# Full Rated Manual Transfer Switch vs Multicircuit



## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

Folks -
Thanks for all your help on my other thread (Contradictions & Confusion). I have a new question now. After meeting with an Electrician, he has convinced me to just do this right and put in a proper transfer switch. I'm ok with it I guess. However I'm still not on the same page with him on one item. He is suggesting a multicircuit transfer switch off my main panel...which I guess is pretty traditional. Since my house is broken up in to so many small circuits, trying to decide which ones to route to the switch have been a little painful. I suggested maybe going with a fully rated manual transfer switch at the service entry instead of off my main panel - which would allow me individual control of all the circuits at the main panel. Since my generator can't handle all of them at once, I'd need to shut most of them off before engaging the manual switch anyway, so why not just give me full access to all of them? His initial feeling was that this wouldn't work because I have a 110v generator, and the service entry is is 240v - and he wouldn't want my 220v appliances hit with 110v. Technically they wouldn't, because I would flip their breakers off before engaging the switch/generator.

Is there any reason I can't do a fully rated service entry switch? Any thoughts on why he might be pushing a multicircuit switch or why it might be preferable? Technically, the multicircuit swich has a 240v plug too...although no 220v appliances would be connected to the switch.

Just wondering how hard to push on this. A fully rated service entry switch seems like a better idea to me for future flexibility - but I also see very little chatter about them on the web.

Thanks for any thoughts/opinions...
LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

Yes, all of those options may be safely implemented.

The existing generator creates AC from an inverter and is't a terrific long-term solution.

The Siemens main load center panel I installed, as-linked in this reply, permits a manual transfer switch of whatever size is required.

Note that if implementing a whole house transfer switch then all the wiring must be appropriately-sized and properly-installed. This means thick wiring routed in conduit, plus all the other requirements.

What is the main breaker size and which load center panel is currently installed?

For cost and effort, lowest is NEMA 1-15 in-line furnace plug receptacle; EZ generator switch; switched sub panel w/ circuits moved; new load center w/ integrated transfer switch and whole house transfer switch. It is possible the cost / effort on the later items might shift in rank depending on the specific details.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

The main breaker is in the garage at the service entry and is rated for 150Amps - and it's the only thing in the panel. From there, the thick wires run to the main panel in my basement. It just seemed logical to me to put a fully rated switch right there at the main breaker in the garage. As to the details of each panel, I don't know. I have a couple of pics if that would help.

Why would a manual, fully rated switch be the highest cost option? I can see the hardware being more expensive because it needs to be able to handle the whole house load, but it seems like it would be MUCH lower in labor cost to install. Obviously I could be wrong.

I've attached pics of the main breaker in the garage, and the main panel in the basement. The big gray wire coming out of the bottom of the main breaker is what runs to my basement main panel. Not sure if that will tell you anything.

Thanks,
LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

Yes, w/ that existing 150 service disconnect, it should be possible / easy to remove and replace it w/ a 150A load center panel, like this one and use the previously linked transfer switch parts to get a good solution.


https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-S1836L3150-150-Amp-Circuit-3-Phase/dp/B008KNMMF0/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=siemens+150+amp+load+center&qid=1580136894&sr=8-6


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

wingless said:


> The Siemens main load center panel I installed, as-linked in this reply, permits a manual transfer switch of whatever size is required.


 As-shown in that linked reply, the manual interlock / transfer switch will permit feeding 150A street power to the load center, or feeding 30A generator power to the load center, using this mechanical interlock, after swapping the existing service disconnect for this load center.

The 30A power inlet box would be placed near where the portable generator is placed.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

@LeafPeeper, when faced with these decisions, I opted for a meter-mounted GenerLink Transfer switch. It took me 10 minutes to install it, and now I have the ability to manage any and all loads in the main panels via circuit breaker selection. This couldn't be simpler! I'd never do it any other way again. It does require a 240V generator, though. This single widget replaced the use of the plug-junctions discussed in your other thread. They can be purchased at Home Depot and other online sources for a little over $600. More info here: GenerLink, Backup Generator | Global Power Products


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

To continue, you really can't do a "whole panel" transfer switch with your 120V generator. You MUST use a partial sub-panel switch running off your main panel and that's where the pain of pre-choosing your covered circuits comes in. This Reliance unit Reliance Controls ProTran 306A1 Indoor 120V Manual Transfer Switch (30A) would certainly work:


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

Thanks @wingless and @tabora - but don't your answers contradict each other? I feel like such a newb. It sounded like Wingless was saying that I could indeed put a 150A subpanel switch in place at my service entry disconnect that would switch to a separate 30A line that was also feeding my load center/main panel. Tabora's response seems to indicate that's not possible. What am I missing?

Tabora - I actually did look into Generlink early on because it sounded perfect - but there are two problems. The first is that my meter is not on my house - it's on a pole 2 houses down before my power lines go underground. The second was the 240v requirement...so I dismissed it as an option. Maybe on my next house. :tango_face_grin:

Assuming a fully rated service entry switch is out of the question, then I had planned to by the Reliance 310CRK kit -which is just a 10 circuit version of the one Tabora linked above. In the end it would work out fine, but the cost to install is quite high....I was hoping to get more flexibility and cheaper labor costs by going with the 'whole house' switch.

Thanks again,
LP


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LeafPeeper said:


> Thanks @wingless and @tabora - but don't your answers contradict each other? I feel like such a newb. It sounded like Wingless was saying that I could indeed put a 150A subpanel switch in place at my service entry disconnect that would switch to a separate 30A line that was also feeding my load center/main panel. Tabora's response seems to indicate that's not possible. What am I missing?


 Perhaps @wingless did not realize that you only have a small 120V generator?
I've personally installed one of the Reliance 120V units shown with a 2800W generator, and the installation time was about an hour, maybe slightly more?

Also, realize that you can also install a personally owned meter (they're really cheap) on the house side of the disconnect switch you showed along with the GenerLink; if only you had a 240V generator...


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

tabora said:


> Perhaps @wingless did not realize that you only have a small 120V generator?


Ah...maybe not. Can you help me understand why it would be bad to feed 110v into a 240v input if I kill the breakers on the 220v devices? I'm assuming the generator would only feed one leg/phase rather than both legs/phases (I'm assuming there are two for 240v). Trying to figure out why it wouldn't work. The ProTran switch has a 240 receptacle too....so when it's wired in, they must be doing something so that a 110v generator would work.

This is at the heart of my confusion - so this is good discussion. Thank you guys SO much.

EDIT: For the 10 circuit switch, the electrician is estimating 4 hours....so maybe he's just trying to prepare me. The cost is way over what I wanted to spend for insurance/peace of mind that I'll probably never use....but if I'm going to do it, I want to do it once, and right.

LP


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LeafPeeper said:


> Ah...maybe not. Can you help me understand why it would be bad to feed 110v into a 240v input if I kill the breakers on the 220v devices? I'm assuming the generator would only feed one leg/phase rather than both legs/phases (I'm assuming there are two for 240v). Trying to figure out why it wouldn't work. The ProTran switch has a 240 receptacle too....so when it's wired in, they must be doing something so that a 110v generator would work.
> 
> This is at the heart of my confusion - so this is good discussion. Thank you guys SO much.
> LP


The problem with doing what you propose is the human factor. It's just too easy to screw up and destroy an expensive 240V widget by half-powering it. The Reliance box is incredibly simple; each circuit wire is simply removed from the main box breaker and connected to the pre-wired pigtail coming from the Reliance box and then the other colored wire for that circuit takes its place. It's so fast to configure. It has a 120V 30A generator inlet. Watch the install video; easy-peasy!


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LeafPeeper said:


> The ProTran switch has a 240 receptacle too...


It can be configured as a 240V or a 120V generator input with the appropriate inlet plug.



LeafPeeper said:


> For the 10 circuit switch, the electrician is estimating 4 hours...


That's 4 times longer than it took me for a 6 circuit, and I'm not an electrician; just someone who has wired my own houses and cottages. Seriously, watch the installation videos; this is very consumer-friendly. I only have electricians do things beyond the main disconnect and out to the utility drop.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

tabora said:


> It can be configured as a 240V or a 120V generator input with the appropriate inlet plug.
> 
> 
> That's 4 times longer than it took me for a 6 circuit, and I'm not an electrician; just someone who has wired my own houses and cottages. Seriously, watch the installation videos; this is very consumer-friendly. I only have electricians do things beyond the main disconnect and out to the utility drop.


Thanks Tabora. The receptacle for the proposed multicircuit transfer switch is an L14-30R - which I guess can be wired as either 120 or 240v. For my generator, I'm also going to have to use a TT-30 RV to L14-30 adapter in order to make the connection. The adapter ties both the hots together internally. Wondering if that would have caused problems with a fully rated transfer switch at the service entry anyway.

LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

tabora said:


> ... I opted for a meter-mounted GenerLink Transfer switch. ... They can be purchased at Home Depot and other online sources for a little over $600. More info here: GenerLink, Backup Generator | Global Power Products


 That looks like a cool device.

From their web site: "NOTE: Not all utility companies allow the GenerLink to be installed." 

IMO, that existing generator is insufficient for most applications. If it were me, then I would sell it on Craig's list and get a decent 30A 240V generator.

The possible problems from a half power human error w/ the existing generator is valid. Swap to a decent generator and remove that as a possibility.

Now is a great time to purchase a decent used generator. There are no storms spiking demand.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

wingless said:


> That looks like a cool device.
> 
> From their web site: "NOTE: Not all utility companies allow the GenerLink to be installed."
> 
> ...


Fair enough. The problem with that is THD. My furnace mfgr requires <5% THD or they claim it will invalidate my warranty and cause damage. There are also LOTS of reports out there with high THDs causing problems with UPS's - of which I have several. That's why I went with an inverter. I suspect I won't have much luck finding a decent 30A 240v generator at a reasonable cost that has a spec'd THD of less than 5%. Most traditional portable generators appear to run in the 5-20% range, and while a proper standby generator would work, it's just more than I'm willing to spend for an insurance policy I probably won't use very often. The few 240v inverters I found were either also really expensive, or had significant bad reviews. So I have what I have.

As to the size, I think 3500W should be fine for keeping my house warm and my fridges cold - again....especially for insurance that I don't expect to need very often.

Thanks for the help guys - I do appreciate it. I guess I'm just going to go with the multicircuit switch.

LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

wingless said:


> It looks like the generator is either this Wen 56380i 3800W Generator or this Wen DF475T 3800W Generator.





LeafPeeper said:


> The problem with that is THD. My furnace mfgr requires <5% THD or they claim it will invalidate my warranty and cause damage. There are also LOTS of reports out there with high THDs causing problems with UPS's - of which I have several. That's why I went with an inverter. I suspect I won't have much luck finding a decent 30A 240v generator at a reasonable cost that has a spec'd THD of less than 5%. Most traditional portable generators appear to run in the 5-20% range, and while a proper standby generator would work, it's just more than I'm willing to spend for an insurance policy I probably won't use very often.


 Where is the 5% maximum THD specification located for the Wen 56380i inverter generator?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

I have to agree with @wingless. What you're proposing to do is piling up bad decisions. I'd either go with a 240V inverter generator: https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-30675-Inverter-Generator/dp/B01N9FAFIE/ref=asc_df_B01N9FAFIE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241974774130&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13187898832280970241&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002579&hvtargid=aud-799728744414la-486073507110&psc=1 and a whole house transfer switch, or go back to the individual line EZ Transfer units with your existing generator.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

wingless said:


> Where is the 5% maximum THD specification located for the Wen 56380i inverter generator?


It's the 56380i - https://wenproducts.com/collections...ortable-inverter-generator-with-fuel-shut-off

Right on the main page:

"Designed to mirror a pure sine wave, this generator limits total harmonic distortion to under 0.3 percent at no load and under 1.2 percent at full load, making it safe enough to run laptops, cellphones, monitors, tablets and other vulnerable electronics. "

Here's Champion Equipment's take on this too:

Total Harmonic Distortion - Champion Help Center

LP


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

tabora said:


> I have to agree with @wingless. What you're proposing to do is piling up bad decisions. I'd either go with a 240V inverter generator: https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Strat...argid=aud-799728744414:pla-486073507110&psc=1 and a whole house transfer switch, or go back to the individual line EZ Transfer units with your existing generator.


Wait - you think going with a multicircuit switch is a bad idea now? 

That Briggs inverter is one of the ones I looked into. There are only a few 240v inverters in what I call a reasonable price range. The research on that one scared me - noisy, can't handle the rated load, etc. While I don't doubt that it might work, it was $1200 of 'maybe'. I really wanted to go with one that had consistently decent reviews - and the WEN appeared to be a decent value. I REALLY don't want to go through the hassle of trying to sell it, losing more money, only to buy a more expensive one - again, for insurance I'll likely rarely use.

If you're saying the multicircuit switch is a bad decision, then I may have to rethink things a bit. I'm happy with the generator...I just want to be happy with my switch decision too, and running a bunch of extension cords doesn't seem very appealing anymore. I'm only looking to keep my furnace, fridge, router, freezer and hot water heater running. I'm guessing the furnace is in the 800W range. The water heater runs at 150W according to my kill-a-watt. I can't imagine my 'very efficient' fridge, freezer and router taking up enough to cause problems with the furnace startup current - which only happens once because my blower runs 24x7.

How are these bad decision? Truly looking for honest answers here - not trying to be confrontational.

Thanks again,
LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

LeafPeeper said:


> I'm only looking to keep my furnace, fridge, router, freezer and hot water heater running. I'm guessing the furnace is in the 800W range. The water heater runs at 150W according to my kill-a-watt.


 Isn't the water heater a 240VAC device?

Link please to the furnace THD requirement? 

Note that THD is ALMOST ALWAYS a marketing number with ZERO effect on devices. In fact, the non-sinusoidal UPS step wave is better suited for virtually all electronics when compared to a sine wave output.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

wingless said:


> Isn't the water heater a 240VAC device?
> 
> Link please to the furnace THD requirement?
> 
> Note that THD is ALMOST ALWAYS a marketing number with ZERO effect on devices. In fact, the non-sinusoidal UPS step wave is better suited for virtually all electronics when compared to a sine wave output.


No - my water heater is gas fired. However, it has a forced exhaust, and the blower and control electronic plug into a standard 110v outlet mounted above the water heater.

As for my furnace, it was in a document I got from Lennox (attached). I just went back and re-read it, and I guess I could technically go as high as 8% - but I was driving for 5% or less per the document.

Again, thanks for all the help, but I've really ruled out selling the generator and buying another one. Now all I want to do is connect it, safely. Sounds like the multicircuit switch (or individual switches) are the way to go.

Thanks,
LP


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

The Lord Kelvin in me would love to measure the THD on my generator, but I'm not going to drop $1K for a used Keithley 2015 6½-digit THD meter.


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## wingless (Oct 29, 2019)

The manual and the online documentation for my Troy-Bilt 030245 generator do not define the THD. 

A chat interaction with them and w/ Briggs and Stratton (the manufacturer who makes this generator under contract to Troy-Bilt) revealed a verbal THD of 3-6% specification, but no written documentation of that parameter.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

wingless said:


> The manual and the online documentation for my Troy-Bilt 030245 generator do not define the THD.
> 
> A chat interaction with them and w/ Briggs and Stratton (the manufacturer who makes this generator under contract to Troy-Bilt) revealed a verbal THD of 3-6% specification, but no written documentation of that parameter.


Yeah - that's kinda what I found with most conventional generators. They don't seem to document THD very often. From the reading I've done, it's generally assumed that they run between 5 and 20%, so I have no idea how bad/good they really are. In my case, I wanted to be sure I had a number since I still have several years left on my furnace warranty.

LP


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LeafPeeper said:


> Wait - you think going with a multicircuit switch is a bad idea now?


I just think you're spending an awful lot to have an electrician hook up the larger transfer switch for such a small generator/coverage. Your Wen is rated 3400W continuous, which is 28.3A total. That Briggs (as an example) is rated 5000W continuous, but at 240V. That's 41.7A of 120V, which means you could put in a simple transfer switch in your garage in between the current main switch and the main panel (see link below, also an easy install) and feed the entire main panel, controlling the loads with the breakers in the main panel as I do with my GenerLink. Also, a bigger generator means you're operating farther down into the sweet spot of the load range, with more startup reserve and the ability to add additional circuits (or swap what's being driven) at will.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463

Or, since you've already predetermined the few circuits you want to cover and don't plan to go to a 240V generator, you can do it yourself and save a bunch with a 6 circuit 120V transfer unit as previously discussed if you don't want to go the EZ Transfer Switch route. Cheap & easy.


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

tabora said:


> I just think you're spending an awful lot to have an electrician hook up the larger transfer switch for such a small generator/coverage. Your Wen is rated 3400W continuous, which is 28.3A total. That Briggs (as an example) is rated 5000W continuous, but at 240V. That's 41.7A of 120V, which means you could put in a simple transfer switch in your garage in between the current main switch and the main panel (see link below, also an easy install) and feed the entire main panel, controlling the loads with the breakers in the main panel as I do with my GenerLink. Also, a bigger generator means you're operating farther down into the sweet spot of the load range, with more startup reserve and the ability to add additional circuits (or swap what's being driven) at will.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-...ency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463
> 
> Or, since you've already predetermined the few circuits you want to cover and don't plan to go to a 240V generator, you can do it yourself and save a bunch with a 6 circuit 120V transfer unit as previously discussed if you don't want to go the EZ Transfer Switch route. Cheap & easy.


Got it - thanks Tabora. That helps. I still think I'm going to keep my WEN for now, but I'll give some additional thought to the size of the switch. I was thinking bigger in case I wanted to upgrade the generator later - but you're right, if I did that, a whole house switch and 240v generator would be the way to go. In reference to that Briggs unit, I saw a few complaints about it not being able to handle the rated power which bothered me as well.

Thanks again for the help and patience!

LP


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

For what it's worth, here's a serious 240V 1.5% THD inverter generator at a reasonable price of $2999 (compares to Honda EU7000is @ $4500). This will likely be my next generator: 
https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...iI-uHRjqjnAhWoAp0JHZVpBBAQ9aACegQINBBA&adurl=



https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...iI-uHRjqjnAhWoAp0JHZVpBBAQ9aACegQINBBA&adurl=


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea thd is mostly for the speed conventional gen sets..
it has to do with the hz and voltage..
so here is the kicker.
most good inverter gen units this is not an issue as they use 3 phase feeding the gens inverter...
so unless you have large induction motors like on well pumps or sump pumps....
the sag on the line voltage is not an issue...
testing is a good thing!!
get an good clamp current meter... or rent one or borrow one!!
I found my sperry units on ebay!!
pm me for model numbers etc.
you can watch the current when the device in question kicks in for in rush
I use an ups for the electronics on the furnace only...
that way it is not an issue!!
it will buck boost the power to pure...
another thing to look at is if the furnace has a dc power supply in it!!
some do!!
and some do not have computer grade filtering!!
that can be added!!
any good electronics tech can help with that!!
and the cool thing is the cost is not much!! that is on dc!! not the ac side!!

on my furnace the motor kicks in for a in rush on the fan at 5 amps.. and run is at 1 amp...
how I cured this was to lock the fan to run during a power outage!
then it is only an issue once!! when you kick in the fan!!
a real kiss thing!! (keep it simple stupid or KISS) grin!!

induction motors kill the thd rating...
and for the ac compressor units a MICRO AIR SOFT START works!!
I have a link on this page honda eu 2200i generator accy pages
my idea is these may work on the furnace fan motors as well!!
stop the in rush of the 90 amps or more on a fan!!

kinda surprised that the furnace mfg's have not made these an option or oem on expensive furnace units!!
yea they cost money...
but!!
you can run a smaller gen set!!
they work for the state fair camper bunch!!
most of the camper ac units need a 3 kw genset to start one ac unit!!
you can do it with a single honda 2000i if you use one of the MICRO AIR SOFT START units..
saves the extra gen cost now, and saves fuel in the long run!!

I guess for me it is all about the big picture!!
I like comforts!!
so lights, internet, tv, heat/ cooling and cooking is a must..
and if I can get by for low cost and low noise then I am all about that!!
GRIN!!

oh yea that brings up a BIG thing with me!!
NOISE!!
the Honda units are quiet!! 50 db or less on audio noise as they are.
and you can build a quiet box for camp grounds or do a special gen shack for home use.
during a BIG power event the noise is bad!!

last ice event we had here you could hear the LOUD classic briggs units running and popping...
it was bad!!
I had a neighbor walk over and asked how I had power.. 
he did not even hear the 2000i purring!! 
I had not even put the cover on yet!! but it was on the foam mat.

the better honda 7000is or handy 3000i units are quiet as well!!
they have factory wheels...
and there are aftermarket extended run and tri fuel kits out there for them..

oh yea there is an optional remote start now for the 7000is now!!
pretty cool if you have an auto switch!!
and still cool if you are doing off grid to charge battery's... start and stop the gen from remote!!


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

hummm
why not think outside the box??
use a plain old transfer switch or panel conversion for main lock out.
run the hd 250 vac wiring out to the gen inlet
I ran 6/4 gauge so it could be converter to a rv outlet if needed easy.
on your custom feed cord plug that is a 240 single phase plug from your generator
jumper the L1 and L2 in the dedicated cord for this use.
note do not make a widow maker cord!!
those are double male cords!
but a proper male female generator inlet cord!
kinda like the ones they use for rv use on a 15p connection.
a basic dog bone maybe!!

yea just trip out any 240 breakers in the main panel when you are on generator.
unless you have a 240 volt well pump or sump pump...
then you need a larger 240 volt generator that will handle the loads...

I would make sure what ever setup you decide on custom or store bought
that you have both volt meters and current meters separate for L1 and L2!!
you can see my custom generator setup at https://hondagenerator.groups.io
and yes I am running 120 vac!
I like the low fuel consumption!!


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## LeafPeeper (Jan 21, 2020)

iowagold said:


> hummm
> why not think outside the box??
> use a plain old transfer switch or panel conversion for main lock out.
> run the hd 250 vac wiring out to the gen inlet
> ...


I'll admit to not being able to follow a lot of your posts, but if I'm reading this correctly, this is what I originally proposed. The folks here convinced me it was a bad idea. 

FWIW, my main breaker is in the garage at the service entry on the first floor, and my main load panel is in the basement on the other side of the garage. It would be a PAIN IN THE A$$ to run new power cables given the route the builders used. So I'm done waffling....electrician coming mid-Feb and installing a standard multicircuit transfer switch in the basement.

LP


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