# What's a quality starting battery?



## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

We have a Honda Eu7000 at our cabin that's just over 2 years old. The battery it came with lasted about a year before it wouldn't crank the gennie in cold weather. Hoping for better results, we tried one of these lithium ion batteries https://www.amazon.com/d/Motorcycle-Batteries/YTX14-BS-Lithium-Factory-Powersports-Battery/B01G7SCMVI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540232774&sr=8-3&keywords=lithium+ion+powersports+battery I don't know if that's the exact one, but you get the idea. Now a year later, when the temp dropped to the low 20s overnight, it wouldn't turn over. This is with daily use over the last couple weeks so not like it's been sitting. After starting with the recoil and running for a while, it will start off the battery again. But first thing on a cold morning, it won't turn over. I've contemplated getting a much larger battery and locating it (obviously) outside the unit and extending the cables. But first, if anyone has suggestions for a proper sized battery that will last longer than a year and still crank in cold weather, I'm all ears.


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

Personally, I would be wondering if there's something else going on. 

Have you checked the valve clearances recently? If the clearances are too large, the compression release may not be operating properly, making the engine harder to turn over. I'd be curious what a compression test shows for pressure. 

Are you using a suitable weight of oil? In cold weather, I've heard synthetic can be a little thinner, making things like snowblowers easier to start. 

Does the battery voltage test ok? Is the charging circuit keeping it at a proper voltage? 

A weak starter motor could also cause problems, but that's expensive to swap out, just to see if it helped. 

Just to mention it, you can get solar powered battery maintainers for about $20. Just in case a system to help keep the battery topped off, without needing an AC outlet, was helpful.


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

RedOctobyr said:


> Personally, I would be wondering if there's something else going on.
> 
> Have you checked the valve clearances recently? If the clearances are too large, the compression release may not be operating properly, making the engine harder to turn over. I'd be curious what a compression test shows for pressure.
> 
> ...


Still would like opinions on battery brands that seem to last.


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

The last battery I put in my tractor was a Duracell Heavy Duty, from Bateries + Bulbs. That was in May of 2017, it's still doing well. Though I got smart this winter and kept it on a battery maintainer over the winter, so it wasn't allowed to self-discharge, which I understand can be tough on a battery. 

The previous battery was a Walmart battery, which lasted 2 years. That one didn't get a battery maintainer over the winter, though, which may have made things worse. 

Sounds like you have a lot of this under control already. Are all your electrical connections clean? No rust issues? Maybe an auto parts store could test the battery for you. At the moment, you may not have a great way to evaluate whether the battery is getting weak, vs whether it's all the other things combining to give you trouble (the weather, etc). 

If it doesn't need to be mobile, a larger external battery could be worth exploring. Or maybe something like external jump terminals? So you could connect a 2nd battery just when it's needed.


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

In addition to checking the voltage while charging, I'd check the voltage of the battery before starting it. Just in case there's some sort of drain on the battery while the unit is off. You could also connect a multimeter inline with the red lead and check for amps of current flowing while it's off, for a more-direct measurement of that. 

Lithium batteries are great, though I'm not familiar with using them as starter batteries. I didn't realize they were available for that use. 

For a hobby, we used lithium polymer batteries. For use in cold weather, the suggestion was to keep the batteries warm before use, like keeping them in an inside pocket of your coat. They would be less powerful when cold (like most batteries), and would otherwise take a few minutes to "wake up" during use, as the high current draw warmed them up. 

So they're still sensitive to cold temps, for large current draws. It's conceivable that you had bad luck with the first battery, and that the lithium one isn't providing as much benefit as would be hoped. Maybe everything is perfectly normal, and you just had a bad run of batteries. 

Is it possible to shoehorn a larger-capacity (higher CCA) battery into the generator? For my tractor (and my car), I use the biggest that will still fit.

Keeping the solar battery maintainer connected would also help you keep your "best foot forward". As long as it doesn't cause trouble with the lithium battery. They charge very differently than lead-acid batteries. Maybe the battery has internal safety mechanisms, to help protect it from charging damage?


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

Battery is sitting at 13v prior to cranking but dropping into the 9s while cranking. It starts so quickly, it's hard to get an accurate cranking voltage. Charging at 14.5v. I'm thinking this battery isn't cutting it. I'm bringing a relatively new wet cell from my snowmobile up next week to check the cranking voltage drop with that. I couldn't find anything in the service manual about proper cranking voltage.


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

An auto parts store might be able to test the battery for you. They tested my car battery last year, and I believe they entered the CCA's of the battery into the testing machine, since the test load it applies should be based on battery size. Maybe they can also test smaller batteries. 



I don't know what an acceptable voltage should be while cranking. If you need more time to watch the voltage, pull the spark plug wire off the plug. The engine will still be hard to turn, but it won't start, so you can crank it as long as you want. 



This page has some info on testing car voltage while cranking: 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a2074/4221215/


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## markd (Feb 22, 2014)

I haven't had to change the battery on my 5 year old generator yet, but I have changed out a few on my lawn tractor. On average batteries have been lasting 3 years on the tractor. Last time I put in an Interstate battery, and I'm just finishing up year 6. I'm not sure if it's the brand or I just got a good battery.As mentioned above, its very important to keep a charger on there, if you are not running it. My tractor battery is on a charger all winter and then is used weekly the rest of the year. The generator is on a charger all the time.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Voltage while cranking, as long as it's cranking strongly, is really not important. The current the starter motor draws should pull the battery voltage down to 9 to 10 volts.

As the others said, a good desulfating charger like an OptiMate4 https://tecmate.com/products/optimate4dp/ or a BatteryMINDer 12V 2A Desulfating Battery Charger Maintainer | Worldwide Use is the key to long life for seasonal use batteries.

A typical 12-volt lead-acid battery must be taken to approximately 14.2-14.4 VDC by the on-board charging circuit before it is fully charged. If taken to a lesser voltage level, some of the sulfate deposits that form during discharge will remain on the plates. Over time, these deposits will cause a 200 amp-hour battery to act more like a 100 amp-hour battery, and battery life will be considerably shortened. Once fully charged, batteries should be held at a considerably lower voltage to maintain their charge - typically 13.2 to 13.4 volts.


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

Guys, keep in mind the current battery is Lithium, not lead acid. Those rules don't apply.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

blackburb said:


> Guys, keep in mind the current battery is Lithium, not lead acid. Those rules don't apply.


Well, I thought you were asking what battery (and charging equipment) should be used to replace the Lithium Ion battery, since it wasn't doing the job for you. The original Honda-supplied battery was a YUASA YTZ14S 11.8AH 230 CCA. 12V x 11.8Ah = 141.6Wh

That Lithium Ion you linked to is 300 CCA, but only 60Wh. The maintenance charging is also very different than a lead/acid battery. It must be charged with a voltage of 14V minimum to 15V maximum, and requires a special charger, like the OptiMate Lithium 4S. Per TecMate: _*Lead-acid and lithium batteries operate the same in the vehicle ONLY within the range of 13 to 14.4V.* Below that it changes : a lithium (LiFePO4) is close to 0% at 12.8V, it has no useful power left to give, around the same voltage where the sealed AGM lead-acid battery is at full charge (12.7 to 12.9V)!_


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

I was indeed asking about batteries. But not charging equipment. I'm well versed in the care and feeding of lead acid batteries. I'm also extremely disappointed in the longevity of said batteries. I have a cordless string trimmer and a cordless leaf blower that came with SLAs that don't last for sh*t (and those both sit plugged into the chargers they came with 100% of the time per their instructions). I've gone thru countless powersports batteries in atvs and snowmobiles that don't last for sh*t. And now, the original battery in a Honda generator that cost as much as a good used car died after only a year. This is bullshit. We tried the lithium in hopes it would outlast the lead acid, but now that doesn't seem to be the case either. Frustrating


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

Setting aside the lead-acid for the moment, tabora's point about the voltage of the lithium battery is a good one. Depending on the chemistry, lithium batteries will have different voltages when they're fully charged. A lithium polymer (LiPo) is fully-charged at 4.2V per cell. LiFePO4 cells have a different fully-charged voltage. And lithium ion (LiIon) are different still, I think. 

But for use in a hobby, we would avoid discharging LiPo cells below 3.7V, with no load. They can go a little lower, but that's the safe guideline on how low to run them. I don't know what exact cells are in your battery, but using LiPo as a hypothetical example, 4S at 3.7V/cell would be 14.8V, and close to fully-discharged. If you had that hypothetical battery at 13V, that might be fine for lead-acid, but would be too-low, and pretty much over-discharged, for LiPo. As soon as you put a load on it, the voltage would drop off quickly. 

So some further research on your specific battery, and what charge range the manufacturer recommends, might be useful. The one you linked has a built-in capacity (presumably voltage) tester, which might provide at least a crude check. If the generator's charging system is keeping it at a voltage suitable for lead-acid, but low for lithium, that certainly wouldn't help matters, anyways. 

As for the first battery, who knows? It's under warranty, you could talk to Honda. Maybe you just got a dud. You said this is in cold conditions, how cold is that? If it's failing to start in 5F, then maybe they'd consider that acceptable, for what could be termed a general-use generator. The Interstate brand feedback seems worth looking into.


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

The lithium-ion powersports battery is designed to replace a lead acid. I would hope they take into account the typical charging systems. The only warning with it was not to charge over 15 volts and that's not a concern.


As to the original battery, while the gennie has a 3 year warranty, the battery is only covered for one and it was past that. The dealer's recommendation was, "Don't buy it from us cuz it's over $200! Just go online and find one." That search is what led to trying the lithium.


For better than $4000, we d*mn well expect this thing to start in the dead of winter. Could easily be -20. The gennie is located 150 feet from the cabin and has a remote start so we don't have to get cold to get it started. However, this issue occurred at around +20, so not really cold yet.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

blackburb said:


> The lithium-ion powersports battery is designed to replace a lead acid. I would hope they take into account the typical charging systems. The only warning with it was not to charge over 15 volts and that's not a concern.
> 
> As to the original battery, while the gennie has a 3 year warranty, the battery is only covered for one and it was past that. The dealer's recommendation was, "Don't buy it from us cuz it's over $200! Just go online and find one." That search is what led to trying the lithium.
> 
> For better than $4000, we d*mn well expect this thing to start in the dead of winter. Could easily be -20. The gennie is located 150 feet from the cabin and has a remote start so we don't have to get cold to get it started. However, this issue occurred at around +20, so not really cold yet.


You don't have a generator problem; you have a battery maintenance problem. See Honda's recommendations here: https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/caring-for-low-maintenance-generator-batteries

On my Onan MicroLite 2800 that powers a remote camp on an island, instead of a small powersports battery as specified I used a $30 U1 size Duracell garden tractor battery https://www.samsclub.com/sams/durac...-size-eu1l/prod3590226.ip?xid=plp_product_1_1 PLUS an external desulfating charger to charge/condition the battery while the generator is running. Therefore, the battery is always in optimal condition when we shut down the generator, which is behind a shed 100' from the cottage.

That seems to work fine for warm/cool weather, and so far the generator has always started, even after weeks away. This is critical, since there's no recoil starter, unlike your EU7000. I also have a $75 Group 24 Duracell deep cycle/starting battery https://www.samsclub.com/sams/durac...-size-24dc/prod3590219.ip?xid=plp_product_1_5 in the cottage on a separate charger that we use for fans, radios, CPAP, etc. when the generator isn't running. It's also a fail-safe for the generator battery, since our car is parked hundreds of feet away from the house, near the road. In the winter, both batteries and their chargers come home when I leave and travel back with me when I go to camp. So far, this arrangement has worked perfectly. 

Where you have the recoil starter for emergencies, I'm guessing that a U1 battery/charger combo would probably solve your needs if you visit monthly or so year round, with the solar charger covering for longer absences.


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

I know it's a battery problem hence the title of this thread. And I think I have an answer. I found the manual for the lithium battery today and in small print in the list of cautions it says cranking power will be reduced when temps are below 23* farenheit. So I think we're going to buy an old fashioned, made in the USA Yuasa wet cell and see how that performs.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

Best of luck to you... I still recommend either:

1. Get the correct lithium-capable charger for your current battery and see if that solves your problem. A no-load voltage of 13VDC is almost dead. You may need a lithium-capable solar charger, too?

2. Get a traditional lead/acid or AGM battery and get that solar charger set up and if that doesn't suffice, get an external charger too.


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## blackburb (Jul 12, 2016)

To update, I installed the battery linked to below yesterday. It was 10° this morning and the generator fired right up. The battery is almost double the AH and 50% higher CCA than the oem battery. It's the same brand currently in my ATV and I've had good success so far with that one. I attached a small shelf to the lower grab rail and mounted the battery just outside the factory battery compartment. The positive cable was long enough to reach and I added a short extension to the ground cable.


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## RedOctobyr (Aug 8, 2018)

Nice! I'm glad it's working better, good luck with it! It may be a slightly "crude" solution, to throw more battery at the problem, but it makes a lot of sense, to me. A good-quality battery, combined with larger capacity, will both combine to put you in a better position. And even as the battery ages, the extra capacity will still help you stay functional longer. I put the largest-capacity battery I can in my car, to help avoid trouble on cold winter days.


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