about larger inverter chargers (not inverter generators). Seriously considering going that route and tying the generator into the inverter to recharge batteries. Is anyone here doing this? I would appreciate the relative certainty of the inverter keeping the sump pumps going for several hours in case the generator doesn't start, or decides to grenade like mine recently did.  

As an aside, there was a request some time ago to post a picture of the inside of the transfer switch. I finally got a moment to remove the front panel:










There was also discussion around what gauge the wiring was. I looked for markings on it, but was not able to find any. Here is a closeup:










Can anyone tell what gauge the heavy wiring is?

Thanks, all. Have a great weekend!

Shaun


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

looks like 6 gauge.
hard to tell with out an reference as the red wire insulation could be thick.

50amp... on the interlock panel...
so is this a sub panel and only supplies power to the
4 breakers?
one 15 amp
three 20 amp
looks to be room to expand on that part..


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

Looks like 6awg hard to say though. I’m surprised with a 7000watt generator only 4 spaces were filled.

An inverter charger and battery bank is a very expensive solution for a sump pump. It obviously can be used for lots of other electrical needs as well. It’s neat how they can bypass the battery and supply grid or generator power when availible. But if the sump pump is the main or only concern a 12v battery backup pump kit is fairly inexpensive.









Battery Backup Sump Pumps


Battery Backup Sump Pump superstore. Huge selection of Battery Back Up Sump Pumps. Buy Battery Backup Pump Direct and save.




www.sumppumpsdirect.com


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

I believe you are grid-tied? I'm off-grid, so I run solar/genny power thru a Magnum 4024 inverter/charger (solar via a midnite classic mppt) ... it takes care of charging our LiFePO4 battery bank; when not charging, then it feeds the house from the battery bank. The battery bank feeds the house for upwards of 24 hours or more, in between being topped off by solar, or charged by genny during non-solar times.

Is this what you are asking about?

It gets tricky if you are grid-tied, as all kinds of regulations come into play ... an electrician is almost certainly called for to sort through the wiring issues.

If grid-tied, you could get away with a inverter/charger and a battery bank, w/ no solar or mppt; when grid is on, the inverter/charger draws from that to top off the bank. when grid is down, inverter feeds the circuits, and genny is tied in at times to replenish the bank.

Hope this helps ...


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

iowagold said:


> looks like 6 gauge.
> hard to tell with out an reference as the red wire insulation could be thick.
> 
> 50amp... on the interlock panel...
> ...


Thanks, Paul.

6 is what I thought, too, but I will have an electrician confirm. Looking at the tables it looks like it is rated for 60 amps in the 90 degree column, and that should be safe for the 50 amp transfer switch/subpanel. 

As for circuits, yes, there are only the 4 on the panel, and I agree that this seems light. However, the main purpose of this installation was to keep the various pumps working, and I'm sure they were thinking about the overall surge draw. There are two 1/3 HP sump pumps, one 1 HP grinder, a few pot lights in the hall, and two outlets in the kitchen. From what I have found in various calculators here is a rough estimate of what I think the load will look like *including what I want to add* (fridge, freezer, well pump):










Without those items, it looks like our current run load is 4840w, and surge is 7040w (assuming that all are running at the same time), which is likely why they stopped there. So, that's why I was wanting to determine if the wiring and transfer switch could support more if I were to get a bigger generator. This is also what sent me down the path of looking at inverters, as they have so much more surge capacity to accommodate these high inductive loads, and that would leave me the ability to add more things without exceeding the run capacity of the inverter.

Thanks again.

Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Looks like 6awg hard to say though. I’m surprised with a 7000watt generator only 4 spaces were filled.
> 
> An inverter charger and battery bank is a very expensive solution for a sump pump. It obviously can be used for lots of other electrical needs as well. It’s neat how they can bypass the battery and supply grid or generator power when availible. But if the sump pump is the main or only concern a 12v battery backup pump kit is fairly inexpensive.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right, it is an expensive option, and I don't take that lightly. However, I'm looking for peace of mind -- particularly if I am traveling. The thought of my wife trying to figure out what to do if the generator were not to start, or if it blew up, or if the starting battery were to die, etc., leaves me with a real sense of unease. Even worse, if we are both away, what then? Given that our outages are usually relatively short (<4 hours), having an immediate, battery backup that would last many hours (possibly days) is really appealing to me. Then, the generator would be relegated to a backup charging role, where surge load is not such an issue (or can be controlled). That said, I'm also thinking of retaining the ability to manually transfer the generator back to the transfer switch in the event that the inverter were to fail. Multi-layered redundancy tends to be part of my DNA after operating dispatch and data centers for decades. I can really identify with that old joke: "Yes, I know I'm being paranoid, but am I being paranoid enough??". 

Also, as you say, there are other potential benefits. For example, this path might allow me to start adding in some comforts, as well as the basic necessities, which would be really nice when the power goes out. Secondarily, although I don't have any immediate plans to do so, it would also provide the basis for adding solar to the mix. We'll see.

With regard to battery backup sump pumps, I actually have one of those here, but have not installed it due to practical issues. The sump pits are relatively narrow, and there just doesn't seem to be a good way to add the backup pump in without possibly getting in the way of the primary pump. Then, there are all the horror stories I have heard about 12V pump issues, including reduced capacity, unreliability, never-ending, piercing alarm tones, etc. Maybe these are not the issues that I worry they are, but they don't leave me with a real sense of confidence.

As always, thanks for your comments. They are always well-considered and helpful.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

50ShadesOfDirt said:


> I believe you are grid-tied? I'm off-grid, so I run solar/genny power thru a Magnum 4024 inverter/charger (solar via a midnite classic mppt) ... it takes care of charging our LiFePO4 battery bank; when not charging, then it feeds the house from the battery bank. The battery bank feeds the house for upwards of 24 hours or more, in between being topped off by solar, or charged by genny during non-solar times.
> 
> Is this what you are asking about?
> 
> ...


Yes, we are grid-tied, so I am really looking more for practical backup power than extended off-grid capability. That said, having the option to add solar in the future is somewhat appealing. I still need to do a bunch of research to see if it makes sense, though, particularly as we are in a heavily-forested area, which limits the amount of direct sunlight we get.

Having an electrician look into this is definitely part of the plan, regardless. I'm certainly familiar with the concepts, design, etc., but the actual mechanics of electrical work are not my strength (low-voltage is another story, though). I find the electrical component to be interesting, and will follow closely, but I know better than to trust myself with this portion of the project.

Yes, I'm thinking of operating just as you describe, and am researching what might work best. Do you know of a good forum for input on inverter chargers, etc.? From my limited research, it looks like companies like Outback and Magnum are the established (and expensive) players (made in USA), followed by the likes of Victron (designed in the Netherlands, built in China), then a whole lot of made-in-China brands, some of which are getting to be really good, while others aren't. I'm trying to find the right balance for my situation, and am currently thinking that Victron might be a good choice, with its variable-charge "generator assist" function. Another option that might fit would be an Aimes product, like this:



6000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger - 24 Volt



Still lots to learn, though, and I have a list of about a dozen questions that I am tracking down answers for. This forum has been very helpful, and it would be nice to find an equivalent related to that side of emergency power.

Thanks again.

Shaun


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

smdl said:


> Thanks, Paul.
> 
> 6 is what I thought, too, but I will have an electrician confirm. Looking at the tables it looks like it is rated for 60 amps in the 90 degree column, and that should be safe for the 50 amp transfer switch/subpanel.
> 
> ...


you might look at upgrade on the system in the future to load shed....
or voting...
that way you could get more out the of the gen set...
maybe use ups units for lights that would charge the batteries when you extra power available.
same for tv, internet and more...


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## 50ShadesOfDirt (Oct 23, 2021)

This forum is great for equipment advice (solar, inverters, batteries, etc.), off-grid, grid-tied, or anything else:

https : //diysolarforum.com


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

smdl said:


> With regard to battery backup sump pumps, I actually have one of those here, but have not installed it due to practical issues. The sump pits are relatively narrow, and there just doesn't seem to be a good way to add the backup pump in without possibly getting in the way of the primary pump. Then, there are all the horror stories I have heard about 12V pump issues, including reduced capacity, unreliability, never-ending, piercing alarm tones, etc. Maybe these are not the issues that I worry they are, but they don't leave me with a real sense of confidence.


I have no idea what kind of water table you are dealing or how critical the pumps are for wet weather. Yeah battery backup units are low GPH but for most situations, are the difference between a wet or dry basement. 

The battery backup pumps usually have a much smaller footprint then typical sump Pumps. Also they usually get installed higher in the pit supported by the PVC discharge pipe and clear of the primary pump. If the amount of water entering the pit overwhelms the primary pump the battery pump joins the fun. 

Im all for an elaborate battery bank inverter system, but if you already own a battery backup setup, might as well put it to good use. Just saying.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Thanks for the great suggestions, gentlemen! I'll keep you posted on progress.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

iowagold said:


> you might look at upgrade on the system in the future to load shed....
> or voting...
> that way you could get more out the of the gen set...
> maybe use ups units for lights that would charge the batteries when you extra power available.
> same for tv, internet and more...


Hi, Paul.

Well, your last suggestion is (sort of) what I have decided to do. After a great deal of research, much of it on diysolarforum.com (thanks 50ShadesOfDirt), I decided to go for an all-in-one off-grid power system that essentially operates like a big UPS (used in combination with the generator). I know that this part of my solution isn't directly relevant to the generator forum, but I promised to keep everyone posted on what I am doing, and generator still plays a really important part. So, here is a brief description:

The unit that I am going with is a 48v 6000w all-in-one inverter/charger/solar controller that has 18000w surge capability (good for the pumps!), and a lot of other features. Although I will initially use it as a big, grid-supported UPS, the integrated solar controllers will make it easy to add that option should I decide that I want to. Here is the unit:






Growatt 48V 6000T 6kW MPV (250V Solar Input) Split Phase 120V/240V output (50A at 120V ,25A at 240V) – more in Nov – Watts247.com







watts247.com





These are available in a number of different sizes, including a 12,000w setup with 36,000 surge capability, but I think the 6000w should be good for what I want to do.

With this setup, I will be restructuring my sub panel to bring additional comforts (lights, outlets, etc.) into the mix, and the generator will normally be relegated to a backup charging role. Basically, the unit monitors battery pack voltage, and triggers a dry contact when the batteries hit a programmable low threshold. When the batteries return to a programmable high threshold, the dry contact releases and the generator stops. That takes care of the generator start/stop, and my intent is then to simply connect the generator to a separate charger attached to the battery pack. Although the Growatt unit has its own charger that it will use when grid power returns, it sees generator and grid power as essentially the same thing if the generator is connected to it. This means that it will simply pass (dirty) generator power through to the loads, and the generator will then be exposed to the heavy surge loads of the pumps, in addition to the battery recharging load. By simply adding a separate fast charger to run on generator only, all of this is avoided.

This should be a very functional system, with many hours of standby power before any generator intervention is needed, and many of our power outages will likely be resolved before we ever get to the point of needed to run the generator all all. Also, the generator can simply be run for as long as necessary to recharge the batteries, and then will shut off. When it runs, it will have a very stable charging load, and will not be subjected to any crazy variable loads. 

The one concern I have is that much depends on the Growatt unit itself, and if that fails, we're back to square one. So, in addition to all of this, I will be installing a manual transfer switch that will allow me to connect the generator directly to the sub panel, thereby bypassing the Growatt system entirely, and allowing the critical loads to run directly from the generator, if necessary.

Hope all that makes sense, and please forgive me for posting non-power equipment info to this forum, but I thought people might be interested in other backup power options that are out there. For me, a blended solution that is completely automatic in the initial stages, is really appealing. Anyway, now back to figuring out my generator stuff (which I'll post separately).

Thanks again for the great advice, everyone!

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> I have no idea what kind of water table you are dealing or how critical the pumps are for wet weather. Yeah battery backup units are low GPH but for most situations, are the difference between a wet or dry basement.
> 
> The battery backup pumps usually have a much smaller footprint then typical sump Pumps. Also they usually get installed higher in the pit supported by the PVC discharge pipe and clear of the primary pump. If the amount of water entering the pit overwhelms the primary pump the battery pump joins the fun.
> 
> Im all for an elaborate battery bank inverter system, but if you already own a battery backup setup, might as well put it to good use. Just saying.


You're absolutely right, of course. I do already have one of these, and taking a look at it more closely, it should be possible to install it in one of my sump pits. That will provide a final layer of protection should all else fail, and I'm always a fan of that. Looking at my power plan, I'm at 5 layers now, as follows:

1. Grid
2. All-in-One inverter/battery bank
3. On-Demand generator charging of battery bank
4. Inverter bypass via manual transfer switch to allow direct generator support of critical loads
5. Battery-Operated backup sump pump

I think that should do it. 

Thanks again.

Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Okay, back to the generator setup! 

During the week, Home Depot got in contact, and let me know that my BMS3400 shed had come in. So, I unpacked it today, and started having a look at how it goes together (pretty simple!!). After ordering this shed, I noticed a few posts indicating that it might be tight for a generator larger than 6000w, so I was a bit concerned. However, now that I have the generator sitting in it, I think it's going to be fine (as long I don't use really thick insulation). The exhaust on my Firman unit exits to the right, so clearance at the back isn't a huge issue, and the only things close to the front and back are the wheels (which could come off, if needed). Aside from the wheels, I have about 3.5" of clearance at the back, and over 4" at the front (and that's to the frame -- actual components are further). With the airflow I am planning for, I don't think that should be any problem at all. For comparison, looking inside the enclosure of the failed Generac unit, there is MUCH less clearance than with this shed. I'm definitely open to any thoughts on this, though.

Before ordering fans, louvers, insulation, etc., I wanted to get the shed here so could measure things. Having done that today, here is what I am thinking of using:
*
Fan/Shutter:*



https://www.amazon.ca/iPower-Shutter-Exhaust-Aluminum-1550RPM/dp/B08QHJHF5D/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2M9F5NFZJ9BWI&keywords=16%22+generator+fan+shutter&qid=1642308010&sprefix=16+generator+fan+shutte%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-5



*Intake:*

I'm thinking that something that will naturally block noise would be good, so perhaps something more than simple open vents. Maybe something like this?



https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07MG1JG5Z/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B07MG1JG5Z&pd_rd_w=KKbnt&pf_rd_p=a2b32c5b-02b0-4273-a3c7-c6bfabb067a2&pd_rd_wg=YtXzD&pf_rd_r=RBZECMR7QPX6PY62KZ04&pd_rd_r=8cf6ccc6-a13c-45d1-84fc-36a769253dc6&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExUEY4RVlXRFo1SVpFJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTk2OTYwTEJQOTFEWkE0Rlg5JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyMTczNzYxOU5JNjFGM0hMWDlZJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==



Not sure exactly how I would mount it, though, as it is meant to be installed in thick walls. There might well be something better out there, so I would really welcome input on this one.

*Insulation:*

Both heat and sound protection are important, so something reflective with some ability to absorb sound would be appreciated. 

This would work well for heat, and the fire rating is great, but it doesn't say anything about noise:



Amazon.ca



Does anyone know how effective this might be?

Once again, thanks for any advice that you might have.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

smdl said:


> You're absolutely right, of course. I do already have one of these, and taking a look at it more closely, it should be possible to install it in one of my sump pits. That will provide a final layer of protection should all else fail, and I'm always a fan of that. Looking at my power plan, I'm at 5 layers now, as follows:
> 
> 1. Grid
> 2. All-in-One inverter/battery bank
> ...


It’s going to be a heck of a setup. 👍

For your exhaust fan 16” should be sufficient depending on your summer temps.

For the intake, I used a motorized intake shutter. It’s a very clean and effective solution but pricy. The intake you have listed should install without issue, though it will encroach into the interior space a bit.

Insulation, the foil faced foam to linked to, will work, it carries a firing rating and will reduce heat soak in the enclosure with some sound attenuation. I used a peel and stick foil faced foam similar to this. 


https://www.amazon.ca/LINGDA-Insulation-Dampening-Moistureproof-Waterproof/dp/B074SXM4Q9/ref=dp_fod_1?pd_rd_i=B074SXM4Q9&psc=1


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> It’s going to be a heck of a setup. 👍
> 
> For your exhaust fan 16” should be sufficient depending on your summer temps.
> 
> ...


Yes, maybe overkill, but worth the peace of mind, particularly for my wife! 

Thanks for the info on the shutters. I'll have a look at motorized intake shutters, and see what is out there. Question for you: Do you do anything to delay closing the shutters on generator shutdown? I would imagine that there is still quite a bit of heat there when the shutdown occurs, and the lack of airflow might make temperature increase substantially.

As for the insulation, the peel and stick would certainly be a lot easier to install, and would not require the use of fasteners, which tend to transfer heat past the barrier. I'll have to give that some thought. Have you noticed any tendency for the insulation to de-laminate over time?

Thanks again -- really appreciate your help.

Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi, Folks.

I'm working my way through ordering all the parts I'll need for the shed, and need to figure out what kind of inlet box to get. On the generator side, I plan to use the L14-50R outlet, which is fine, and there are intlet boxes that use the same female connector. Problem is, this would require a cord with two male ends, and I can seem to find any like that. Also, I don't seem to be able to find any inlet boxes that have a male connector that would match all the cords I can find. Can anyone let me know what the proper combination would be, in this case?

Thanks,
Shaun


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

You want the inlet box to be male, not female.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> You want the inlet box to be male, not female.


Makes sense -- I just haven't been able to find one with a male connector of that type yet. All that I have seen so far are twist lock. I'll keep looking.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Are you looking for something like this?


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> Are you looking for something like this?
> View attachment 10908


Yes, thanks, although I now need to find someone who has them in stock. I really don't need a cord this long as it is just going in the generator shed, but if this is all there is, then I guess that's what I need. 

I appreciate the help!

Shaun


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

I just Googled "*14-50 Cord and Inlet Box*" and came up with that.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Yes, I did the same, and came up with this one, too, but way down the list. From everything I have read online, this configuration is quite rare, and even this ready-made cord is apparently custom made at time of order (per corddepot.com). I've sent them a note asking if they can custom make it in a shorter length. 

As an aside, they indicate that they will custom-make any cord to your specifications, so I have asked about one that is male on both ends to match the readily-available female inlet boxes. I think I'd prefer that second option, as then it would be compatible with inlet boxes that I can find locally.

Thanks again for helping me get on the right path!

Shaun


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## McCorby (Apr 26, 2021)

smdl said:


> As an aside, they indicate that they will custom-make any cord to your specifications, so I have asked about one that is male on both ends to match the readily-available female inlet boxes. I think I'd prefer that second option, as then it would be compatible with inlet boxes that I can find locally.
> 
> Thanks again for helping me get on the right path!
> 
> Shaun


Please do not do this. It is called a suicide cord for a reason and is most definitely not the “right path”.

Also, no legitimate company would ever consider making one….


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

McCorby said:


> Please do not do this. It is called a suicide cord for a reason and is most definitely not the “right path”.
> 
> Also, no legitimate company would ever consider making one….


Thinking about it, I can see why, so thanks for mentioning it. I'll see if they can make a shorter version of the advertised cord.

Cheers,
Shaun


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Hindsight is 20/20. I used a suicide cord some 25 years ago and man, the twenty-something version of me would think it was a brilliant idea. That's besides the fact that the thing almost "bit" me a couple of times.

If a time machine exists, I'd go back and give myself a meaty smack in the face.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

smdl said:


> From everything I have read online, this configuration is quite rare, and even this ready-made cord is apparently custom made at time of order (per corddepot.com).


You could consider going with a different style inlet box. Search for "*NEMA 14-50P to SS2-50R Extension Cord with NEMA SS2-50P Generator Inlet*". Walmart shows a 7ft. cord available.


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Parkworld-62404-RV-50A-Shore-Power-Extension-Cord-Adapter-50amp-Camper-Plug-14-50P-to-SS2-50R-Marine-Twist-Lock-Receptacle-7FT/634217214



I have not read thru this entire thread, so I am not sure what you are trying to do. But it is possible that you can run PVC conduit between shed and house? You could use junction boxes and/or LB pull boxes and then make up your own short cord over to the gen. Should be much cheaper to do that.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> You could consider going with a different style inlet box. Search for "*NEMA 14-50P to SS2-50R Extension Cord with NEMA SS2-50P Generator Inlet*". Walmart shows a 7ft. cord available.
> 
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Parkworld-62404-RV-50A-Shore-Power-Extension-Cord-Adapter-50amp-Camper-Plug-14-50P-to-SS2-50R-Marine-Twist-Lock-Receptacle-7FT/634217214
> ...


That makes a lot more sense, as there are more cables out there that will fit this inlet box. Much appreciated.

What you describe is essentially what I am planning to do, which is why I only need a short cord. 

Thanks again.

Shaun


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

smdl said:


> Yes, maybe overkill, but worth the peace of mind, particularly for my wife!
> 
> Thanks for the info on the shutters. I'll have a look at motorized intake shutters, and see what is out there. Question for you: Do you do anything to delay closing the shutters on generator shutdown? I would imagine that there is still quite a bit of heat there when the shutdown occurs, and the lack of airflow might make temperature increase substantially.
> 
> ...


Honestly no real concerns with temp rise after shutting down. The enclosure isnt airtight even with the shutters

The foil is holding up well and has no signs delaminating.

For your inlet box it by code needs to be a male receptacle. The “California standard” CSxxxx range of 50amp plugs and receptacles are the most common and more appropriate option.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Honestly no real concerns with temp rise after shutting down. The enclosure isnt airtight even with the shutters
> 
> The foil is holding up well and has no signs delaminating.
> 
> For your inlet box it by code needs to be a male receptacle. The “California standard” CSxxxx range of 50amp plugs and receptacles are the most common and more appropriate option.


Sounds good, thanks.

Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi, folks.

Well, a lot of time has passed, and I haven't had much time to work on the project, but I have finally accomplished phase 1 (generator in enclosure with manual start/transfer). Here are a few pictures:


































I just realized that I didn't grab a pic of the fan and louvers from the inside. Will do that. 

I think it looks pretty reasonable, and it looked even better once the silicone had dried to clear. There's definitely no hiding what's inside, but that's not unexpected.  I also notice that the lid of the enclosure looks a bit distorted in these pics, and it is, but that is because it was propped up on one side during all the installation work. It very quickly returns to its normal shape once it is allowed to lay flat for a few minutes.

Overall, I'm happy with how it turned out, and operating noise is quite well-contained. Interior temps seem to be very reasonable so far, but I'll definitely do some additional testing to be sure. The fan/louvers seem to be working well, and the exhaust heat is minimal. The exhaust inside the shed is built in layers with a flexible steel extension running to the outside of the shed, surrounded with a layer of ceramic fiber insulation, and then the metal dryer vent outlet around that. I still have some more testing to do, but after running for about 30 minutes, the exhaust was warm (of course), but I could still leave my hand on it for a second without issue. This was on a 33C/91F day, and it seems very reasonable to me.

Next step will be to get going on the inverter/charger unit so the generator can be relegated to backup charging duties. The batteries took about 3 months to arrive, but I now have pretty much all that I need to progress, and I want to have phase 2 in service before winter. 

Sincere thanks to all who have provided input so far!

Cheers,
Shaun


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

From the perspective of monitoring temps inside the enclosure, I'd appreciate any input on options for suitable thermometers. Ideally, I'd love to have something in there permanently that would monitor temperature and report alerts (via WiFi) when things exceed established thresholds. Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Shaun


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Plenty of options online: Amazon.com : remote temperature monitor with alarm

In my case, I use a combination of products because I already have other IoTs and smart devices at home.

I use these Zigbee sensors and put them in every room in the house. You could put one inside your generator enclosure:








SONOFF SNZB-02 ZigBee Mini Indoor Temperature and Humidity Sensor for Checking the Room Climate, SONOFF ZigBee Bridge Required, Indoor Thermometer Hygrometer with Alert, Works with Alexa, Google Home - - Amazon.com


SONOFF SNZB-02 ZigBee Mini Indoor Temperature and Humidity Sensor for Checking the Room Climate, SONOFF ZigBee Bridge Required, Indoor Thermometer Hygrometer with Alert, Works with Alexa, Google Home - - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com





Then you'll need one of these hubs to which the sensors connect to (via Zigbee) and connects them to the internet (via WiFi or wired ethernet).








Amazon.com: MOES Tuya ZigBee 3.0 Hub/Wired Gateway, WiFi Smart Home Bridge Remote Controller, Compatible with Alexa/Google Assistant, Work with Tuya ZigBee Smart Device, White : Electronics


Amazon.com: MOES Tuya ZigBee 3.0 Hub/Wired Gateway, WiFi Smart Home Bridge Remote Controller, Compatible with Alexa/Google Assistant, Work with Tuya ZigBee Smart Device, White : Electronics



www.amazon.com





or









SONOFF ZBBridge Smart Zigbee Bridge Hub, WI-FI & Zigbee Dual-protocol Supporting, APP Control and Multi-device Management: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement


SONOFF ZBBridge Smart Zigbee Bridge Hub, WI-FI & Zigbee Dual-protocol Supporting, APP Control and Multi-device Management: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement



www.amazon.com





Finally, you'll need the app for the above hub of your choice (whether it's Tuya/Smart Life or eWelink/SonOff) on your phone to set them all up, which also lets you integrate it with voice assistants such as Alexa or Google Home. It enables you to ask "Alexa, what is the temperature (or humidity) in the bedroom?", etc. If you don't need that, the app lets you set it up in such a way that it can notify you when a certain temperature or humidity threshold is reached. If you have smart devices, in addition to sending you a notification, it can also do things like or turn a light on, like a colored smart bulb (ie. light it up RED as a visual warning for anyone in the house) or turn on a 2nd exhaust fan in the enclosure, etc. Compared to using a basic remote thermometer/hygrometer, these smart devices are much more flexible.... if you're that guy.


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## smdl (Dec 28, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Plenty of options online: Amazon.com : remote temperature monitor with alarm
> 
> In my case, I use a combination of products because I already have other IoTs and smart devices at home.
> 
> ...


Great information, thanks! Oh, and I might be 'that guy'. 😁

Cheers,
Shaun


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