# Inverter Issue



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi guys. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what's going on with an inverter I just bought. It's a Wen GN400i. Very nice unit. Got it oiled and fueled on Saturday and tested it out. Started right up. Checked AC voltage with a true RMS multimeter which clocked in at 124.5 volts stable. So far, so good.

I checked to see the Hz output. I was expecting a clean and stable 60 Hz signal. Well, that's not what I got. The DMM started jumping from 1 KHz all the way up to 9 KHz and back again. That could not be correct, obviously. Thinking that the DMM might be malfunctioning, I tested the nearby wall outlet. It showed 60 Hz. I fired up my non-inverter genset and it showed a steady 59.7 Hz. So I knew the DMM was working fine.

I added a small load to the inverter to see if that would settle the Hz down so I could get a reading. Nope, no luck. I tried all of the outlets on the inverter, same reading. I tried different holes in the outlets, no difference.

I've seen DMMs have trouble reading Hz on gas generators before. Using a non-TRMS DMM on a non-inverter makes the meter go nuts when set to Hz. However, a True RMS meter is not supposed to be affected by that. I know, typically, high harmonic distortion is what makes reading frequency on non-inverter gensets difficult. The inverter should not have a lot of that, though. The point of inverters is that the power is supposed to be clean. 

I decided to connect a Shop Vac to see if that might change things. Same wild Hz readings. Eco mode on or off had no effect, either. I suspect the inverter is outputting at or around 60 Hz. I'm not sure what's causing the instrumentation errors other than very intense line noise, which is concerning for an inverter. 

I'm really stumped here. I don't know if I have a bad inverter board or bad cap on the board or if something is not connected that should be, or if all inverters tend to confuse TRMS meters (although I don't think so), or what is going on here. Anyone have any ideas they can share? Thanks!


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

What meter are you using? I have some "so called" good true RMS meters that do not like inverter power. They read voltage correctly but not Hz. I can plug one "so called" good meter in one socket, and a good Fluke meter in another socket. The Fluke will read 60 Hz, and the other meter will be all over the place. Voltage will read correctly on both meters.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> What meter are you using? I have some "so called" good true RMS meters that do not like inverter power. They read voltage correctly but not Hz. I can plug one "so called" good meter in one socket, and a good Fluke meter in another socket. The Fluke will read 60 Hz, and the other meter will be all over the place. Voltage will read correctly on both meters.


I have two meters at the house, the TRMS one is an AstroAI which is supposed to be a Fluke clone and I have a non-RMS DMM from Harbor Freight. Neither seems able to return an accurate Hz reading. I wasn't sure if there was something inherent about inverter power which confuses all but the best meters or if there is something about my inverter in particular which is making the meters crazy. I has assumed that because the signal is supposed to be much cleaner that at least the TRMS meter would have no trouble getting a Hz read. I have a couple of non-inverter gensets, but this is my first inverter. The TRMS has difficulty with my Firman generator but reads my Coleman Powermate with no issues. The Firman THD can get as high as 25% from what I understand, so I presume that's why Hz can be a bear to read even with a TRMS meter.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

I don't think you need to worry about the Hz output with your inverter generator. As long as the voltage is good, the Hz should be ok. I'm sure the issue is with your multimeter. 
The multimeter I have that gives me bad Hz readings is a Radio Shack 46-Range Digital Multimeter with PC Interface which is a pretty good meter. I have two Fluke meters and they both read a steady 60 Hz.


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## Airstreamer67 (Oct 3, 2020)

One simple test for proper Hz: plug an old-fashioned electric clock into the genset and compare the seconds hand with a stopwatch: 60 seconds = 60 Hertz. 59 = 59. 61 = 61. Etc.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

stick with a fluke meter...
cheap low cost meters will just make more work for you!.
the killawatt meters are ok for small generator work...
just to get you in the ball park.

but if you are to be serious about doing electrical and electronics work use a good fluke!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I don't really use DMMs very much, not really enough to get something high end like a Fluke. Although I'd love to have one! 

I suspect the Wen is generating at or around 60 Hz. I was just puzzled about the noise on the line when trying to measure it, given that inverters are supposed to be clean power. If the THD is in the 3-4KHz range, is that still considered clean power? In other words, let's say that the DC to AC conversion is not filtered well and that's what I'm picking up with the DMM... I'm thinking noise in that range is not a problem for electronics? Therefore, even though it's present, it's still considered clean power by genset standards. Does that make sense? 

In other words, the listed 3% THD is only in the bad range, where it actually matters. If so, that makes a lot more sense to me. I'm totally new to inverters, so I have no idea what kind of signal it puts out and how it's different from regular gensets. If the power was dirty in the 60 Hz range, that would be a lot more trouble for electronics, if my logic is correct.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

i think fluke meters start at 130.00...
the better ones run at 250-300...
fluke is an investment.
and yes they hold value!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> i think fluke meters start at 130.00...
> the better ones run at 250-300...
> fluke is an investment.
> and yes they hold value!


I was looking at Fluke meters about a year ago. I was trying to figure out the frequency output on a Coleman Powermate that my brother in law gave me. The generator was from around 2004 or so. He used it during the aftermath of Hurricane Gustav and then stuck it in his garage. It sat there for about 12 years. He had gotten a whole house generator, so he didn't need the Coleman anymore. It took quite a bit of TLC, but I got it back up and running again. I had read that the generator part was made by Generac, back before they sold the company. The Fluke clone I got reads the frequency perfectly, so I didn't see the need for anything beyond that until now. 

I'm sure a Fluke DMM would tell me my Wen is putting out 60 Hz. I'm just curious if I have a lot of line noise since my current DMM is reading wildly. Maybe I just need to break the inverter in. Since this is my first inverter, I'm not sure if the situation will improve. I really just need something that's not going to bake my electronics in the next power outage if I need to use inverter power.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea you might want to get your hands on a spectrum analyzer to see the full spectrum...
if you have any friends with hard core labs near by they might help you on this.

my last spectrum unit was $60K ... lol no lone out to others or letting them use it on that tool!!
there are places that lease them.
but if you are doing a big project.
check for them used on ebay...
and have them re certified.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> I was looking at Fluke meters about a year ago. I was trying to figure out the frequency output on a Coleman Powermate that my brother in law gave me. The generator was from around 2004 or so. He used it during the aftermath of Hurricane Gustav and then stuck it in his garage. It sat there for about 12 years. He had gotten a whole house generator, so he didn't need the Coleman anymore. It took quite a bit of TLC, but I got it back up and running again. I had read that the generator part was made by Generac, back before they sold the company. The Fluke clone I got reads the frequency perfectly, so I didn't see the need for anything beyond that until now.
> 
> I'm sure a Fluke DMM would tell me my Wen is putting out 60 Hz. I'm just curious if I have a lot of line noise since my current DMM is reading wildly. Maybe I just need to break the inverter in. Since this is my first inverter, I'm not sure if the situation will improve. I really just need something that's not going to bake my electronics in the next power outage if I need to use inverter power.


I'm sure your generator is just fine. Like I said before my Fluke reads the Hz on my inverter right at 60Hz. My RadioShack digital multi meter gives Hz readings all over the place.
I wouldn't worry about the readings you were getting.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> I'm sure your generator is just fine. Like I said before my Fluke reads the Hz on my inverter right at 60Hz. My RadioShack digital multi meter gives Hz readings all over the place.
> I wouldn't worry about the readings you were getting.


I think you're right. I would be none the wiser had I not put a multimeter to it. It runs fine and power output is right on the money. I'm pleased to finally have an inverter rather than having to think of ways to smooth out the power from my other non-inverter gensets. My plan is to run the power through a Furman line conditioner before connecting the TV, router, DVD player, and other electronics. I'm hoping that will reduce any noise that's on the line. 

I want to use the non-inverter gensets for the window a/c units and fridges. The window shakers have electronic thermostats and controls, as do the fridges. Can I safely use them with the non-inverter generators? Specifically, I have a Coleman Powermate 6250 from around 2004 or so. I don't know if it has AVR from that vintage. I know my Firman does, but it's rated at up to 25% THD. That's a bit on the high side. No idea what the THD for the Coleman is, but it's probably not low. How safe would they be to use in those applications?


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> I think you're right. I would be none the wiser had I not put a multimeter to it. It runs fine and power output is right on the money. I'm pleased to finally have an inverter rather than having to think of ways to smooth out the power from my other non-inverter gensets. My plan is to run the power through a Furman line conditioner before connecting the TV, router, DVD player, and other electronics. I'm hoping that will reduce any noise that's on the line.
> 
> I want to use the non-inverter gensets for the window a/c units and fridges. The window shakers have electronic thermostats and controls, as do the fridges. Can I safely use them with the non-inverter generators? Specifically, I have a Coleman Powermate 6250 from around 2004 or so. I don't know if it has AVR from that vintage. I know my Firman does, but it's rated at up to 25% THD. That's a bit on the high side. No idea what the THD for the Coleman is, but it's probably not low. How safe would they be to use in those applications?


I don't think you need to worry about your other appliances with the other generators.
People have been running their homes on standard generators for years. Most people don't even have a concept about THD and dirty power. The main thing is to monitor the voltage output.
I just posted the results of the output of my big Generac. The THD changes with different loads ant kind of loads.
Just the basics posted here:








Generator Oscilloscope Waveform Measurements


Adding to the waveforms so they are on this main thread. Here is a Generac Ultrasource 15000. Sampled through a 12V transformer. This is at 6000watts (3K per phase) load. There is some frequency drift. If I turn on persistence (digital oscope), you'll see there is some frequency drift...




www.powerequipmentforum.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> I don't think you need to worry about your other appliances with the other generators.
> People have been running their homes on standard generators for years. Most people don't even have a concept about THD and dirty power. The main thing is to monitor the voltage output.
> I just posted the results of the output of my big Generac. The THD changes with different loads ant kind of loads.
> Just the basics posted here:
> ...


The voltage output in the Coleman is 122 volts and 59.7 Hz with no load. I'm wondering if I need to bump that up a bit, maybe to around 125 VAC with no load. 

I haven't checked the Firman in a while, so I don't recall the output on it. I haven't adjusted the idle on it, so I presume it's still good to go.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

An interesting update to the story that I think you guys will like. 

This morning, I finally got a chance to play around with the inverter. I replaced the Torch spark plug with an NGK plug. I tested voltage and Hz again. Same results, voltage stable at 124.5 and Hz all over the place. I pulled out my line conditioners to see what effect they might have. 

I tried the Furman first. I was able to get 59.99 Hz, but it would still bounce around a bit. Not nearly as badly as without it, but it wasn't very stable. But, the good news is that I was able to finally get an accurate reading, momentarily, at the correct Hz. So, the Furman power conditioner certainly was a big help in the right direction. 

The big news was with my Tripp Lite Isobar conditioner. That seems to be the silver bullet. Solid 59.99 Hz reading, stable. Voltage read properly. Needless to say, I was very happy to see that. That was the first time I've tested the Isobar like that and I was impressed. I have a smaller one that I use with some florescent light fixtures in my kitchen that were causing a lot of noise on the circuit and it works very well for that. I had my fingers crossed that I might see a solution by using one with the inverter. 

I also tested one of the nicer surge protectors I have just to see if it might provide some benefit, but it didn't really do much to help with the Hz readings. I am stoked, to say the least. 

Thoughts, guys?


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> An interesting update to the story that I think you guys will like.
> 
> This morning, I finally got a chance to play around with the inverter. I replaced the Torch spark plug with an NGK plug. I tested voltage and Hz again. Same results, voltage stable at 124.5 and Hz all over the place. I pulled out my line conditioners to see what effect they might have.
> 
> ...


I have to say that you're good to go. I do suggest that you invest in a quality multi meter though.








fluke multimeter: Search Result | eBay


Buy and sell electronics, cars, fashion apparel, collectibles, sporting goods, digital cameras, baby items, coupons, and everything else on eBay, the world's online marketplace



www.ebay.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I think I will also use the Isobars with the regular gensets as well. They seem to quiet down a lot of the line noise. They won't cure a stepped sine wave, but it should be fine for the fridge and freezer until the lights come back on.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

we use isobars on all of the BIG screen tv projectors.
works great on the 24 foot projector.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> we use isobars on all of the BIG screen tv projectors.
> works great on the 24 foot projector.


I really like the Isobar power strips. They seem pretty heavy duty and do a good job of cleanup. 

My only concern now is that my inverter might be defective since my DMM was picking up a lot of noise. Of course, a high end Fluke DMM might not have picked up any of it at all and just shown 60 Hz straight from the outlet. It seems if I had a defective unit, I'd be seeing voltage flux as well, but I don't really know. Has anything I've described led any of you guys to believe I might have a defective inverter?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

a good wide band spectrum unit will show all of the inverter trash...

it could be an internal filter bad!
they use an LC ckt in the inverters to hold down the trash...

I am working on a set of school videos for 2021 / 2022 honda school that shows the trash for engineering class.
subtle differences in the inverter internals specs will show up as hash or signal trash...

all that stuff like time shift etc play in to the fq deviation.
and then power factor as well...

if you small electronics has real good power supplies and good filtering on the ac to dc converters
you will not notice the bad power...
but over time the filters will fail if they are feed a steady diet of super trash!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> a good wide band spectrum unit will show all of the inverter trash...
> 
> it could be an internal filter bad!
> they use an LC ckt in the inverters to hold down the trash...
> ...


I had posted this issue on another forum and there was speculation that my inverter might be defective. But, I told them that the problem I was running into was that I could not get technical support at Wen to understand what I was talking about. Even Tier 2 didn't seem to know what I was trying to tell them about the signal noise. They were mostly trained on how to get the engines up and running again. The electricals were not really part of their knowledge base. I don't know how I would explain to them any possible defects. The engine runs great. The inverter makes 124 volts steady at 60 Hz steady. For all I know, all of them do this and I'd have trouble with any inverter with my DMM. I simply don't know enough about inverters to make that determination. 

I'm probably being really nit-picky about it given that any items running on it would only run on it for a few days at a time, and rarely at that. I think OMH is right, that's it's probably not something to really worry about. If there's actually some defect, it's not affecting VAC or Hz in any way for some reason. Seems a defect would cause other issues as well, but I can't say for sure. I was thinking that other people may have seen something like this before and knew if it really meant there was an actual problem, and if so, where the smoking gun is. But no one seems to have seen anything like this, or maybe they've just never tested their inverters before so they don't know. I'd love to put the signal through a scope, but I've had no luck in finding someone with one. I really didn't want to have to buy one given a nice one is expensive and it's a tool I'd use exactly once. This has really been a complete head-scratcher for me since I had assumed that the DMM would not have any issues with getting readings on the signal, yet it did. I didn't want to return it only to get another one that does the exact same thing.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> I had posted this issue on another forum and there was speculation that my inverter might be defective. But, I told them that the problem I was running into was that I could not get technical support at Wen to understand what I was talking about. Even Tier 2 didn't seem to know what I was trying to tell them about the signal noise. They were mostly trained on how to get the engines up and running again. The electricals were not really part of their knowledge base. I don't know how I would explain to them any possible defects. The engine runs great. The inverter makes 124 volts steady at 60 Hz steady. For all I know, all of them do this and I'd have trouble with any inverter with my DMM. I simply don't know enough about inverters to make that determination.
> 
> I'm probably being really nit-picky about it given that any items running on it would only run on it for a few days at a time, and rarely at that. I think OMH is right, that's it's probably not something to really worry about. If there's actually some defect, it's not affecting VAC or Hz in any way for some reason. Seems a defect would cause other issues as well, but I can't say for sure. I was thinking that other people may have seen something like this before and knew if it really meant there was an actual problem, and if so, where the smoking gun is. But no one seems to have seen anything like this, or maybe they've just never tested their inverters before so they don't know. I'd love to put the signal through a scope, but I've had no luck in finding someone with one. I really didn't want to have to buy one given a nice one is expensive and it's a tool I'd use exactly once. This has really been a complete head-scratcher for me since I had assumed that the DMM would not have any issues with getting readings on the signal, yet it did. I didn't want to return it only to get another one that does the exact same thing.


I am not a Ham Radio user, but I was searching the web for inverter generator power quality, and came across a forum where a guy was discussing inverter generators that created noise on certain frequency channels on his ham radio. Probably picking up some of the high frequency output you may be seeing on your DMM. That guy was not concerned about the power quality, only irritated that it was happening.
The important issue here is that your generator is rated for 3% THD output.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> I am not a Ham Radio user, but I was searching the web for inverter generator power quality, and came across a forum where a guy was discussing inverter generators that created noise on certain frequency channels on his ham radio. Probably picking up some of the high frequency output you may be seeing on your DMM. That guy was not concerned about the power quality, only irritated that it was happening.
> The important issue here is that your generator is rated for 3% THD output.


That raises an interesting point, and one that I've been turning over in my head since trying to figure this out. The noise _might_ not be anything harmful. It's annoying that it could be there, but is it going to cause any actual problems? One of the selling points for me when I bought it is the rated 3% THD as well as a very good price. I'm starting to wonder that even if there is some kind of noise that's messing with my DMM readings... it's not anything that will make any practical difference in normal operation. And, the signal passed through the Isobar seems to clean up very nicely. At this point, I would not run anything straight from the inverter anyway, so all of this may be a phantom menace. Admittedly, it does make me feel better to know that this issue may be more common than you'd think since most inverter owners don't test their signal like we would.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> That raises an interesting point, and one that I've been turning over in my head since trying to figure this out. The noise _might_ not be anything harmful. It's annoying that it could be there, but is it going to cause any actual problems? One of the selling points for me when I bought it is the rated 3% THD as well as a very good price. I'm starting to wonder that even if there is some kind of noise that's messing with my DMM readings... it's not anything that will make any practical difference in normal operation. And, the signal passed through the Isobar seems to clean up very nicely. At this point, I would not run anything straight from the inverter anyway, so all of this may be a phantom menace. Admittedly, it does make me feel better to know that this issue may be more common than you'd think since most inverter owners don't test their signal like we would.


I'm going to go back to my first point. It's more of a DMM issue, not a generator issue.
Go forth young man, go forth.
Don't know where that came from. You're good to go.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea you are on the right track on the ham guys.
also any rf service guys should have the $ 60k worth of lab spectrum gear (new price)
I had one but it got legs and walked out of storage!
still waiting on another job contract that requires one to replace it.

knowing what you are looking at is the key when you do get the read out!!
make sure to shoot video as well as get the snap shot screen shots of the wave forms.

way above most tech line pay grade.
most will not know what you are talking about as they are scripted at the call centers.

most of the tier 5 tech guys are in locked labs.
(engineers)
lol
they do not let us out most of the time!!
GRIN!!
all that pointy head talk makes common folks heads explode!
we are a lethal group! 
LMAO!
a real womd (weapon of mass destruction)!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

It's just a relief to have a clean power option just in case we have another active storm season in my neck of the woods. I had been trying to figure out how to clean up the signal on my other gensets so I didn't stress about damaging electronics in the event I had to use them for several days. I realized I really needed to just get an inverter. I appreciate your help in getting it sorted.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yup spending the bucks in the right places is the trick to all of this!
plan the system.
over kill it!
and buy the good stuff the first time!
all good things to keep in mind!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Someone on the other board suggested that one or more of the diodes in the rectifier could be bad. Such a condition would cause lots of jitter with the voltage. However, voltage is stable at the outlet. Using an Isobar, Hz is stable as well. It seem to me that anything defective like that would show up across the board, not just for Hz and only from the outlet. That's what's thrown me off and suggested to me that the inverter doesn't have anything defective with any of the electrical components. It's simply how it is from the factory. I'm fine with that, it's just been frustrating not really knowing.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yup hard to tell on a sealed item...
if it was not sealed or potted boards you could test each part in an inverter.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I had a chance to run the inverter for about four hours yesterday. We hooked up an LED TV, Firestick, and a sound bar to inverter power. Burned about a half a tank of gas. It went well. No issues at all. I started the engine and let it warm up. I switched to eco mode, connected everything, and we watched Mr. Robot for several hours. Several times, I forgot we were using the inverter. I'm trying to get a little time on the break in oil so I can change it out for the upcoming season. 

I also fired up the Coleman Powermate. I bought an 8' copper coated grounding stake. I was only able to get it about 3' in the ground before I hit a really hard layer of soil. I connected the ground wire to the Coleman ground bolt and the other end to the stake. I'm still getting the wiring fault on the Isobar, however. Could the stake need to be deeper to correct the wiring fault or will it not matter? I can get a sledge hammer to see if I can drive the stake further into the ground if that might help. I was hoping a proper grounding would remove the wiring fault. What are your thoughts?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

take the garden hose and a soak er nozzle and let it water the ground for a day or so at super small stream..
then drive the stake.
they make drivers for sds hammer drills as well as they make attachments for concrete breakers to drive the stakes...

we made an attachment for the skid loader bucket to push them in fast for larger jobs were we use 4-6 ground stakes for the ground array.

make sure to get the utility locates before driving any stakes.

depending on the soil.. and how damp the area where the ground stake is located.
for good black dirt Iowa soil
we figure 50 amps per ground stake nom.
so for a 200 amp service we use 4 stakes.
and space the stakes 1 foot apart min.
and use good solid copper wire to connect them.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

It had rained for about five days prior to my trying to drive the stake in the ground, so it was about as soft as it gets. I didn't know if 3 feet was deep enough for the ground to read on the Isobar. It may not be deep enough, but I don't know enough about grounding to say for sure. We have a very high water table in my area. I would presume that would help, but I'm not sure.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

they like at least 6 foot deep or more on ground

what were you hitting at 3 feet??
rock or something else???

jimmy hoffa found? lol!
that is a standing joke here when digging or driving stakes and you hit something...

try moving the stake a few inches and drive again.
make sure to do the locates first!
just in case!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> they like at least 6 foot deep or more on ground
> 
> what were you hitting at 3 feet??
> rock or something else???
> ...


I'm not sure what I was hitting at around the 3' depth. I suspect that the lot was built up prior to the building of the home. The soil is likely a bit looser for the first few feet before you hit the harder bedding layer of clay. I noted in several areas around the house where I tried to drive the stake in, I could not get any further than around 3'. It's probably not rocks but simply a hard base layer of clay I'm hitting. I didn't have a big enough hammer to get it any deeper. Insert Michael Scott comment here. 

I don't think I'm hitting anything related to the house. The rod is now at the back of the house, near a fence line. Plus, I don't know that there is anything that would be running at that depth. No drain pipes, gas lines, or anything like that, which I presume enter the home from the street side. There is a septic system, but it's on the other side of the structure. I think it's that hard clay I mentioned. 

With only three feet in the soil, I didn't know if that was enough. I suspected it might not be and that is why I am continuing to get the wiring fault despite having the grounding properly connected. I've read stories about people trying to use tent stakes as grounding rods but it not working all that well.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

*click here for a 101 on grounding*
*and *
*click here for another basic grounding*
*and *
*click here for still another basic grounding*

*and this one for a bit more like class room*
*click here for tech info grounding*

yea i like 4 stakes in a row 1 to 3 feet apart for most 200 amp service
and run fat solid ground wire at least 4 gauge or larger if you can find it.
and run up to a ground black from each stake.
and super heavy to the meter and disconnect box.

ground stake over kill is nice for lightning areas of the country to help hold back a hit at the outside of the house.

some where here i have grounding for rf tx stations...
aarl has some good books on that as well...
a good read for lock down days!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I ordered a sledge hammer. I will try to drive the rod in to about seven feet if I can. If that doesn't cure the wiring fault, I'm not sure what else to do at that point.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> I also fired up the Coleman Powermate. I bought an 8' copper coated grounding stake. I was only able to get it about 3' in the ground before I hit a really hard layer of soil. I connected the ground wire to the Coleman ground bolt and the other end to the stake. I'm still getting the wiring fault on the Isobar, however. Could the stake need to be deeper to correct the wiring fault or will it not matter? I can get a sledge hammer to see if I can drive the stake further into the ground if that might help. I was hoping a proper grounding would remove the wiring fault. What are your thoughts?


Are you using extension cords to connect your Coleman to the Isobar? If so, your Coleman may have a "Floating Neutral". If so, that is what may be causing the wiring fault on your Isobar.
You can check by doing a continuity check on your generator with your multimeter. Test the Common to the Ground to see if there is continuity. 
You could also use one of these:
Klein Tools RT210 Outlet Tester, Receptacle Tester for GFCI / Standard North American AC Electrical Outlets, Detects Common Wiring Problems - - Amazon.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

No, I'm connecting the Isobar directly to the outlet. I haven't tried to connect using an extension cord. I suspect the Coleman does have a floating neutral since it was connected to a breaker box during Gustav back in 2008. That's why I was trying to find a way to effectively ground it. I don't know for sure that the wiring fault is being caused by bad or no grounding, but I presume that is what is causing the fault to appear. I can try to drive the grounding rod deeper into the ground, but I didn't know if that is what is casing the issue.


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## aandpdan (Oct 8, 2012)

If you have a "floating neutral" the Isobar fault is likely an open ground. A ground rod will NOT solve that problem. You need to bond the neutral and ground together.

In your home the ground and neutral are bonded at the first service panel.

The easy fix is to take a spare plug and run a jumper from the neutral (wide) terminal or silver screw to the ground green terminal. Plug it into a spare receptacle.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

aandpdan said:


> If you have a "floating neutral" the Isobar fault is likely an open ground. A ground rod will NOT solve that problem. You need to bond the neutral and ground together.
> 
> In your home the ground and neutral are bonded at the first service panel.
> 
> The easy fix is to take a spare plug and run a jumper from the neutral (wide) terminal or silver screw to the ground green terminal. Plug it into a spare receptacle.


If you plug that adaptor ground plug into a GFIC receptacle, it will trip the GFIC. Ask me how I know.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> No, I'm connecting the Isobar directly to the outlet. I haven't tried to connect using an extension cord. I suspect the Coleman does have a floating neutral since it was connected to a breaker box during Gustav back in 2008. That's why I was trying to find a way to effectively ground it. I don't know for sure that the wiring fault is being caused by bad or no grounding, but I presume that is what is causing the fault to appear. I can try to drive the grounding rod deeper into the ground, but I didn't know if that is what is casing the issue.


You would see the same results using an extension cord. The issue is not the ground, it is the disconnected neutral from the ground in the generator.
It is always a good idea to have a ground rod connection to any generator when not connected to the house electrical panel.
This is better than a sledge hammer to get that ground rod in. You can get these at any hardware store:
Amazon.com : MTB Fence Post Driver with Handle, 12LB Black T Post Pounder Hand Post Rammer for U Fence Post Wooden Post : Garden & Outdoor


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> You would see the same results using an extension cord. The issue is not the ground, it is the disconnected neutral from the ground in the generator.
> It is always a good idea to have a ground rod connection to any generator when not connected to the house electrical panel.
> This is better than a sledge hammer to get that ground rod in. You can get these at any hardware store:
> Amazon.com : MTB Fence Post Driver with Handle, 12LB Black T Post Pounder Hand Post Rammer for U Fence Post Wooden Post : Garden & Outdoor


Would the generator have come from the vendor in this condition, or is it a mod done to allow it to be connected directly to the breaker box?

My thought is if it's a mod, then I can reverse it. Reconnect the neutral to the ground, perhaps? I don't intend to use this generator in a direct connection like that.


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## aandpdan (Oct 8, 2012)

I don't see a GFCI on your generator. The plug mod I posted earlier will connect the neutral to ground bond.
The wiring diagram, page 31 in the owners manual illustrates a "floating neutral."

RV ready indicates it can be used with an RV, which may have a bonded (neutral to ground) service panel.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

aandpdan said:


> I don't see a GFCI on your generator. The plug mod I posted earlier will connect the neutral to ground bond.
> The wiring diagram, page 31 in the owners manual illustrates a "floating neutral."
> 
> RV ready indicates it can be used with an RV, which may have a bonded (neutral to ground) service panel.


My two other generators, a Wen and a Firman are RV ready, but neither throws a wiring fault. I'm guessing the floating neutral is not necessary for RV work?


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> My two other generators, a Wen and a Firman are RV ready, but neither throws a wiring fault. I'm guessing the floating neutral is not necessary for RV work?


RV's normally do not have a bonded neutral in them like a house electrical system does, this is because they rely on the power pedestal for the bond between the ground and neutral. RV ready generators are set up with the bonded neutral to act like the camp ground power pedestal. Try the plug mod as aandpdan stated if you don't have the GFIC outlets.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

One thing I've noticed with the Wen is that it's listed as having a floating neutral, not bonded. However, when I plug in the Isobar, I do *not* get a wiring fault. I have two other generators with floating neutrals and they both throw wiring faults on the Isobar, as expected. Why would the Wen not throw one as well since it's also not bonded? Shouldn't I get a fault with the Wen?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

check it with a good VOM.
you might find it does not have the same voltage on the frame.
think bleed resistors.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I just checked the manual and it doesn't specify if the neutral is bonded or floating. Sigh. The Generator Bible site lists the neutral as floating, but I'm not sure how they know that. I'm still looking but I have not been able to find any other information on it. 

I didn't think it was possible to have a floating neutral not not throw a wiring fault.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea... and it is always good to verify any gen before putting it in service...
make sure it is wired correctly and putting out the correct voltage etc.

we have seen some good ones over the years!
lots of outlets not wired right on the clone gens.
power to the frame stuff!!
WOW!
we always pull control panels an take a look...
loose bolts, screws etc!

lol spare parts loose in the magnets!
washers and bolts!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

The Wen is definitely a floating neutral. No idea why it's not throwing a wiring fault, though. That one confuses me.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

unless it does not like the waveform?


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

iowagold said:


> unless it does not like the waveform?


The Wen is an odd bird. It's an inverter, but I can't get a clean Hz reading with it using my DMM unless I use an Isobar. It has a floating neutral, yet unlike my other two generators with floating neutrals, it doesn't throw a wiring fault when using the Isobar. I'd love to throw a scope on it just to see what in the heck is going on. I don't have one, but I am eyeballing one. Maybe you guys can give me a heads up on the one I'm looking at, since I know literally nothing about them and I really want one that will tell me THD in addition to showing the wave form. 

Opinions on this one? 

Scope Option


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## drmerdp (Apr 10, 2018)

What brand of DMM? My cheap Klein gives me weird reading frequency readings that my better Klein and fluke do not. 

That oscilloscope looks pretty good, should do the trick... But a nice fluke meter might be more useful in the long run.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> What brand of DMM? My cheap Klein gives me weird reading frequency readings that my better Klein and fluke do not.
> 
> That oscilloscope looks pretty good, should do the trick... But a nice fluke meter might be more useful in the long run.


This is the DMM I have. I also have a Harbor Freight one, but it's not TRMS like the AstroAI. 

AstroAI

I can get an easy, stable read of the Hz on the Champion inverter I have. Even more weird, I have a Coleman Powermate that's about 16 years old and I can read Hz with the AstroAI. I think, back in those days, Generac actually made the generators for Coleman. So, I think it's a pretty good one, but I know little about it. 

I'd love to get a Fluke, but Fluke is really proud of their meters. Really proud. But they are nice, though, if you have the coin. I just need something to tell me why my Wen inverter is so weird.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> The Wen is an odd bird. It's an inverter, but I can't get a clean Hz reading with it using my DMM unless I use an Isobar. It has a floating neutral, yet unlike my other two generators with floating neutrals, it doesn't throw a wiring fault when using the Isobar. I'd love to throw a scope on it just to see what in the heck is going on. I don't have one, but I am eyeballing one. Maybe you guys can give me a heads up on the one I'm looking at, since I know literally nothing about them and I really want one that will tell me THD in addition to showing the wave form.
> 
> Opinions on this one?
> 
> Scope Option


That scope will not tell you the THD. You need a Power Analyzer to find out what the THD is. They are not cheap!
This is what I use:








Electronic Power Meter | Fluke 345 Power Quality Clamp Meter


The Fluke 345 combines the functions of an electronic power meter, power quality logger, data logger, & clamp meter to track & troubleshoot electrical loads.




www.fluke.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> That scope will not tell you the THD. You need a Power Analyzer to find out what the THD is. They are not cheap!
> This is what I use:
> 
> 
> ...


That Fluke looks amazing. But that price...

Even if I did electrical work professionally, I'm not sure I could justify such a purchase. To use only occasionally for a hobby? Yeah, that's a hard no-go. A scope is probably about as close as I'm going to get to detailed info about the power output on the gensets. 

The Wen has some strange behaviors that I'd love to figure out. That's why I was looking at getting a scope, although I don't know how much it would tell me.


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## Old man here (Nov 5, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> That Fluke looks amazing. But that price...
> 
> Even if I did electrical work professionally, I'm not sure I could justify such a purchase. To use only occasionally for a hobby? Yeah, that's a hard no-go. A scope is probably about as close as I'm going to get to detailed info about the power output on the gensets.
> 
> The Wen has some strange behaviors that I'd love to figure out. That's why I was looking at getting a scope, although I don't know how much it would tell me.


Basically it will show you what the sine wave looks like, voltage, and the Hz. You would need to buy a 100:1 probe to measure 120 or 240V.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Old man here said:


> Basically it will show you what the sine wave looks like, voltage, and the Hz. You would need to buy a 100:1 probe to measure 120 or 240V.


The scope I linked wouldn't come with suitable probes?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

it may not la..
most scopes have just basic probe kit...
unless it is a BIG hp or tectronics.
some of those have the expanded probe kits with them on the super expensive lab models.

yea that fluke rocks for sure!


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