# Does this stack up to a 15kw class generator?



## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Long story short, I found a good deal on this unit. It literally had never been run by the previous owner, only tested at the manufacturer. I don't have much experience with larger generators so I am curious what others here think on the apparent build quality.

Details:
Honda GX690 engine
MLCB - 50 amp (Blue Sea Systems double pole linked breaker)
Main leads from alternator (L1, L2, N) - 8 gauge

The assembly is from Central Maine Diesel. It is their claimed 15kw (13.5kw running) unit - 56.2a continuous/62.5a starting. I looked in to the company a bit trying to find a manual and it appears they went belly up around 2019. There are numerous horror stories from customers of theirs online. That makes me question the build quality. For what I paid for this thing I'm really not too concerned, more curious than anything. I couldn't get an engine for what the whole set up with a cart and 15gal tank was.

This is the bigger unit I own that is part of the NG/LP conversion sets I'm working on in another thread. That's another subject so we'll leave that there.

From doing some welding before and load testing circuits the past couple years I know a circuit breaker doesn't necessarily break at its' rated amperage, only if that amperage is sustained over time to heat up the breaker will it then "break". I've pulled over 60 amps on peaks (not for long!) on a "30 amp" rated breaker with running amperage in the mid to upper 40's. That was a square D QO load center breaker, though. I would say that is a higher quality breaker. I am not sure what to make of the Blue Sea Systems tandem used on the generator. There seem to be mixed perspectives in reviews online. Though, with being rated to 62 some amps staring - does it make sense that there is only a 50 amp breaker? I have not load tested this unit yet, but I would hope that the breaker would break before the engine would bog down. My small open frame rotary does not - the engine will die before the breaker trips.

The generator is out of commission. It has a good bit of oil in it (more than 1/2 way between lower and upper limits on the dip stick, yes the indicator light in the pic below appears to be on but I honestly never looked at it - just the old fashioned dip stick), but its been sitting for a few years. I test fired it after cleaning plugs and ensuring it would turn over (had the plugs out and cranked the starter). Since it has old oil I am going to drop it and the filter then start fresh before I run it and break it in. It does run great, though. I just don't want to "run it" on the oil and filter that's there. I have parts on order. I doubt I'll have time next week to mess with it, probably the week after at this rate.

For what it is worth, I can't see the specs on the capacitors. I'll have to rotate them if I can so the labels are visible.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

For comparisons sake - this is Northstar's version of a 15kw unit with the same engine:



https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200467369_200467369



It uses a 14-60 plug and the panel shows the breaker is "58 amps". That seems like a strange number to me. 

I have no idea what the internals look like on the Northstar version. 

One of my concerns is the voltage regulation of the unit. I would venture a guess the unit I have is about as cheaply made as it can be so that might bring in to question the robustness of the electrical output - hence starting the thread, really. However, I don't think there is much to go wrong with the actual alternator - its copper windings and magnets. If it were to be overloaded and overheat, then yes that would be an issue. But there aren't any parts in the alternator that would just "go bad" as far as I know. 

Now, the capacitors in the box and breaker are another story - the parts that are post-winding leads (the black leads going from the terminal posts back in to the alternator with what look like a fabric/woven sheaths). 

I tried to rotate the capacitors but they are strapped in pretty tight. I will see if I can unbolt the box housing from the alternator instead when I get to it.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Looks ultra-clean! Nice new-unit condition. Change your oil and filter and have at it! See maintenance schedule from Honda in your other thread.



FlyFisher said:


> a circuit breaker doesn't necessarily break at its' rated amperage


Circuit breakers have two functions: instant for shorts and thermal for overloads. The thermal allows for higher motor startup loads to momentarily overload the breaker without tripping.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

I happened to come across an 18k unit from Winco that oddly enough shares the exact alternator that is on the unit I have. The casting and guards are all exactly identical. That doesn't mean the guts inside are exactly identical, but I would guess there is a good chance they are. That surprises me - I was under the impression Winco built their own alternators. I can't imagine Central Maine Diesel purchased Winco alternators. I don't think the price point of the one I have (when new) would have been what it is. But - maybe? The electrical box with breaker and outlet does differ a bit.

Does anyone have any insight on the alternator market? Could it be a lot of companies share alternators and do the wiring however they individualize it? 









EC18000VE/D | WINCO


Our EC18000VE is a great unit to add to vehicles and trailers that reduces cost and weight in comparison to liquid-cooled models.




www.wincogen.com


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

they can do what they want with any gen head..
with that said not all gen heads are the same.
some are way way over rated...
others are the other direction and are over built!

so on the cmd gen head snap some pix of the head tag for us.

and on northern tool built gear we have yet to have a bad one on their north star house brand.
it is pretty good. and it uses real honda gx motors..
not sure who is making the gen head for them.
but it is made and spec just for them.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Ha. This Motorhead unit - same alternator also. 

In the details they claim it is a "Mecc Alte" alternator made in Italy. 



https://nysmartgenerators.com/product/motorhead-gasoline-portable-generator/


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> they can do what they want with any gen head..
> with that said not all gen heads are the same.
> some are way way over rated...
> others are the other direction and are over built!
> ...


OK on all. 

If the heads are different inside, why would they all share the same housings?

The Northstar 13k starting/10.5k running unit was way up on my list in the past. For a new unit, watts for dollars it is a reasonable deal for a quality unit. From what I know about Northstar generators - they are as you state and have quite a following.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> In the details they claim it is a "Mecc Alte" alternator made in Italy.


Central Maine Diesel sold a lot of units with various engines driving Mecc Alte alternator heads.


15,000 Watt Gas Generator




5,000 Watt Gasoline Generator




4,000 Watt Gasoline Generator








Products | kVA Alternators | Mecc Alte


We have been highly successful in global markets by offering a wide and diversified range of alternators that are capable of satisfying and exceeding customer requirements. Find out more about our kVA Alternators here.




www.meccalte.com


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> Central Maine Diesel sold a lot of units with various engines driving Mecc Alte alternator heads.


How are you so sure? Do you have other information than the product listings from the website that say the alternators are as you state? 

I don't have any info on the alternator on mine. See below for the exterior. See earlier in the thread for inside the electrical box.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

there are a couple of other brands of heads that are real good as well.
if the avr style unit works for your power needs.

most are intended for construction and heavy use.
harsh environments etc.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> How are you so sure? Do you have other information than the product listings from the website that say the alternators are as you state?
> 
> I don't have any info on the alternator on mine. See below for the exterior. See earlier in the thread for inside the electrical box.


That looks like a Mecc Alte S20F-230 15.5KVA or S20F-200 14.4KVA...
*2 POLE **SINGLE PHASE ALTERNATORS – CAPACITOR REGULATION*

Specs:


https://www.meccalte.com/downloads/s20f.pdf



Manual:


https://www.meccalte.com/downloads/man_S20F_rev03.pdf


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> there are a couple of other brands of heads that are real good as well.
> if the avr style unit works for your power needs.


I assume the AVR in your reply is "Automatic Voltage Regulation"? I am not entirely following what you are saying. The voltage regulation is done with, what I suppose I am assuming are, the capacitors in the electrical box. I can't see the labels enough to read them so that is just an assumption. Maybe they are more complex than "just capacitors". 

If I get 60hz AC at 120/240v that is all I really care about. Sure, lower THD is ideal. I am curious to find what the waveform shows when I get around to load testing it (after I get the oil changed).


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> That looks like a Mecc Alte S20F-230 15.5KVA...
> 
> 
> https://www.meccalte.com/downloads/s20f.pdf
> ...


If that is the case - that answers the root of the thread - if the generator really does stack up to being a 15kw class unit. Per the spec of that alternator it would appear to be. 

However, I am not 100% sure because of the price point of the generator when new. Given other units in the 15kw class with a GX690 engine are north of $4k - how is the $3175 pricepoint possible? From my understanding Central Maine Diesel went out of business/closed up shop some time in 2019. So there are 2 years between now and then for pricing to loose sync with inflation during that period so I don't know how fair it is even to use the $3175 figure listed on their site. 

If there were markings or a manufacturers label on the alternator I have then that would be easy to verify. I am not sure why they wouldn't put a label on the alternator somewhere very obvious, however I have not looked underneath the unit where the frame is or inside any of the black vent covers.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> From my understanding Central Maine Diesel went out of business/closed up shop some time in 2019.


Well, their email address is still alive and being serviced, the web site is registered and functional and the phone number works...

*Central Maine Diesel*
PO Box 563
Hampden, ME 04444 

* Toll-Free:* 1-888-899-0603
*Phone:* 1-207-941-1188
* Fax:* 1-207-941-1189
* E-Mail:* [email protected]



FlyFisher said:


> I am not sure why they wouldn't put a label on the alternator somewhere very obvious


Not sure why you're concerned about the Mecc Alte head... They're one of the leading alternator builders. Winco and many other builders use them, too. There would have been a Mecc Alte data plate on it originally, but some genset builders seem to try to hide the origin of the alternator.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> Well, their email address is still alive and being serviced, the web site is registered and functional and the phone number works...


I've tried both emailing 2 different addresses of theirs and called numerous times. In my research on them I found the building they were in was for sale and that was in 2019. No idea when they left the building. Their facebook account also has no activity of theirs since 2019. So it appears they just up and left operations. I do find it strange their phones are still on, but their voicemail is full and the message you get is for faster service to email them - which there are numerous reports of never getting messages back from them, period, in the past couple years. The reports of customers who have had prior conversations with the company leaves a lot to be desired - like them switching the conversation from the concerns of the customers to flat out not being able to answer specification questions accurately (such as the burn rate of engines with the different fuel types and the wattage production of them when run with different fuels).

So again - I have my concerns. But, like I said in the first post, I am more curious than anything because for what it is I didn't put much money in it.



tabora said:


> Not sure why you're concerned about the Mecc Alte head... They're one of the leading alternator builders. Winco and many other builders use them, too. There would have been a Mecc Alte data plate on it originally, but some genset builders seem to try to hide the origin of the alternator.


I don't necessarily have concerns about a legitimate Mecc Alte head. I don't believe 100% this IS a legitimate Mecc Alte head yet.

I did a good bit of research in to Winco generators a couple years ago. Their WL12000HE-03/A model was one I was considering (along with the 13kw starting/10.5kw running Northstar). I was under the impression both Winco and Northstar wound their own alternators. Furthermore, when I was at Northern Tool checking specs right before I dove in to my "research" (and the dive was because the salesmen and manager at the store I was at did not have the knowledge to answer what I was asking at the time) they did mention the Powerhorse brand in that it was their best clone of a Honda engine and Northstar assembly for a reduced pricepoint. 

Additionally, from what I can see on the 15kw starting/13.5kw running Northstar - the alternator they use on that unit is the same casting and vent covers also. 

So I am very surprised. If they are all actually using legitimate Mecc Alte heads that is at least OK, I'd think. It contradicts what I thought I knew about some brands winding their own and I'm not sure I like that. However I got to that conclusion, it is bad in the sense of it being "false information". If manufacturers were clear on what parts they use that would eliminate the question and be a more ethical presentation to the customer.

From what I could tell (and if you look at the picture of the binding post/terminal block in the OP you can see a glimpse of it) the alternator windings are copper so it wasn't a reproduction clone wound with aluminum, unless they put an enamel coating on the wire that makes it look identical to enamel coated copper....


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yea hard times these days...
a lot of places not able to keep up...

and this is why we do private bench mark testing on the gens...
some are good and others well not so much.
so far the real honda eu inverter gens are holding up ok.
as well as the real north star units, and the larger cat gens.

it would be nice to have a rewind / full production shop here in the states!
good money in it on the larger stuff.
but the haz mat, and workers is a thing... the old guys who are good are at that age that they are done....
and it is a real job! or trade...


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> I don't necessarily have concerns about a legitimate Mecc Alte head. I don't believe 100% this IS a legitimate Mecc Alte head yet.
> 
> I did a good bit of research in to Winco generators a couple years ago. Their WL12000HE-03/A model was one I was considering (along with the 13kw starting/10.5kw running Northstar). I was under the impression both Winco and Northstar wound their own alternators.
> ....
> So I am very surprised. If they are all actually using legitimate Mecc Alte heads that is at least OK, I'd think. It contradicts what I thought I knew about some brands winding their own and I'm not sure I like that.





iowagold said:


> and this is why we do private bench mark testing on the gens...
> some are good and others well not so much.
> so far the real honda eu inverter gens are holding up ok.
> as well as the real north star units, and the larger cat gens.
> ...


So if I am reading what you said correctly you are saying that there isn't a place in the US that DOES make alternators like these, period, due to the hazardous materials (chemicals) and people that have the know-how (lost trade)?

I am trying to read between the lines on your claims with the North Star units. I am not sure what your background is with generators - what type of service, business, industry, or personal use? I assume if you have extensive background with these units as your posts suggest - it is a pretty well equipped (with regards to generators) business. So I am curious - if many manufacturers make generators with the same "guts" (engines/alternators) - where do you see in your "private benchmark testing" the shortcomings of various units? Again, with the same engines and alternators between various manufacturers - if there are shortcomings my hunch is those are not necessarily the engines and alternators, but the other electrical components - namely voltage regulation.

On top of that - one of the big questions I have now is that on total harmonic distortion/THD. Inverter generators generally are said to have low THD, rotary generators - not so much. There are some that do.

If the alternators are largely all the same (passing windings through a magnetic field) - how is it one generator company can claim low THD on theirs and other generator companies do not?

I have heard that the only way to overcome high THD is to "regenerate the AC wave". This could be done by rectifying to DC, then using an inverter to do the recreation of the AC wave - and is the principal used in Inverter style generators from the get-go.

But that doesn't answer the question of how a rotary generator can have low THD. A rotary generator produces power in AC, the alternator itself spinning at it specified RPM is what generates the AC power - not an inverter.

As I understand THD - that comes from loading. As you load the alternator the current and voltage can become out of sync (more so with higher reactive loads than resistive loads - the hypotnuse between the resistance and reactance is the apparent power, the more reactance the further the phase shift). If two rotary alternators on two generators are the same alternators - how is it the loading of either one able to throw off the harmonic distortion any differently than the other? You can't change the reactance of your loads, other than to not run them. Therefore, between two alternators feeding that identical load set - what changes between those alternators and the load that allows one unit to produce lower THD than another?

If it is in the voltage regulation - then the bit of knowledge I've had on needing to "regenerate the AC wave" to remove high THD is not correct - you can use the same AC wave produced by the alternator and filter it differently to clean up the power - like how ever the method is on regulation with a "better quality" generator.

So that is what I'm curious about - with all your testing - what constitutes a "good generator" and what constitutes a "doesn't meet the mark" generator? And what is your "mark" you are trying to hit or exceed?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> I don't believe 100% this IS a legitimate Mecc Alte head yet.


Oh ye of little faith... CMD definitely used (uses?) Mecc Alte alternators. Please understand that I'm not guessing here; just stating facts. CMD generator questions come up all the time. Looks like you have one of their better, simpler products there, with the Honda GX690 and Mecc Alte alternator just joined up on a frame.

Here's a little bit about *MECC ALTE ALTERNATOR SOLUTIONS*

We are a worldwide group providing alternator solutions with our sales plants and manufacturers in Italy, the UK, China and India. Each facility is concentrated on the production of world-class alternators, with complete manufacturing in Mecc Alte SpA and Mecc Alte Power Products in Italy (1 – 5,000kVA), Mecc Alte UK in Great Britain (1 – 3,000kVA), Mecc Alte Haimen in China (7.5 – 3,000kVA) and Mecc Alte India in Pune India (6.5 – 750kVA). This network of factories is additionally supported by wholly-owned subsidiaries based in Australia, France, Germany, Singapore, Spain and the USA who specialise locally in the sales, distribution and aftersales for all Mecc Alte's alternator solutions. We have a vertically integrated production structure; we control everything we do from the lamination die manufacturing right through to the final electronics.
We continue to believe that our employees are our most important asset: professional, skilled, experienced and committed, they remain the critical reason for our success. Our products are so successful due to their high quality and reliability - this is because our people provide real added value.
We employ over 1,200 people throughout the world and we invest heavily into our ongoing training program to ensure that they are able to make a significant, ongoing contribution to our expansion.
We only make one kind of product. That’s why we’ve been totally focused on producing high quality alternators since we were established in 1947. Today, we have factories or distribution centres in every continent and we’re the world’s largest independent producer of alternators. Our independence is very important to us... and to our customers because we never compete with any of them in the end market. (We don’t sell complete generator sets.)
We believe that we’re a totally unique company because of the special combination of qualities that set us apart from our competitors. We offer the highest levels of global support to our customers and we put them at the forefront of every single decision we make, which continually spurs us on in terms of our continuous development, product innovation and constantly evolving product ranges.



FlyFisher said:


> I was under the impression both Winco and Northstar wound their own alternators.


They may wind some, but for example if you follow that Winco link you posted, then click on Downloads and then Generator Spec Sheet, you'll see that it's a Mecc Alte S20F alternator.


FlyFisher said:


> I've tried both emailing 2 different addresses of theirs and called numerous times. In my research on them I found the building they were in was for sale and that was in 2019. No idea when they left the building.


They've been gone from 29 Carey Circle for a while... That is a cleaning service now. I assume that the P.O. Box address may belong to a successor company that purchased the assets, or perhaps the principals just downsized into an internet company.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

My Aurora Generator 13 kw diesel uses a Mecc Alte alternator but it has electronic regulation. Aurora positions their products as premium quality (and I agree.)


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies through the thread.

I was working on some of my other engines today and before I shut everything up for the night I went to tear in to the 15kw unit. I figured I would look under the alternator to see if I found any info. Sure enough - theres the data plate/sticker right smack on the bottom of the unit.

Mecc Alte S20F-230/2 is the "type" on the unit. Good stuff. 

I see it was made in 11/2014. Does that date the overall unit at all? Combined with the emissions sticker on the engine - both have 2014 dates but that doesn't necessarily mean the "generator" was assembled in 2014. 

I do find the bottom of the data set interesting - "10% overload for 2hrs within a 24hr period". It is rated to 15kva (essentially kw) so the 10% overload would be 1.5kw more, or 16.5kw. My interpretation of that information, and the rated 13.5kw number from the generator manufacturers' specs, is that the ratings are actually conservative - the alternator is capable of more, but for some head room they downgrade the ratings. I like that. 

Bear in mind, power-wise the 13.5kw rated running load is still several kw higher than I was considering in the past. When I was running numbers then I wasn't taking in to account the central AC here. What I was adding up was a 240v 6kw draw water heater and a well pump that runs about 1800w @ 120v, or a single leg amperage of 40a to bring the overall wattage requirement of the minimum generator spec to 9600w - running, or 12-13kw peak starting. I am looking forward to load testing this unit to see if it will hold up to the loads here (need my oil filter order to come in so I can drop the old oil and put new oil in and a new oil filter on the unit).


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

watch the heat soak... and the % of the load.
it takes a long time to get rid of heat soak in a hot gen set on a hot over 90 deg f day during the summer.
try to stay at 50% to a max of 75% of the rated load.
that will make the gen last a life time.
and yes you can use external fans to move more air over the gen set.

make sure the gen head has plenty of cool fresh clean air available.
and if you are building a gen shack use dust filters for the air intake to the gen shack.

dust is one of the the things that kill a good gen set.
the other is heat.

a good thermal gun is the best way to look at how hot a gen head is running or a flir thermal camera.
we use the latter when testing.
nice to be able to see any connection issues live as well with the flir.

now days they make the flir units that will plug in to your smart phone or ipad.

and for when you have a closed door gen shed make sure to have good thermal meters and safety shut down for over temp. just a fail safe thing.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> They may wind some, but for example if you follow that Winco link you posted, then click on Downloads and then Generator Spec Sheet, you'll see that it's a Mecc Alte S20F alternator.


I checked the generator spec. It lists a generic Mecc Alte model list. However, interestingly enough, the spec sheet doesn't list any higher than a 15kva. That generator is marketed as an 18kw unit. Shouldn't it have north of a 18kva head to be rated to 18kw starting? 

The amperage rating on the generator spec is 62.5 amps @ 240v. This would come to right at 15kw, not 18kw. Even if they use the 10% for 2hrs in 24hrs bump (listed at the bottom of the spec sheet I posted a little earlier) that is only 16.5kva, if I am reading that correctly. 16.5kva doesn't stack up to 18kw.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> I checked the generator spec. It lists a generic Mecc Alte model list.


That's not a "generic" list... Those are the 2 POLE SINGLE PHASE ALTERNATORS – CAPACITOR REGULATION in the S20F group, of which your S20F-230/2 is also a member. Mecc Alte produces groups (or families) of alternators that share characteristics; and documentation.

Anyway, glad you were able to locate the alternator plate to confirm your alternator model info. Hopefully it will fire right up and serve you well.


FlyFisher said:


> That generator is marketed as an 18kw unit.


No, it's not. It's listed as 15000 Running Watts. That's its continuous rating, which you multiply times 1.2 to get the *momentary* startup surge load it *should* be able to carry. The fact that they state the alternator can run at 10% overload for up to 2 hours in a 24 hour window is a bonus.


FlyFisher said:


> Inverter generators generally are said to have low THD, rotary generators - not so much.


By the way, your Mecc Alte alternator has less than 4% THD. Very good for a non-inverter unit.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> By the way, your Mecc Alte alternator has less than 4% THD. Very good for a non-inverter unit.


I just found that also. As the story progresses on this generator acquisition it becomes harder and harder to believe it. Once I found the trail of unhappy customers and their complaints about CMD I got a bit concerned - hence the thread. 

This is the spec list for this series of alternators. 









However I still question the loading of the alternator vs regulation and how that affects THD.




FlyFisher said:


> On top of that - one of the big questions I have now is that on total harmonic distortion/THD. Inverter generators generally are said to have low THD, rotary generators - not so much. There are some that do.
> 
> If the alternators are largely all the same (passing windings through a magnetic field) - how is it one generator company can claim low THD on theirs and other generator companies do not?
> 
> ...


So is it true in a rotary generator that if the THD is high/unacceptable the only way to fix that is to "regenerate" the AC wave? Or with quality regulation/filtering between the alternator and the load (perhaps like added power factor capacitors) could the THD be dropped? If loads are set you can't change the reactance of the loads without removing them (like an AC unit - inductive as it is a motor that drives the compressor). As far as modifications go - it wouldn't be difficult to add capacitors, or change capacitors, or add some other kind of regulation circuit - but would it work? I suppose if the THD is an affect caused by the reactance the alternator is trying to drive then combating the reactance would bring down the THD. 

The RF pictorial that immediately comes to mind is "tuning an antenna", with respect to ham, or CB, radio. The Standing Wave Ratio, or SWR, measures the amount of reflected power with respect to the forward power. I quote "tuning an antenna" because the SWR only accounts for the impedance match at the radio end (or line fed to the radio from an impedance matching device, wherever you measure it). It does not account for the match at the feed point of the antenna. So even though SWR might be good, the power efficiency in to the antenna (when transmitting) might still be off. However, the transmitter is still happy and will push full power in to a feed line that shows good SWR. If the SWR is not good it folds back power to protect itself.

In my theory, just as with SWR - if SWR is off there are ways to correct it. If reactance of a load presented to a generator is off and the result is high THD then my thought process is there should be a way to correct that by removing, or reducing, the condition that caused it - either by a regulation method that has a better range to absorb the reactance or by factoring in reactance opposite of what is throwing off the THD. The latter would seem rather difficult with constantly changing loads, though.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

FlyFisher said:


> Once I found the trail of unhappy customers


I think most of those customers were diesel engine customers. As I mentioned before, I think you have one of the best of the CMD builds.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

tabora said:


> I think most of those customers were diesel engine customers. As I mentioned before, I think you have one of the best of the CMD builds.


CMD was on my radar when I was shopping for a diesel genny but all sorts of red flags popped up, for one their website - it hadn't been updated in three years or so. It's amazing the website is still up and the business is abandoned.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

JJ Ranch said:


> CMD was on my radar when I was shopping for a diesel genny but all sorts of red flags popped up, for one their website - it hadn't been updated in three years or so. It's amazing the website is still up and the business is abandoned.


The one I picked up was 2nd hand. It was bought several years ago and just sat. After the purchase was the supposed "pandemic" and that turned in to the previous owner moving. Once they moved the unit went up for sale, Im surprised they even moved it. In any event, it was never run. For the price I jumped on it. I wasn't going to waste a couple days researching the unit and company for someone else to snag it before I did - it was going to go quick. I tried to get some education on it before I made the purchase as it was advertised as a "15kw Honda generator" - which isn't entirely true. As most on here probably well know - Honda engines are paired with various alternators by many companies, so just because the engine is red and plastered with "Honda" does not mean it was a Honda piece of equipment. Thats when CMD came up - and from that I got the electrical specs off their website (close enough to be comfortable with it) and that it was single phase, not 3-phase (there is an option for that but this doesn't have it). The rest was a mystery - and for the price it didn't really matter. Between my first inquiry, some back-and-forth with the seller, and sold was 2hrs and 2min. 

For reference, the old generator I have is a piece of junk chinese generator I inherited from my grandparents. Guess what? It runs like a champ. So if this one had a Honda engine I knew it was a good power plant with parts availability. So that alone was miles ahead, in my book.

After finding the Mecc Alte alternator - now I'm really happy.

If I was looking on the new market, and I listed these earlier in the thread, the two units I had pretty high up at the top of my list were the Winco WL12000 and Northstar 13k starting/10.5k running. Truth be told, though - no matter what brand you get in an "open frame" unit - you get a bunch of hooplah you probably don't need. For example - all the 120v outlets. If I need a 120v power source Im **** sure not firing up the 15k! Usually my EU2200i, as of late, is what I run - and I always keep it ready to go for just that reason. With an hour meter on the engine, electric start, and a 50 amp outlet/breaker - thats all I need/wanted. You're still getting good components - engine and alternator - minus all the hooplah.

I got the electrical box opened up yesterday and got to the info stamps on the cans. I haven't looked them up, but the don't appear to be standard "capacitors". With them branded "Ducati Energia" and the alternator being Italian-made I am assuming that the Ducati Energia components were supplied by Mecc Alte? Just a guess. Ducati Energia is an Italian name and the cans use a comma instead of a period for the cap value (31,5uF instead of 31.5uF) = European characterization. If that is correct I would imagine with Mecc Alte being akin to the gold standard of alternators they would use quality components all the way around.

The two cans on the sides appear to be the same, the one in the middle (strapped to the one on the right) is smaller.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

I think you did good with your purchase, CMD or XYZ or whatever. Europeans have their decimals and commas reversed for some reason, maybe that's a Metric thing . I know nothing about Italian capacitor quality but it's a bonus not being Chinese!


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

I got the oil filters in the mail today so I dropped the oil and swapped things around. Then I gave it a test run. 

'Scope leads were on one half of the alternator (120v, not 240v). I am not sure which leg but they were on the same one. So they either were on one leg seeing 6.5a or one leg seeing 19a when I added the loads.

Waveforms with no load:
Note - digital 'scope measures freq at 63.6hz





















Waveforms with a 12.5a 120v load (heater) and 6.5a 240v load (transformer welder with cooling fan off a secondary at idle, just on). Total wattage was 3600w.
Note digital 'scope measures freq at 61.64hz



















This is a good example of how good CRT 'scopes are - even rather basic/simple/cheap ones - compared to economical digital storage 'scopes. The sample rate of the digital is horrendous, but if you look close you can interpret where the blips are compared to the CRT. 

Moral of the waveforms - the power is not an absolutely perfect sine wave, but it isn't terrible, either. I'll dig a bit and see if I can find some comparison with various amounts of harmonic distortion to see where the amount of variance from a pure sine wave there is on this unit falls. 

My RF spectrum analyzer goes down to 100KHz, still not low enough for AC power at 50-60Hz. If there is a way to inductively couple to an audio input (to keep the "power" off the input), or otherwise sufficiently attenuate the signal, that would net measurable results that is an option. Audio goes down to about 20Hz or so, up to about 4kHz. I'm sure some software I already have would be able to display/measure where harmonics are up higher in freq from there.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

An example waveform with 12% THD from the following article:


StackPath












My waveforms don't look near that bad. That's a good thing. The bigger issue regarding harmonc distortion appears to be at the max/min. There is very minimal distortion on mine there - the rise and fall is where the distortion appears the most, more so on the rise.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

it will depend on the load...
some loads can take more trash in the wave form.
look at inverter motor drives for industrial gear...
they use dc or other HF wave form as brake...

some equipment that uses a power supply have good filtering when they convert to dc...

for me i just use a quality inverter gen set.
and call it good.

who knows where we will be in another 20 years!


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> it will depend on the load...


Very true. Thats why I tried to add some kind of a load to the alternator so it wasn't running freely. It will be interesting to see how things vary in differing loading scenarios.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

iowagold said:


> for me i just use a quality inverter gen set.
> and call it good.


Of course, to get close to 15KW of inverter power would require about $11K of Hondas all in...


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

tabora said:


> Of course, to get close to 15KW of inverter power would require about $11K of Hondas all in...


Someone came up with a way to parallel EU7000's? Wow. 

Is that an L14-50 I see on the break-out box? Looks like a 3 pin twist lock, but I believe the center pin is ground - the 4th. 

I'm not sure if I would want to have 2 big engines like that running even if they are inverter generators. That seems like it would still be a decent amount of fuel in times of low power consumption.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Speaking of big inverter generators... 

I went looking in to the EU7000 and I don't see any info on paralleling them in the product description. However, on Northern Tool's website they have a competing Powerhorse model that does 7500w starting/5500w running that IS parallel-ready. Apparently when you parallel the two units the power can be drawn from either one. They come standard with a 14-50 outlet (non-locking) so it doesn't matter which unit you draw the power from (it will push all its power out the one outlet, you don't have to distribute between the units once paralleled). 






Powerhorse Inverter Generator 7500 Surge Watts, 6500 Rated Watts | Northern Tool


This Powerhorse® Inverter Generator provides more power with less noise, plus low 1.5% total harmonic distortion for safely running sensit...




www.northerntool.com







https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200777733_200777733?isSearch=157247


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

on that plug and socket center pin is just a locate pin
the ring is the earth ground.

easy to make that para setup!
pm me for parts list.
yea the para of the 7000i has been in and out of factory honda production for a while.
it is cool for those who need large amounts of 240.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> yea the para of the 7000i has been in and out of factory honda production for a while.


If I recall correctly that was to do with the parallel kits being UL listed. Honda needed to have every model and product change re-tested and certified from Underwriter Laboratories. Honda didn't want to flip the bill for the testing so they out-sourced the kits to third-party companies, as opposed to branding them "Honda" and having them UL listed under Honda. 

Of course, I could be off on that. I was looking in to the paralleling of the EU2200i's back a couple years ago, but decided not to get another one. We'll see what the future holds. 

I would like to have a generator that runs in the 4-6kw running load/6-8kw starting or so to bridge the gap between the 15k and 2 smaller ones I have. The times I have run the open frame for back-up power here things would be a bit more comfortable with another 1-2kw capacity - enough to have more lights and TV's on with maybe the microwave. With minimal loads I have to set the power on the microwave down lower so it pulses, as opposed to full-bore power the whole time. The generator can't keep up if it runs solid. Just a want, not a need though. I like having split phase capability, though, which is why I use that open frame for back-up. It makes it easier to run circuits on both legs.


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## JJ Ranch (Apr 23, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> Speaking of big inverter generators...
> 
> I went looking in to the EU7000 and I don't see any info on paralleling them in the product description................


This one was on backorder for about six weeks, now I can parallel my two EU7000s 🤠.


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## j.boudreaux88 (Oct 25, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> The one I picked up was 2nd hand. It was bought several years ago and just sat. After the purchase was the supposed "pandemic" and that turned in to the previous owner moving. Once they moved the unit went up for sale, Im surprised they even moved it. In any event, it was never run. For the price I jumped on it. I wasn't going to waste a couple days researching the unit and company for someone else to snag it before I did - it was going to go quick. I tried to get some education on it before I made the purchase as it was advertised as a "15kw Honda generator" - which isn't entirely true. As most on here probably well know - Honda engines are paired with various alternators by many companies, so just because the engine is red and plastered with "Honda" does not mean it was a Honda piece of equipment. Thats when CMD came up - and from that I got the electrical specs off their website (close enough to be comfortable with it) and that it was single phase, not 3-phase (there is an option for that but this doesn't have it). The rest was a mystery - and for the price it didn't really matter. Between my first inquiry, some back-and-forth with the seller, and sold was 2hrs and 2min.
> 
> For reference, the old generator I have is a piece of junk chinese generator I inherited from my grandparents. Guess what? It runs like a champ. So if this one had a Honda engine I knew it was a good power plant with parts availability. So that alone was miles ahead, in my book.
> 
> ...


Hate to dig up an old thread here, but would anyone know how to acquire the black outlet box on this generator by itself? Looking to install a wired outlet box on an alternator like this one but can't seem to find where I can buy just the wired panel.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

j.boudreaux88 said:


> Hate to dig up an old thread here, but would anyone know how to acquire the black outlet box on this generator by itself? Looking to install a wired outlet box on an alternator like this one but can't seem to find where I can buy just the wired panel.


The alternator is a Mecc Alte. The outlet box (with the breaker on it) is Mecc Alte, I do believe. CME just put their sticker on it.

You may contact Mecc Alte and see if you can source the box.

I can tell you that every generator I looked at a while back in this power class seems to have the same alternator based on the castings etc. The Northstar 13kw and 15kw are the same way, although they have a panel on the gen frame and not just an "outlet box with a breaker". So that is a thought - contact Northern Tool and see if they can get parts for their North Star gens.

Edit:
It appears the "box" on the North Star gen is narrower. The one on the one I have is quite a bit higher. Then again, the breakers and outlets are on the frame panel on the North Star, not the box.


https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200467369_200467369



The alternator image on the Mecc Alte portable alternator product page shows the taller box on mine. Its the S20F series, the data sheet is in the link below. 





Portable Generators | Portable Alternators | Mecc Alte


At Mecc Alte the portable alternators we design & manufacture are versatile, easy to instal, maintain, and are suitable for many applications.




www.meccalte.com


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## j.boudreaux88 (Oct 25, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> The alternator is a Mecc Alte. The outlet box (with the breaker on it) is Mecc Alte, I do believe. CME just put their sticker on it.
> 
> You may contact Mecc Alte and see if you can source the box.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. That’s what I was thinking about doing: contacting Mecc Alte to see if they could help. I did email a company that makes generators similar to that after I posted and they stated their box is built to their specs directly from Mecc Alte Alte in Chicago. I did some serious internet searching and came up zeroes.

Also if you don’t mind me asking how’s this genset running for you? How’s the motor run?


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

j.boudreaux88 said:


> Also if you don’t mind me asking how’s this genset running for you? How’s the motor run?


Gen only has 7-8 hours on it I believe - not even past its break in. The time it ran for much time it was very lightly loaded, for the most part.

We have tested it a few times with the whole house. There isn't anything the gen can't run here, nor does it even begin to struggle with any load - including the central AC unit and the clothes dryer on high heat. I have not stacked heavy loads together (such as central AC and clothes dryer at the same time), however with the AC running I can run a smaller room AC and a microwave and it does fine.

I did convert the GX690 to run on propane and natural gas. On natural gas it is a touch lighter on power, as indicated by the amount of sag with the central AC hitting it, but its still what I would call a light sag compared to other gens I have and have used. In fact, I'm very surprised with how light the sag is - I would have never expected that.

The one drawback to this unit is it is the epitome of a "screamer class" generator. This thing is loud when next to it. However, for home backup it is on a side of the house that is furthest away from bedrooms and the unit running outside isn't much of a nuisance inside.

If you look at a lot of "standby" permanent home back up units in this wattage range a lot of them will use this engine - some also spec'd from the factory to run natural gas (Winco makes one, I forget what model it is, but that is the only way it comes - set up for natural gas with the same GX690 engine).

Considering what the "guts" of these units are - this engine and alternator combo - having the bare essentials of this unit on a simple metal base frame with 1 plug and 1 breaker works great for me.

A couple years ago I was really looking at the Northstar 13kw unit. That was the "sweet spot" I calculated for backup power. This 15kw is the next bump up. Looking at the Northstar gen's - they are fancier with the frame, more outlets, and wheel kits available. However, for the deal I got on this one 2nd hand(ish) (gen had never run - it had literally 0 hours on it when I got it) - theres no way I could justify $4500-5000 for one with a few more bells and whistles.

If I were in the market for this class generator I wouldn't hesitate looking at these bare bones style units, either. They are less expensive to start with. In my case, I have small generators for regular power needs (my primary unit is a Honda EU2200i). Only if I have a load that is too big for a small gen, or I'm doing home back up, is the big gen going to fire up. At that point I don't need all the outlets. The 1x 50a plug is all I need.

Just another thought - as far as backup power generators go - the Winco mentioned earlier they are claiming is a "prime use" class generator. This engine/alternator combo is a 3600 RPM unit. There is no 3600 RPM unit on the planet that has been produced, nor will be produced in the future, that will be a true "prime use" generator. Think of the difference between a lawn tractor and a car engine. Would you expect your lawn mower engine to last 7,000 hours? If you have 175,000 miles on your car at an average speed overall of 25mph (including idle time, slow driving, etc) that comes out to 7,000 hours. I highly doubt your lawn mower engine is going to be up to that task under normal conditions. Yes, the Honda GX engines are a higher-end engine. The other benefit they do have is pressurized oil - they have spin-on oil filters like car engines. However, they are still air cooled and are running full throttle in these generators for all their running time.

For a "prime use" engine you need 3 things:

1800 RPM
Liquid cooled (has radiator + fan) 
Pressurized oil - has an external oil filter you can change

With all of that having been said - you won't find a "prime use" generator until you get up to about 20-25kw. The Cummins RS25 is a good example - and we've looked at them. If we did a built-in unit down the road this is the first one I would look hard at. However - at around $17-20k that is a pretty steep entry fee.

On the contrary, considering the quality of the "screamer class" generators - the GX690 engine is way up on the top of the list - so much so that it is what a few of the built-in "stand by" home back up generators actually use. So if I already have one - why do I want to pay $5-8,000 for one in a fancy enclosure that does the same thing with the same "guts"??? So until we can bridge the gap to a true "prime use" unit I think I made out like a bandit with this generator I got. I'm embarrassed to say what I bought it for - and I got a platform cart with it to boot. At this stage, its out of warranty. However, Hondas are pretty easy to get parts for and I already got the service manual for it so I'm set in that regard.


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## j.boudreaux88 (Oct 25, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> Gen only has 7-8 hours on it I believe - not even past its break in. The time it ran for much time it was very lightly loaded, for the most part.
> 
> We have tested it a few times with the whole house. There isn't anything the gen can't run here, nor does it even begin to struggle with any load - including the central AC unit and the clothes dryer on high heat. I have not stacked heavy loads together (such as central AC and clothes dryer at the same time), however with the AC running I can run a smaller room AC and a microwave and it does fine.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. In all honesty I'm asking questions on this because I'm going to build my own. I've looked around and dug into them a little and for the price they are going for, between the one you have, the Winco unit, and a few others who utilize the S20F alternator and Honda GX motor, I can build it myself for a considerable amount of $$ less, and have a little more flexibility in how I set it up. It seems like so far the hardest part to source is the outlet box.

I'm also debating the engine choice for this, which I know is a rabbit hole to get lost in, between the Honda GX, Kohler, and Briggs Vanguard. I'll also be converting to natural gas, since I can't seem to find any dual or tri-fuel models of these engines. I don't mind the noise, as I'll put things in place to mitigate that. I don't necessarily need a prime use generator, but a back up that's commercial grade that I can have confidence in.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

Excellent! I like the thought process and would encourage your adventure with it. Its fun putting things together and making it work. 

Here are a couple other threads that pertain to my escapades in to propane/NG conversions. You can see some of the parts I got or made (I made my own manifolds). 








Honda GX690 on propane (NG coming)


I got my GX690 powered 15kw unit running on propane today. I didn't run it long, just test fired it. I will do some more with it tomorrow - on natural gas also. After wearing the skin off a few fingers pulling the cord start on my smaller unit trying to get it to run on propane the electric...




www.powerequipmentforum.com












LP/NG regulators, kit or piece together? Honda GX690...


All, I picked up a new/never run 15k unit today - has a Honda GX690. I have a couple other smaller generators. One of those is a 3600rpm screamer and the other is an EU2200i Honda inverter. The rotaries I want to convert to NG/LP. I realize the fuel is different energy densities, and thus...




www.powerequipmentforum.com












Natural gas conversion - upgraded gen supply, regulator...


All, This is a continuation of my escapade on getting my 15kw up and running for home backup (its also used portable, so no way to do a hard install since it travels). I got my gas feed upgrade for the generators yesterday. Its pretty simple - just a T, 1" valve, and a sediment trap is all it...




www.powerequipmentforum.com





As far as engines go - I wouldn't hesitate with a newer (post-redesign) Vanguard engine or a Honda GX. I wouldn't touch a Kohler, personally. 

If you are in to really rigging things and want to go a bit off in left field (might be more of an adventure, but higher pride factor?) - you could find a small liquid cooled diesel engine and throttle it at 1800 RPM then put it through a drivetrain to double the shaft RPM at the alternator. This is, of course, if you already have the alternator. If not - maybe try to find one that is 1800 RPM instead. The hard part here is to regulate the engine RPM. 

No matter what set up you go with - the engine RPM is what governs the frequency of a rotary alternator. In North America we use 60hz power. The frequency is more important than the voltage is. If you drag the alternator down with a heavy load it will slow the engine down. That will sag the voltage also, but the bigger issue is the frequency slowing down. So the regulation of the engine RPM to meet what RPM it needs to run at to provide 60hz AC power is going to be the hard part. If you are going through a drivetrain of some kind to get the engine RPM down, while keeping the alternator shaft RPM up, then having a reliable method to do that might be the hardest thing. That may be a task for a Raspberry Pi, tachometer, and servo motor to control the throttle (if you are in to computers, logic control, programming, etc).

A small diesel engine would likely sip fuel also. 

As far as a box goes - if you can't find one - I can get dimensions off mine and you can fabricate something from sheet metal. Thats probably what I would do anyway. If you are diving down the road of putting your own together I would hope you have a lot of mechanical and fabrication skills. Making a functional box like you are after is pretty easy - whether or not it looks pretty is another story, but I don't get the impression you are after a pretty set up - just functional.

No matter what you do, when running the set up - always use appropriate breaker sizes for the outlets you use and wire sizes.

If you end up with several outlets - have your main outlet pulling from your main breaker (50a outlet should get a 50a breaker). Then the best route would be to tie your other breakers to the downstream side of the 50a breaker. So if you have 2x pairs of 20a duplex outlets (one each phase) then tie the input to those 20a breakers to the output of the 50a, not in front of the 50a. The reason for this is if you are trying to protect the alternator at 50a and you put another 20a straight off the alternator now you just gave yourself the potential to pull 70a. The idea is you protect at 50a, always, and not 70a. 

This alternator is rated to 62.5 amps, with a short burst 10% higher I believe. So that is also something to keep in mind. Personally, I like the fact that the alternator is rated higher than the breaker and I can't imagine ever needing to pull enough current to blow the 50a breaker. For a start up load (like the central AC) - if we are running the whole house and the peak draw goes over 50a a bit (the further over the faster the breaker will go) the breaker should still hold. The running load will drop well below, its just that start up load that would be of concern - if we have a lot of other things running. Otherwise, like I said before - even on Natural Gas its hard to tell the generator is loaded when the central AC compressor hits it.


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## j.boudreaux88 (Oct 25, 2021)

FlyFisher said:


> Excellent! I like the thought process and would encourage your adventure with it. Its fun putting things together and making it work.
> 
> Here are a couple other threads that pertain to my escapades in to propane/NG conversions. You can see some of the parts I got or made (I made my own manifolds).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! I'm new here and haven't gotten a chance to look around yet. 

I have no problem fabbing and wiring my own panel, but would much rather outsource that to a professional if one could be purchased. My dad doesn't know I'm going to do this but once I tell him I'm sure it'll turn into a fun project together. 

I've looked into diesel options a little but there's a law of diminishing returns regarding this thing, so I've capped my price point to something reasonable. Down here in South Louisiana it'll get used a few times a year for a few days at a time potentially. So what's "reasonable" for that type of response is taken into consideration. For Hurricane Ida I was out of power for 2 weeks, but that's a rare, extreme circumstance. I was considering a smaller unit to power _some things, _since the bigger units were so much more expensive, but when I did the math on building one I realized I could build the bigger unit for not much more. Also factoring in making life a little too cushy for my kids.... I know growing up with little to no power when the power goes out teaches you certain things, so building a smaller unit isn't quite off the table yet.

I'm going to be installing a soft-start on my 4-ton AC compressor before next spring so that'll decrease my surge amps, and running amps a little, so I'm actually having a hard time deciding what's reasonable and what's too over the top. I'm probably going to go with the GX630 engine since I should have plenty of room with 10,000ish running watts. I almost wish I could drop down to a smaller engine to conserve fuel, but from what I've heard the Honda engines aren't bad on fuel.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

With the background you gave - I am not so sure you want such a big generator for a backup like you are after - unless you need to run central AC. And even at that I would agree with you that a smaller engine might be just the ticket. We do not have a soft-start on our central AC and the GX690 even on NG does not sag much to be of any concern = plenty of engine, but also the bigger engine uses more fuel.

With the options I have and what we've run in the past - dad has a rotary generator around 6kw. With powering essentials here we have plenty of power with the EU2200i at 2200w starting/1800w running. The essentials running normally are only a couple hundred watts until a refrigerator compressor kicks on - and the EU2200i handles it.

The cross over here, ultimately, is when we need to run AC. The reason being how heavy the load is. There isn't an "in between" size generator that will be adequate for the more constant lower loads and the starting load of the AC, so even if we picked a "middle of the road" wattage it would over-shoot the load requirements without the AC, but it wouldn't be enough with the AC.

And that brings me to my point. I have a rotary gen that is also in the 2kw range (I want to say it is labeled at 2600w, but the EU2000i is actually a stronger generator). From the 2 small ones it goes straight to the big 15kw.

If we are on backup power powering essentials it would be nice to have enough head room to run a microwave. However, unless we turn everything else off the small generators don't have the power to do so. For that reason - having a generator in the 3500-5000w range would be ideal. This wouldn't power central AC, but would power a room or window unit - plus the essentials.

You need to take in to consideration what your fuel options are. I think you are already doing that with the thought of doing the propane and natural gas conversions. Natural gas is a blessing if you have it. If you rely on it and it goes out - you're hosed. Then you are on tanked fuels - propane or gasoline. In the aftermath of a hurricane - where are you going to find tanked fuels that are able to be dispensed? Unless you stock up ahead of time you might be out of luck.

That goes right back to why a small inverter generator is ideal - they are so light on fuel you can go a long time on a decent supply of fuel if you have to. You just have to cut out some of the "nice to have's" like AC, and in our case - a lot of times the use of a microwave. But we can cook on propane and wood if we had to, so no problem there.

So think about your options - and do seriously consider the fuel requirements. The GX690 on gasoline with a decent load is in the neighborhood of 1.5 gallons of gasoline per hour of run time. For 1 day (24 hours continuous) that is 36 gallons. For a 3 day outage that is 108 gallons. Where are you going to find that kind of fuel after a disaster? Where are you going to store that kind of fuel? So there again I say a small generator option that is good on fuel and can power essentials is a good idea. And if you can get by without AC then a unit in the 3.5-5kw range would give you enough head room for your essentials plus a microwave from time to time, at the expense of higher fuel consumption.

Again, if you have natural gas you aren't "limited" on fuel supply. But if you rely on it and it goes out you have to consider the tanked options - propane and gasoline. That is a big consideration.

As far as the quality of the Honda engines go, and the (new, not the old) Vanguard engines - if you keep up on the maintenance per the manual you're in good shape on it lasting. There are tricks to get prolonged life out of those engines, also. If you can get a new engine (and I lucked out with my acquisition here on the 15kw - sat unused for several years so I am getting to do the break in) then you have the best leg up on doing things "right and good" from the start. Quality synthetic oil and ZDDP additive are a good way to extend the service life of an engine, among other things - like a magnet on the oil filter, dipstick magnet, etc, etc. If you get a used engine you have no clue how it was cared for, if at all. That would concern me with a piece of equipment that was "critical". 

The other tip with any engine is to have parts on-hand. As for oil changes go on the Honda - I have jugs of oil, bottles of ZDDP, and a bunch of oil filters ready to go. That way when I hit the hour numbers I can do the service right there. I should get more spark plugs, also. That way there is no question of where to get stuff as I need to service. The worst thing is to shoot past your service intervals because you can't stop or you can't get the stuff to do the service when ya need to.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

and look at cat generators as well if you are looking at the LARGE gen sets.
they make a dandy LP / NG gen set for real power.
they city here has switched over to cat for all of the city gen sets.
and the hospital has switched over now as well.

I use the Honda eu series of gens with tri fuel kits.
they work well for me.


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## FlyFisher (Jun 30, 2018)

iowagold said:


> I use the Honda eu series of gens with tri fuel kits.
> they work well for me.


I'll throw this out for generator ideas also. I know Paul here has several EU2200i's that can be paralleled (I want to say up to 4 of them?). This is an interesting option. 

In the case of getting more power at 120v - paralleling generators is an option. If you have multiples of the same model that brings in to commonality of parts. If one goes down you can borrow parts from it to keep the others going. So there are things to consider. 

In the case of fuel efficiency - if you can get by on 1 EU2200i like we can for the essentials, but 1 is too light for the higher loads (microwave or a refrigerator compressor added to more normal loads) then you are forced to run 2 engines to take care of the higher load. However, with that higher level loading being such a small percentage, potentially, of all up run time - you're adding the 2nd engine for a small percentage of load demand. The way my head works - I have a hard time justifying that 2nd engine and doubling the low load fuel consumption. I would rather have the small EU2200i then step up with something like a Duromax XP4500iH at 4500w starting/3600w running. It is a 120v-only generator - but at this wattage you don't need 240. 

Actually... 

The more I type the more my head goes off on tangents. The above brings up a good point - 120v only generators. When you go to rotary generators above about the 3500w range you are going to find they have 240v. Some, usually up to 3500w or so, will have a selector switch that lets you parallel the alternator halves so it can be either dual 120/240v OR 120v only. These are pretty slick.

Until you get north of 7kw on wattage it is pointless to have 240v. All I can think of that runs on 240v that COULD run on a lower wattage generator would be light welding with a welder that has the option of either 120v or 240v. I wouldn't recommend it, though. As far as house loads go - you're not going to run your electric clothes dryer on a 5kw generator. Nor are you going to run your central AC on a 5kw generator. And if you have a large 240v well pump - forget it on a 5kw generator. A small well pump you might get by. 

With that having been said - where you really could use the "power" from a mid range (3.5-7kw) generator is at 120v. However, if you have an alternator that is dual 120/240v you end up with 2 halves of 120v circuits - that can't usually be paralleled like the smaller gens that have the selector switch to do just that. Because of that you end up limited in the amount of current you can draw on 120v. If you have a large draw on 120v - like an electric motor (electric log splitter, 120v well pump, heavy table saw) - even if the "wattage" is there across the whole generator, you may not have the amperage at 120v on one half to get the load to run. So your dual voltage 120/240v generator isn't what it should stack up to be if you aren't aware of this. 

Going back to the big 120v-only inverter generators (like the Duromax mentioned) - they are already set up for higher amps at 120v - and that's all they do. Again, for that size generator - there isn't really any point to having 240v - other than maybe feeding a split phase power panel. But I would rather have everything the generator could put out at 120v and split it back out to the split phase legs, of course not running any 240v circuits when doing so. With that set up you don't run in to the 1/2 available power issue on any 1 leg of 120v (from the generator - if it were split phase where you would run in to the issue). 

Lots of food for thought.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

yup the little eu2200is work for me!
GRIN!
pm if you need links and parts lists for the 4 gen set inlet system.
if you have good fab skills it is a good project.
and fast to connect or switch over.


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