# 2 smaller generators instead of 1 larger one?



## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

So glad I stumbled upon this forum, so much useful info! I still have questions though 😏

I'm on the Gulf Coast and have been planning for a long time to get a generator for hurricane season, but after this great Texas winter blackout, I'm definitely following through now. I calculated the necessary loads and thought I should get a Generac GP 6500 or 8000, _but then_ I learned about total harmonic distortion and am thinking I need to get a smaller inverter for the electronics and maybe the GP 6500 will suffice for fridge, chest freezer, portable AC unit, and coffee maker or toaster oven. This would also be a more affordable option for me instead of getting a single inverter with low THD that's big enough to support all the loads.

Now I have to consider cable management... is it safe to have half a dozen power cords running from the gennys in the back yard all through the house, some to major appliances? (I'm already looking at a reference chart to determine the length/current/gauge relationship, just trying to figure out other safety considerations)

I did think about getting a whole home unit instead, but considering the cost and lack of portability, I'd rather have 2 portables that I could take elsewhere if needed.

Are there other options I'm missing?


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

I hope you guys are ok down there, I have two sisters in TX. Time for this old man to hit the sack it's 12:01AM here as I'm posting this. I'll kick this around and reply tomorrow.
Stay warm and good luck with the situation there. Has not been much better in WV.


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

If you don't need to power 240V appliances, you can still wire a smaller generator to your panel, or you can install a sub panel for just the circuits you want to run. A 120V generator will only be able to power one leg of a panel, so the breakers for those circuits would all need to be on that same leg. I never liked the idea of running extension cords. You could use the second generator for one or two bigger items like the portable AC unit using a cord.

I went with the Honda EU7000is inverter style since it powers the whole panel with 240V, has clean inverter power, is super quiet, runs up to 18 hours on a tank, is portable, and is fuel injected so there is no carburetor to worry about. Expensive, but works great for me.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Old man here said:


> I hope you guys are ok down there, I have two sisters in TX. Time for this old man to hit the sack it's 12:01AM here as I'm posting this. I'll kick this around and reply tomorrow.
> Stay warm and good luck with the situation there. Has not been much better in WV.


Thank you sir, we managed to escape mostly unscathed.



Browse Deweb said:


> If you don't need to power 240V appliances, you can still wire a smaller generator to your panel, or you can install a sub panel for just the circuits you want to run. A 120V generator will only be able to power one leg of a panel, so the breakers for those circuits would all need to be on that same leg.


This was also another consideration... ideally, yes, I would like to have the ability to just "plug in" the house to the genny, but the cost must be high to have a licensed electrician rewire everything at the panel. What's a ballpark price tag for that?


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## Browse Deweb (Jan 16, 2021)

Babaghanoush said:


> Thank you sir, we managed to escape mostly unscathed.
> 
> 
> 
> This was also another consideration... ideally, yes, I would like to have the ability to just "plug in" the house to the genny, but the cost must be high to have a licensed electrician rewire everything at the panel. What's a ballpark price tag for that?


I had an electrician install and wire the input box which was about 10 FT from the main panel, the generator breaker, reroute some circuits and install the interlock kit and he charged me $500, but I'm in an expensive part of NY and we get gouged here. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find an electrician to do it for less. One to 2 hours of labor I would guess if you supply the parts.

Between the Honda generator, 100 FT 240V 30A cable, input box, interlock kit, 12VDC siphon kit, new gas cans, new breakers and the electrician's time, I probably spent $6k on my backup generator solution. It was well worth it for me just for the peace of mind. Losing power for 3 days this past summer was a breeze with the new system. It already saved me over $1k in potentially lost food (2 full sized refrigerators, one full sized freezer and one half sized freezer...all full due to COVID preparations).

The good thing is that if I ever move to a new home, I can take most of that stuff with me, with the exception of the input box and the interlock kit.


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## 38438 (Dec 27, 2020)

i have a 17kw generac that takes up no more space than a 11 or 12 it runs my whole house, well pump ,hot water heater , you name it, last long outage it used 145 gallons of propane for 6 days 
so why 2 smaller when one works as well


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

captchas said:


> i have a 17kw generac that takes up no more space than a 11 or 12 it runs my whole house, well pump ,hot water heater , you name it, last long outage it used 145 gallons of propane for 6 days
> so why 2 smaller when one works as well


Do those large Generacs have a low THD so they can safely run electronics, computers, etc? I can't find details on that on their spec sheets. That's part of the reason why I was considering 2 units: a 2-3kW inverter for the sensitive electronics, and a mid-size generator for the appliances and such.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

Babaghanoush said:


> So glad I stumbled upon this forum, so much useful info! I still have questions though 😏
> 
> I'm on the Gulf Coast and have been planning for a long time to get a generator for hurricane season, but after this great Texas winter blackout, I'm definitely following through now. I calculated the necessary loads and thought I should get a Generac GP 6500 or 8000, _but then_ I learned about total harmonic distortion and am thinking I need to get a smaller inverter for the electronics and maybe the GP 6500 will suffice for fridge, chest freezer, portable AC unit, and coffee maker or toaster oven. This would also be a more affordable option for me instead of getting a single inverter with low THD that's big enough to support all the loads.
> 
> ...


Check these out:





Portable Generators - Champion Power Equipment


Powering Your Life




www.championpowerequipment.com





I have the Model# 100519 6250 Watt Inverter.
I also have a Generac GP15000E. The Generac GP series are not low THD models.

I have high regards for Champion products. The one I have now is the second one I have owned.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Check to see whether your utility allows the GenerLink meter-mounted transfer switch. 15 minutes to install and you can take it with you if you move. Love mine!


Transfer Switch | Global Power Products


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## 38438 (Dec 27, 2020)

Babaghanoush said:


> Do those large Generacs have a low THD so they can safely run electronics, computers, etc? I can't find details on that on their spec sheets. That's part of the reason why I was considering 2 units: a 2-3kW inverter for the sensitive electronics, and a mid-size generator for the appliances and such.


i don't know the real answer but can say i have run my home computers and BIZ server while on it with zero issues for the almost 600 hours that read on my running time meter


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

First off remember, if you're worried about THD, most all of the whole house units *are not* inverter type generators. And they are *designed* to run your entire house, and everything in it. THD is way overstated anyway. I have 2 Westinghouse 9,500 watt, dual fuel models. They have a THD of, "less than 23%". Which most of these "clean power" guys will throw up their hands in horror at.

Yet I have run both of my desktop computers, a laptop computer, 3 flat screen TV's, (one with a DVD player operating), and 2 freezers, and a microwave thrown in just for kicks. *Everything ran just fine.* If it weren't for the cords and the noise outside, you wouldn't know the power wasn't coming from the meter.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

billt said:


> First off remember, if you're worried about THD, most all of the whole house units *are not* inverter type generators. And they are *designed* to run your entire house, and everything in it. THD is way overstated anyway. I have 2 Westinghouse 9,500 watt, dual fuel models. They have a THD of, "less than 23%". Which most of these "clean power" guys will throw up their hands in horror at.
> 
> Yet I have run both of my desktop computers, a laptop computer, 3 flat screen TV's, (one with a DVD player operating), and 2 freezers, and a microwave thrown in just for kicks. *Everything ran just fine.* If it weren't for the cords and the noise outside, you wouldn't know the power wasn't coming from the meter.


Good point. Does it have to do with a larger unit having more stable power? Or how many or types of loads it's running? And out of curiosity, do you have those electronics plugged into power conditioners or UPS's? Wondering if that would help alleviate the "dirty power" problem.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

Babaghanoush said:


> Good point. Does it have to do with a larger unit having more stable power? Or how many or types of loads it's running? And out of curiosity, do you have those electronics plugged into power conditioners or UPS's? Wondering if that would help alleviate the "dirty power" problem.


I have my desktop computers on a couple of those large back up power units. You know, the kind that beep every 10 seconds the power is off. And drive my little dog crazy in the process. I don't know how much they "clean up" the power, if they do at all. I'm not sure if the size of the generator has anything to do with how much or how little THD it has. THD figures are all over the map on these units. And the numbers published are anything but precise. It is usually given as a "less than" number. Which means it most likely fluctuates under different load conditions.

But if it's "clean power" you're after, the only sure way to get it is with an inverter unit. How much it is or isn't necessary, is up to the individual. As always with these things YMMV.


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## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

One thing to remember is that inverters can go bad and start sending out weird stuff too. 

I suspect the cheaper ones go bad first, generally speaking.

I just replaced a $500 thermostat on my heat pump. It was a victim of the ice storm when the utility power went off and seemingly sent some bad stuff that killed the device. Who knows?


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

Airstreamer67 said:


> One thing to remember is that inverters can go bad and start sending out weird stuff too.


Very true. More parts equal more parts to fail. And many of these electronic parts used in these units.... Most ALL of these units, are generic. Look under the hood of your American car, and you would be surprised at how many electronic parts and units come from China. They were probably designed here, but mass produced there. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just that most people don't stop to think globalization effects ALL brands. Not just the less expensive one's.


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## Stpage40 (Feb 26, 2021)

Babaghanoush said:


> So glad I stumbled upon this forum, so much useful info! I still have questions though 😏
> 
> I'm on the Gulf Coast and have been planning for a long time to get a generator for hurricane season, but after this great Texas winter blackout, I'm definitely following through now. I calculated the necessary loads and thought I should get a Generac GP 6500 or 8000, _but then_ I learned about total harmonic distortion and am thinking I need to get a smaller inverter for the electronics and maybe the GP 6500 will suffice for fridge, chest freezer, portable AC unit, and coffee maker or toaster oven. This would also be a more affordable option for me instead of getting a single inverter with low THD that's big enough to support all the loads.
> 
> ...


I wired a 50 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker in my main panel. Installed a hardware interlock on main and 50 amp breaker that generator is wired to. It allows only one or the other to be live at a time. WGen9500DF hooked up to my natural gas and it runs my entire house including a/c and all appliance, electronics as normal. I too am on the Texas Gulf coast and bought mine after the last hurricane threat and it came in handy this past freeze and power outage.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

Stpage40 said:


> ........... WGen9500DF hooked up to my natural gas and it runs my entire house including a/c and all appliance, electronics as normal........


Does it run on natural gas with the unit on the propane setting? Or did you have to make some modifications?


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## Stpage40 (Feb 26, 2021)

billt said:


> Does it run on natural gas with the unit on the propane setting? Or did you have to make some modifications?


If ran on NG right out of the box. I was expecting to change out the propane regulator that came with it with one designed for NG ($75) but I didn’t have to because it ran almost two days straight on NG without missing a beat! No mods needed except not using the high pressure propane bottle regulator that came on the hose.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

Stpage40 said:


> If ran on NG right out of the box. I was expecting to change out the propane regulator that came with it with one designed for NG ($75) but I didn’t have to because it ran almost two days straight on NG without missing a beat! No mods needed except not using the high pressure propane bottle regulator that came on the hose.


So, you are running low pressure NG tee'd off from the low pressure side of the meter, straight into the threaded input on the regulator on the unit? (I'm just trying to understand your setup, because it's worth knowing if I ever have to do the same).


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## Generator-Jim (Mar 4, 2021)

Why bother with two units when one will do the job cheap/easy/clean/quiet?

WEN GN625i 6250-Watt RV and Transfer-Switch-Ready 120V/240V Open Frame Inverter Generator

Put a L14-30R inlet into your home panel.


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## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

Two units are like flying an airplane with two engines: if one fails, the other gets you home.

Been there, done that.

Also, you can use the units in sequence: when one gets low on fuel, start the second one to take over while the hot one cools down and is ready for refueling and, if due, oil changing.

Pay you money. Take your choice.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

Airstreamer67 said:


> Two units are like flying an airplane with two engines: if one fails, the other gets you home.


Good analogy. The aircraft industry, along with the space program uses redundancy to increase safety. Dual magnetos and spark plugs, multiple fuel pumps, radios, instruments, etc. It works the same with anything else. Cars, tools, guns, etc. The more you have, the better your chances are of not being without when you require it the most.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

YUP!
amen!
always have a back up plan...
for me i use 4 smaller gens..
i run them in parallel.
and have meters on the main breaker panel so i can watch run power.
if i need more power i fire up another gen...
99% of the time i can get by with a eu2200i generator in the spring fall and winter to power the whole house.
summer is tricky with air con...
so a least 2 gens or 3 if it is super hot out like over 100 deg f...


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Appreciate all the replies. I'm now leaning towards one "larger" ~$1000 generator plugged into the house circuit, whether that's a transfer switch, input box, or a Generlink. I'll have to figure out the best option based on what I can afford.

2 generators was only a consideration to use a smaller inverter for electronics. If the larger, higher quality ones (e.g. Westinghouse) are suitable for running electronics, then I don't need the smaller inverter. And 2 larger generators for redundancy is going to go over budget with the other factors like installing a transfer switch.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Stpage40 said:


> I wired a 50 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker in my main panel. Installed a hardware interlock on main and 50 amp breaker that generator is wired to. It allows only one or the other to be live at a time. WGen9500DF hooked up to my natural gas and it runs my entire house including a/c and all appliance, electronics as normal. I too am on the Texas Gulf coast and bought mine after the last hurricane threat and it came in handy this past freeze and power outage.


What sort of AC are you running? Is it something like a window unit, or a whole-home HVAC system? I have a 3.5 ton system and the search results I've been able to find indicate a very large (at least 14kW) generator would be required.


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## Stpage40 (Feb 26, 2021)

Babaghanoush said:


> What sort of AC are you running? Is it something like a window unit, or a whole-home HVAC system? I have a 3.5 ton system and the search results I've been able to find indicate a very large (at least 14kW) generator would be required.


2.5 Ton whole house system.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

better off using those little portable room air con units when on gen set...
way less fuel on a smaller gen set.


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## Stpage40 (Feb 26, 2021)

iowagold said:


> better off using those little portable room air con units when on gen set...
> way less fuel on a smaller gen set.


Running off NG not a problem.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

the smaller gens run on less NG..
lol
yea i have tri fuel hondas eu2000i and eu22000i and then for larger power honda eu7000is generators.
and yes NG rocks!
no need to store large amounts of gasoline and expect it to be pure after 5 years of sitting!
GRIN!
same on LP.
but you have to store that...
kinda tricky in most city's these days...
the fire guys do not like large LP tanks in town...


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Stpage40 said:


> I wired a 50 amp plug to a 50 amp breaker in my main panel. Installed a hardware interlock on main and 50 amp breaker that generator is wired to. It allows only one or the other to be live at a time. WGen9500DF hooked up to my natural gas and it runs my entire house including a/c and all appliance, electronics as normal. I too am on the Texas Gulf coast and bought mine after the last hurricane threat and it came in handy this past freeze and power outage.


The WGen9500DF looked like a good option but is probably overkill for me. I won't be running the HVAC system, just a small room unit to keep us as comfortable as possible if when the power goes out. I wouldn't even plan to use other power hogs like the water heater or stove. We have a camping stove and a small stockpile of fuel cans. Based on my loads tally spreadsheet, the max running loads if only running one small appliance at a time (i.e. only Mr. Coffee or toaster or microwave at once) is just under 5kW, and peak just under 10kW. I would likely go with the WGen7500DF or similar. My electrician recommended Duromax, I think the XP10000HX would suit my needs.



Generator-Jim said:


> Why bother with two units when one will do the job cheap/easy/clean/quiet?
> 
> WEN GN625i 6250-Watt RV and Transfer-Switch-Ready 120V/240V Open Frame Inverter Generator
> 
> Put a L14-30R inlet into your home panel.


I'm really leery of an inverter of that size that goes for around $700. TGTBT?



iowagold said:


> better off using those little portable room air con units when on gen set...
> way less fuel on a smaller gen set.


I concur, no need to upsize drastically just to cool the entire house. Our 12k BTU portable and a couple box fans to move it around is all that's necessary.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

take inventory on the exact power needs, 120 vac and if you need the 240 vac for like well pump etc.
and report back.
i like to have at least 50% more gen than you need...
so if you need 2000 watts at 120 vac then use a 4000 watts worth of generator.
that way you are not working the gen to death...

for me in the winter i can run on 760 watts! no kidding!
that is with fridge freezer furnace fan and computers and lights.
it was way too close for the little eu1000i gen so i upgraded to the eu2200i honda.

for hot summer that is a different thing... 
so i set up the system so i could run up to 4 of the eu2200i gens if i need them for ac units and dehumidifiers.
so far all i have had to run is two gens as the super hot has not been here when the power is out..
but i was able to switch from the mbr ac unit to the LR ac unit to keep the temps under 75 deg f.

I will be adding a couple of 10-13 k btu portable ac units this season and use the large dryer style vents for the hot air exhaust of the ac unit.
still shopping the good deal and good model on those yet... i would love to find maybe a good mini split inverter unit that is 120 vac... but so far they are not name brand units....

pm me if you need help with the power calculation!
or the gen inlet.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

And now another issue to add to the equation... the more I read about "protecting sensitive electronics with a UPS," the more I question that because I'm seeing a lot of posts about UPSs being especially sensitive to less than ideal generator power.

The UPSs I have are the $100-200 range Cyberpower that their site explicitly state are not "generator compatible." This is having me more strongly consider a smaller inverter with smooth stable power just for the UPSs that uphold all of the electronics, then a mid-size non-inverter for the heavier load appliances.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

they work ok on the eu series of honda gens.
i like the apc brand the best.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

I'm running Cyberpower Battery Backup on both of our desktops, monitors, and printers, with both of my Westinghouse 9,500's. They operate just fine. Even when my laptop is plugged into it as well. Because of that I've long left the whole "clean power" concern in my rear view mirror.


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## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

The UPS units I've seen seem to have square-wave characteristics similar to my cheap inverters used for camping. On the other hand, the inverters seem to work OK for me, including operating the camper's 120VAC refrigerator from the 12VDC battery while on the road. But as far as "clean" power, I wonder.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Airstreamer67 said:


> The UPS units I've seen seem to have square-wave characteristics similar to my cheap inverters used for camping. On the other hand, the inverters seem to work OK for me, including operating the camper's 120VAC refrigerator from the 12VDC battery while on the road. But as far as "clean" power, I wonder.


My truck has a built-in inverter but I've never really used it. It maxes out at 400w, so it's not exactly a powerhouse. There's not really much you can do with it. But I have the same concerns. My understanding is that you can use square wave inverters with electronics for short periods of time with no issues since most have their own DC converters.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

I am at the age where I don't worry about stuff like I did when I was younger. And generally speaking, over thought everything. Now I generally employ the, "I I W I D W A I" principal. "If It Works I Don't Worry About It". Thus far it has served me well. Nothing has ever been damaged. And it frees up my head for other, more pleasurable thoughts.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

Airstreamer67 said:


> The UPS units I've seen seem to have square-wave characteristics similar to my cheap inverters used for camping. On the other hand, the inverters seem to work OK for me, including operating the camper's 120VAC refrigerator from the 12VDC battery while on the road. But as far as "clean" power, I wonder.


Here you go.
APC and Cyber-Power UPS.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Old man here said:


> Here you go.
> APC and Cyber-Power UPS.


Thanks for pointing those out. I started reading posts this weekend about the various output waveforms for gens and UPSs and was getting my shorts in a knot worrying about it. My last post was essentially getting at the UPSs supposedly not handling voltage instability from a genset, especially with variable loads cycling on/off affecting the gen's output.
* pulls little bit of remaining hair out in frustration *


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

Babaghanoush said:


> Thanks for pointing those out. I started reading posts this weekend about the various output waveforms for gens and UPSs and was getting my shorts in a knot worrying about it. My last post was essentially getting at the UPSs supposedly not handling voltage instability from a genset, especially with variable loads cycling on/off affecting the gen's output.
> * pulls little bit of remaining hair out in frustration *


You can lower the sensitivity to incoming power quality on these UPS units either manually or using the software for them.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Old man here said:


> You can lower the sensitivity to incoming power quality on these UPS units either manually or using the software for them.


Mine only allow me to change the upper and lower voltage thresholds. I contacted tech support and this is their response:

_Usually when a UPS is on battery power during generator operation it is because the generator is not putting out a stable AC frequency. The unit is designed to switch to battery [if] the input frequency slews at a rate greater than 0.5 Hz per second in order to protect your connected equipment. This protection can’t be disabled as it would expose your equipment to potential damage from poor quality power. _

Part of the reason why I started to question whether an inverter would be better suited for the electronics, specifically the ones downstream of the UPSs.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

i have not had an issue with the apc pro units and the eu2200i gens.
rock solid.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

** UPDATE **
After much hemming and hawing, I ended up purchasing the Westinghouse WGen9500DF. Based on the reviews (here and on retail websites), it seemed like it would do what I want.

Today I ran a critical loads test, partly to validate the genset efficacy given the high THD and concerns running electronics, but also because I will be having my electrician come out soon to install an upgraded circuit breaker box with an interlock kit and generator inlet, and utility power will be shut off for most of the day (at worst, hopefully) while that's being done. I wanted to make sure I could run all those loads (including some "sensitive electronics") just on extension cord power temporarily.

Test loads: full size fridge in the kitchen, mid-sized deep freeze in the garage, 12k BTU portable AC unit, 2 box fans, and 2 Cyberpower UPS units running all of the network electronics and computers necessary for the wife and I to work from home.

Connectivity: 25ft Conntek 30A cord with 4x 15A outlets run from the WGen on the back patio into the house, then major loads split up to balance as much as possible between the 2 120V buses, each on their own extension cord: fridge & freezer on one, AC and electronics on the other. The AC was on a 25ft 12 gauge cord, the fridge and freezer each on a 14 gauge cord to get to those parts of the house. The box fans and each UPS were connected to the last outlet of the 30A cord using a surge protector power strip... I'm sure a safety inspector would've given me h-e-double-hockey-sticks for all this daisy-chaining mess.

Fired up the WGen, started connecting loads one at a time, made sure compressor motors turned on and monitored everything. The _*only *_hiccups that occurred were when the AC compressor started up. Prior to this test, I measured the AC from a house outlet using a Klein multimeter to get the amperage, and a TrickleStar "killawatt" meter from Amazon to get the wattage. The Klein is nice because it will record max current to catch those pesky startup transients that are a fraction of a second that both meters can miss. The Klein showed the AC startup peak was 19 amps... which was also part of the reason for this critical loads test because I wasn't sure that startup current would cause bigger problems (i.e. circuit breaker tripping on the generator... not that it should since it is rated to support much higher startup than that... call me overly cautious... or paranoid).

The hiccups that occurred were both UPSs switching to battery power for a few seconds, then back over to input power from the WGen once the high current startup condition subsided. And none of the electronics exhibited any issues.

I would call this a success and expect the WGen will be plenty adequate hooked up to the house in an outage situation.

That is all, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.


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## Stpage40 (Feb 26, 2021)

Babaghanoush said:


> ** UPDATE **
> After much hemming and hawing, I ended up purchasing the Westinghouse WGen9500DF. Based on the reviews (here and on retail websites), it seemed like it would do what I want.
> 
> Today I ran a critical loads test, partly to validate the genset efficacy given the high THD and concerns running electronics, but also because I will be having my electrician come out soon to install an upgraded circuit breaker box with an interlock kit and generator inlet, and utility power will be shut off for most of the day (at worst, hopefully) while that's being done. I wanted to make sure I could run all those loads (including some "sensitive electronics") just on extension cord power temporarily.
> ...


You can install a hard start kit on your a/c to lighten the load on your gen when a/c kicks on if needed.


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

A microair soft start would be even better.


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Ok, now I'm very curious about these hard start and soft start devices, not only for the portable AC, but for the 3.5 ton central unit... wondering if the WGen could run the central system...


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

it might with a soft start!
they sure lower the start up current..
way way better than a hard start!
and better on the compressor motor as well.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

@Babaghanoush - just a thought. If you are using tanked fuel, as opposed to utility natural gas that may be piped in to your property, then run time for your fuel supply is going to be important. No matter what "fuel" you run the amount you use is important to know, but at least if you have the fuel piped in you aren't limited to what you have on-hand. So with that said - if you rely on fuel from tanks (and keep in mind even utility natural gas can be cut - that happened in Texas this late winter/early spring) then how long you can run your generator off of that fuel supply you do have on hand may become critical. If you only have 1 generator you are stuck with what ever its' fuel consumption is. If you have multiple generators then you have some flexibility in which engine/fuel consumption you want to run for what loads.

Case in point - up until now I've had an open frame ~2600 watt generator and a Honda EU2200i inverter. Once I got the inverter it became my primary generator - namely because of the noise. However, the times we've had power outages as of late the open frame is what gets hooked up. At that point when the house power goes down there are numerous things that are powered - ceiling fans, refrigerators (2), and lights - so since there are decent loads the open frame, though it does burn more fuel, is warranted. If I am running portable power and have a few astronomy set ups (computers, digital telescopes, fans, etc, etc) running, for example, the inverter at idle sipping fuel will last a whole weekend on a tank. Likewise, if we end up with an extended outage at the house and I have to ration fuel the option of trimming loads to the essentials and staggering what others may need to run is possible on the inverter to get by. And I can run significantly longer on the inverter on the same fuel supply as the open frame. The inverter, with a light load, will run 8-9 hours on less than a gallon of gas. With a moderate load 6 hours is still a reality. So house back up, lets say, is in that 6 hour range. With a 40gal fuel supply (if all my tanks are topped off I can hold over 50gal, but don't have that much around normally) that is 240 hours of run time, or 10 days. Mind you, thats not running AC but if we had to hunker in and stretch things as far as we could on what we had we could do it.

The WGen9500DF comes out to about .55gal/hr @ 1/2 load. At that rate on the same 40gal fuel supply that is down to 72 hours run time - from 240 hours, or almost 1/3 the run time.

The concerns I have with generator power, at any time, always comes back to what do I fuel it with. In the past that's always been gasoline as I always have it anyway for other power equipment and boats. However, in a major power outage that might not be attainable. We have natural gas piped in here so that is a no-brainer - no tank, just hook up. However, we can't rely on that always being there. So the other fuel that is a possibility is propane. Between gasoline and propane that is two options for possibly being able to acquire fuel, but still no absolute. So having the option of a small, very fuel efficient generator, is some assurance that we can have something to run if we need to. And we can drain vehicle tanks for generator supply if we really were at the end of the rope on fuel (siphon hose through the fill port and compressed air to get the siphon going).

Options are a wonderful thing. With all your eggs in one basket you get what you get.

Last point - watch your maintenance carefully. If your unit has pressurized oil have oil filters stocked along with a supply of oil. Your initial oil change will be relatively soon. Then after that the time between will spread apart. Stay on track with that. In extended periods of operation that can be hard to do, but you have to do it otherwise you'll end up blowing up your generators' engine. Changing the oil is a smaller nuisance than loosing the generator entirely. Also pay attention to air filters and spark plugs. Your operators/owners manual should describe what all you need to watch.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yup tri fuel is the way to go for sure!
then you have choices!


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## Babaghanoush (Feb 21, 2021)

Unfortunately we don't have natural gas lines in our neighborhood so I'm stuck with gasoline or propane. I have several gasoline cans but I should look into a larger propane tank as a backup. I saw someone show their setup on another thread where they have a 40-gal propane bottle in their gen shed for backup fuel.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Babaghanoush said:


> Unfortunately we don't have natural gas lines in our neighborhood so I'm stuck with gasoline or propane. I have several gasoline cans but I should look into a larger propane tank as a backup. I saw someone show their setup on another thread where they have a 40-gal propane bottle in their gen shed for backup fuel.


If you have vehicle access - you might look in to a larger stationary tank. If it were me, that would be what I would do.

I have many propane tanks. One of which is a 100lb (tank is around 75lbs so with 100lbs LP its about 175lbs total). It is a pain in the butt to move it. I just loaded it this evening - with a winch in the truck bed, tailgate ramps, and a dolly. If you have 3 people, or 2 strong ones that don't mind a back ache afterwards, you can load it manually. Here the only 2 tanks I have, though, are the 100lb now and a 20lb. I am unsure what the run time is for a generator on either tank - I have yet to try it. However, I am not real sure even the 2 tanks topped off (120lbs total) would last me 24 hours on the big generator. So there again - having a large stationary tank would be ideal.

There are vertical 400-600lb* tanks you can get that are still somewhat "portable". They use them on construction sites in the winter time. Though, something like a 250-500 gallon* tank would be ideal.

*There are two units for tank sizing - pounds and gallons. The smaller tanks are generally described in pounds and the larger tanks are generally described in gallons. Check online for charts or calculators to convert between the units.

If you can get a horizontal stationary tank set up and a truck can get access to fill it that would be the ideal set up. It is a pain in the butt moving heavy portable tanks. And a 20gal tank common with bbq grills won't last long at all on a good size generator. So if you were trying to go that route you better have a bazillion of those tanks around - also a pain in the butt.


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## billt (Dec 11, 2020)

I purchased this 40 pound model on wheels from my local Home Depot. It wasn't exactly cheap, but once I filled it and started moving it around, it was worth every penny I paid for it. At 68 years young, dragging around heavy full propane tanks are a PITA, to put it mildly.

This thing is a beauty! It also comes in a 100 pound model as well. That's 22 gallons of propane on wheels. You can use it either horizontally or in the vertical position. But it must be filled standing vertically.

You can get yourself a cheap set of tailgate ramps from Harbor Freight for around $60.00, and you can easily move them in and out of a truck bed single handedly, without breaking your back. I tend to look for things like this, that make life a little easier as I get older.

This thing really makes a lousy job very easy. I've never gotten it filled without someone asking me where I got it. This Fall I'm getting the 100 pounder as well. Standing on end it takes up very little space. The gauge even works relatively well. Most propane fuel gauges aren't worth a dam.









Flame King 40 lbs. Horizontal and Vertical HOG Propane Cylinder with Wheels YSN40HOG - The Home Depot


Introducing Flame Kings all NEW 40 lbs. Refillable HOG Propane Cylinder. Never run out of propane with its Type 1 Overflow Protection Device Valve and Built-in accurate gauge. Featuring the EZ-HANDLE collar design with a built-in formed handle with no sharp edges. Engineered with rugged, high...



www.homedepot.com













Flame King 100 lbs. Horizontal and Vertical HOG Propane Cylinder with Wheels YSN100HOGa - The Home Depot


Introducing Flame Kings all New 100 lbs. Refillable HOG Propane Cylinder. Never run out of propane with the Built-in accurate gauge. Featuring the EZ-HANDLE collar design with a built-in formed handle



www.homedepot.com


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea just make sure they are dot rated and that the local laws on transport are followed...
those loose tanks in a truck can be a real issue in an accident...
dot has lots of rules on lp and other gasses for transport...

look in to delivery trucks for lp...
some have good prices if you buy in the off season...
and then call them when needed.

make sure to check on local fire code and city code for storing LP..
there are limits in most larger towns depending on your zoning for the storage location.
and make sure you have the matching insurance as well.
LP can be a real problem if it starts venting...


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

billt said:


> I purchased this 40 pound model on wheels from my local Home Depot. It wasn't exactly cheap, but once I filled it and started moving it around, it was worth every penny I paid for it. At 68 years young, dragging around heavy full propane tanks are a PITA, to put it mildly.


That is a really slick idea - tank built like a hand truck. I like it. 

Although, my truck is an F350 so the tailgate is way up there (stock height, but still...) The ramp angle with the gate up that high is too steep to manually wheel stuff in and out. Theres no way those 2 wheel tanks would work, I'd have to have wheels on the other end also so I could lay it horizontal and winch up and in. 

*On top of it, when transporting tanks you need to transport them, if you have to transport them horizontally, with the "top" facing backwards and the "bottom" butted up against something solid in front. The reason for this is if the valve assembly were to fail and pop off the pressure in the tank would launch the tank the opposite direction. So if the valve assembly goes in first and you wreck, for example, the tank would shoot out of the arse end of the truck. If you have the tank strapped in with the bottom of the tank butted up against the front of the truck bed it has no where to go. *

This isn't moving the 100lb tank, but it is the same method I use when I'm wheeling anything and everything in and out of the truck. The tank gets strapped to a 4 wheel moving dolly (the kind made from wood planks with carpet bunks for moving furniture). I use a Superwinch Terra 45SR winch with a wireless remote. I have had to work on the brushes on the motor before (stuck brush wasn't contacting the rotor = wouldn't work, but easy fix). The winch is a life savor and with some creative rigging it can be used for a ton of different applications - lifting things, moving/flipping boats, skidding trees, you name it. In the truck bed I have it hooked to a steel bar that crosses the bed. The sides of the cross bar use 1.5" ratchet straps that hook to the front corner bed tie outs. By using the bar the force on those tie outs is more or less parallel to the bed rail. If I tried to link the tie outs with a strap the winch pulling in the middle would suck the tie outs in with a ton of force and damage the bed. 



















For what it's worth, if anyone is interested, that is a 1966 Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC welder (Round Top). I restored it. They don't make stuff like that like they used to. I got lucky with this one - price was right and it has the OEM (not retrofitted!) 3 wheel cart.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> make sure to check on local fire code and city code for storing LP..
> there are limits in most larger towns depending on your zoning for the storage location.
> and make sure you have the matching insurance as well.
> LP can be a real problem if it starts venting...


If you don't have NG piped in (either not at all or it is but the supply gets cut off) - how do you keep your generators going in an extended outage? Its in the numbers - the run time is based on fuel consumption and quantity. If you have a day's worth of fuel and an outage that is 7 days - where do you get the other 6 days worth of fuel?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

FlyFisher said:


> If you don't have NG piped in (either not at all or it is but the supply gets cut off) - how do you keep your generators going in an extended outage? Its in the numbers - the run time is based on fuel consumption and quantity. If you have a day's worth of fuel and an outage that is 7 days - where do you get the other 6 days worth of fuel?


good questions!
and this should be directed and asked for the fire chief and city govt where you live!
most folks who have gone through the latest disasters here in the states as well as other countries have in the last 15 years
will tell you it is hard to get fuel when the roads are closed. gas stations are closed.. etc!
and that natural gas is not an option when the trees with natural gas lines running near the roots are up rooted and the natural gas is turned off to a whole town.

so that is why we like the tri fuel idea. you have choices for fuel.
not all of your eggs in one basket thing!
natural gas works well for when you have natural gas!
LP well you have to have a BIG plan for that... and most city's have rules on large tank or several small tank LP storage as well as gasoline storage.
you have to look up the rules for your area of the country to make sure you are in compliance.

yes there are tricks for the rules!
maybe an dot approved aux gasoline tank in the bed of a truck or under the truck.
like proper rv tanks mounted to pass dot rules.
and make sure to follow the dot rules for transporting gasoline and LP.

no one said it was going to be easy!
make a good back up power plan and have fuel choices!

now if you are in the rural areas they rules are a bit different if there is miles to the next house.
some places will let you have a farm tank for gasoline if it is away from buildings...
but new rules from the dnr state you have to now have a proper apron for containing any tank leaks...
and now i hear the dnr is working on that you will have to have permits for any fuel over 100 gallons.
even in rural areas.

like i stated the rules are not the same every where..
so look up the rules for your area!


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