# My Son's Generator



## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

So, I was preparing to give my son the Coleman generator my brother in law currently has. It's a 5 kw run, 6.2 kw surge non-inverter. I really don't need it and it's a 3,600 rpm screamer. I figured he probably didn't have one after Ida last September and he could use one to keep some lights and the fridge going. Turns out, he had a generator the entire time. His job gave him one. I was surprised to hear that. I had him send me some pics of it. Turns out, it's a Porter + Cable generator, BSV550-W-1. Looks like it was built in 2006. This is a pic of an identical unit:



















The first pic is one I found on the web. I don't know much about the generators from Porter + Cable. It has the Briggs and Stratton Vanguard 9HP motor. I think the engine is very similar to the Briggs on the Coleman. I think the Porter generators were rebadged Black and Decker models, although I'm not sure. 

My son told me that the generator had been kept in a warehouse all these years, so it sounds like it was stored properly. He used it for the outage after Ida, so it ran. I told him we should probably go ahead and give it a tune up. The oil is probably from 2006 and it's still likely using the original plug. I was able to finally cross-reference the plug to an NGK equivalent. It seems to use the same plug that the Coleman uses, as well as my Snapper rider with the Briggs engine. That took forever to figure out. This generator hasn't been made in probably about 10 years, so there's not a lot of info out there about it. I think it takes 32oz of oil. I don't think it has an oil filter like the Briggs on my Snapper. I told my son we should go ahead and replace the fuel lines and filter since those are likely from 2006. It has a plastic fuel tank, so rust won't be an issue. It doesn't sound like it's been used much over the years. I'll still pull the carb and inspect it. 

Can you guys think of anything else? Anyone know anything else about this generator? It really seems very similar to the Coleman. I'll put one of my scopes on it when I get the generator tuned up. I'm expecting a jagged waveform, but we'll see.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> I think the Porter generators were rebadged Black and Decker models, although I'm not sure.


Porter-Cable was acquired by Stanley Black & Decker in October, 2004. No generators are listed on the Porter-Cable web site any longer, but I was able to link through to the manual and parts site:





BSV550-W_1 | ServiceNet


1




www.toolservicenet.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

tabora said:


> Porter-Cable was acquired by Stanley Black & Decker in October, 2004. No generators are listed on the Porter-Cable web site any longer, but I was able to link through to the manual and parts site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found an owners manual for the unit, but it's pretty basic. The maintenance section doesn't even list the oil capacity. I had to go to the Briggs website and look up the motor directly. There's no listing for the spark plug in the manual. I had to do a ton of cross-referencing to get the NGK plug, and then there were about 30 different plugs that can be used. The 32 oz oil capacity sounds about right, though, for the engine size. I figure it uses a gravity fuel setup rather than a fuel pump, so that should make things easier. 

I wanted to tune everything up so he'll be ready for whatever the season brings.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

If you have a meter that reads capacitance, you might check the capacitor to see if it is near 40μF. It is probably okay but wouldn't hurt to check it.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> If you have a meter that reads capacitance, you might check the capacitor to see if it is near 40μF. It is probably okay but wouldn't hurt to check it.


I do. Where would it be located on the generator? 

The generator hasn't seen much use, but I guess the cap could suffer from age.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Where would it be located on the generator?


Behind end cover on alternator.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Ah, okay. I saw a video on it. It's right there once you remove the cover. 

I wonder... would a higher quality cap clean up a noisy signal? I was thinking about my Firman generator. Maybe switch to an Amrad cap? Would that help any?


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Ah, okay. I saw a video on it. It's right there once you remove the cover.
> 
> I wonder... would a higher quality cap clean up a noisy signal? I was thinking about my Firman generator. Maybe switch to an Amrad cap? Would that help any?


I don't think it will clean it up in any way. What I know is that if you use the wrong value for the cap, the output voltage would be off.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> would a higher quality cap clean up a noisy signal?


I doubt it would produce a better waveform, but they probably put the lowest quality cap on it at the factory. So, if you have a high quality 40μF/370VAC capacitor laying around that fits it wouldn't hurt to put it on.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> I doubt it would produce a better waveform, but they probably put the lowest quality cap on it at the factory. So, if you have a high quality 40μF/370VAC capacitor laying around that fits it wouldn't hurt to put it on.


Darn. I was hoping I'd see some improvement. The Firman waveform output is disappointing, to say the least. I agree, they likely use the cheapest cap they can. A good Amrad cap would be better, at least on the inside. Is 40 uF the standard cap value for generators?


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I may have to pull the cap and see what it looks like. The ones I've seen are shaped like half moons. Not the standard round can type.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Is 40 uF the standard cap value for generators?


No, but it is a common cap. I see on the parts listing for this gen that the cap is 40μF/370VAC. When you check it out, it should have the rating on the side of it (providing it hasn't weathered off).


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> No, but it is a common cap. I see on the parts listing for this gen that the cap is 40μF/370VAC. When you check it out, it should have the rating on the side of it (providing it hasn't weathered off).


Any idea what the half-moon shaped caps are for the Firman generators? I'm guessing that probably means it's a proprietary part? I was really hoping to swap it out with an Amrad cap.

ETA: All of the Amrad caps have the +5 or +7.5 fan connector. Those are for a/c units. Can I use one of those in a generator? Does the extra fan connector make a difference?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Any idea what the half-moon shaped caps are for the Firman generators? I'm guessing that probably means it's a proprietary part?


It depends on the generator. They have different capacitances for the various model. And no, the half-moon shaped cap is not proprietary to Firman. Here is an example...








Amazon.com: ITACO 24uF 23UF 22.8uf 25.2uf Generator Capacitor Condenser Generator AVR Cbb61 for Brushless Alternator 24 Uf 23UF 25UF 50 60hz 450v Ac Pin Style Motor 140mm Hole to Hole Diesel Engine : Industrial & Scientific


Amazon.com: ITACO 24uF 23UF 22.8uf 25.2uf Generator Capacitor Condenser Generator AVR Cbb61 for Brushless Alternator 24 Uf 23UF 25UF 50 60hz 450v Ac Pin Style Motor 140mm Hole to Hole Diesel Engine : Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> It depends on the generator. They have different capacitances for the various model. And no, the half-moon shaped cap is not proprietary to Firman. Here is an example...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would the half-moon cap take the place of the round can-style cap?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> All of the Amrad caps have the +5 or +7.5 fan connector. Those are for a/c units. Can I use one of those in a generator? Does the extra fan connector make a difference?


If the capacitance and the voltage match the one you need, then it should work fine. It would need to physically fit also. The extra fan connector on the cap shouldn't matter...you just wouldn't use it.



LaSwamp said:


> Would the half-moon cap take the place of the round can-style cap?


If it fits inside the gen endcap okay, then it should be fine to replace round with half-moon. The shape of the cap doesn't influence how it works.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> If the capacitance and the voltage match the one you need, then it should work fine. It would need to physically fit also. The extra fan connector on the cap shouldn't matter...you just wouldn't use it.
> 
> 
> If it fits inside the gen endcap okay, then it should be fine to replace round with half-moon. The shape of the cap doesn't influence how it works.


It looks like it might already use the half-moon design. I was hoping to swap it out with the Amrad round can-style. But I know what you mean, I would have to open it up to see if it could fit.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Is the AVR and the cap the same thing? I found the AVR on a schematic, but I don't see a reference to a capacitor. The AVR is that half-moon shaped thing on the inside of the alternator cover. I didn't see anything that looked like a small, round can.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Is the AVR and the cap the same thing? I found the AVR on a schematic, but I don't see a reference to a capacitor


No, the AVR and the cap are totally different. The AVRs are usually half-moon shaped. Are you talking about your Firman or the Porter Cable when you say on the schematic?


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> No, the AVR and the cap are totally different. The AVRs are usually half-moon shaped. Are you talking about your Firman or the Porter Cable when you say on the schematic?


Weird. The Porter has what appears to be a round, can-shaped cap located inside the alternator cover. I can't find the cap on the Firman, though. I can link you to the schematic I was looking at. You'd probably spot it right away. The AVR is clear as day. I have no idea where the cap is. 

Link


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

The Porter Cable and the Firman are totally different in how they achieve and regulate output voltage. The Porter Cable uses a capacitor to supply the excitation windings. The Firman uses an AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator) which is an electronic circuit board. The gens will have one or the other types, but not both, so that is why you don't see the cap on the Firman schematic.

The capacitor excited gens are not adjustable and often the output voltage will vary considerably as the load changes. The gens using an AVR are much more stable and usually have a potentiometer on the back side to adjust the output voltage of the gen. The potentiometer can be seen below (it is the blue part)...


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Ah, okay. I'm guessing using a cap is older tech and all of the newer designs use an AVR. So I could, theoretically, install a new AVR of higher quality in my Firman?


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Yes, two different technologies. The cap is old school tech.

I don't know where you would find a "higher quality" AVR for your Firman. Maybe they make them...I don't know. It wouldn't cleanup a dirty generator (high THD) though if that is what you are trying to do.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> Yes, two different technologies. The cap is old school tech.
> 
> I don't know where you would find a "higher quality" AVR for your Firman. Maybe they make them...I don't know. It wouldn't cleanup a dirty generator (high THD) though if that is what you are trying to do.


I guess the Firman is as good as it's going to get. That's okay. I only use it to power the hot plate and the coffee maker. As for the Porter, I would presume a better cap wouldn't hurt. The one in there now is 16 years old.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

Yup, the older capacitor gens are fine for running a saw on a jobsite or your hot plate. I wouldn't put them on my TV.

Your Firman has a THD rating of 25% at full load. I'd be careful with what I connected to that. Nothing sensitive! And yes, I know many people do it anyway.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> As for the Porter, I would presume a better cap wouldn't hurt. The one in there now is 16 years old.


On my older capacitor-regulated generators, the cap was always good until it wasn't, as in no power output. The throttle butterfly on my PowerMate PM1500 stuck in the full open position and after starting it up the voltage spiked to 300+ and the cap went boom. The hardest part in that case was finding the correct cap to replace it, since there was nothing left to read the specs off. That's what originally brought me to this forum in September 2018.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

Rule of thumb with caps is to use the same uF value and tolerance. However, you can opt for a higher voltage rating for a bit more safety margin. The downside is that the higher the voltage (all else being equal), the bigger its physical size. But if it can physically fit, it should work like the original.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I will pull the cover off the alternator and see what kind of space the OEM capacitor is mounted in. I found the part number for the original can. It looks pretty small, but we'll see. 

Does it matter which ends are connected to the Common and Herm tabs? I'll just tape over the Fan tab so it doesn't cause any trouble.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> I will pull the cover off the alternator and see what kind of space the OEM capacitor is mounted in. I found the part number for the original can. It looks pretty small, but we'll see.
> 
> Does it matter which ends are connected to the Common and Herm tabs? I'll just tape over the Fan tab so it doesn't cause any trouble.


Generator capacitors don't have C or Herm markings on them, unless you plan to use caps meant for air condition motors?

In this application, since the current flow is AC, it doesn't matter which wire goes to which terminal on the cap.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Generator capacitors don't have C or Herm markings on them, unless you plan to use caps meant for air condition motors?
> 
> In this application, since the current flow is AC, it doesn't matter which wire goes to which terminal on the cap.


I'd like to use an Amrad cap since they are considered one of the best. The only ones I've seen so far are the a/c ones, though. They do have caps in the 5-10 uF range, but it looks like I'm going to need a 40 uF one. So, indeed, it appears I may have to go with an a/c cap, if I can find one that fits. I saw a 'tube video where a guy had the exact same model generator as my son. It wasn't producing power so he replaced the cap with a Genteq a/c cap and it worked perfectly. He was able to get it to fit, so I presume there's some room behind the alternator cover for a larger cap.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> I'd like to use an Amrad cap since they are considered one of the best. The only ones I've seen so far are the a/c ones, though. They do have caps in the 5-10 uF range, but it looks like I'm going to need a 40 uF one. So, indeed, it appears I may have to go with an a/c cap, if I can find one that fits. I saw a 'tube video where a guy had the exact same model generator as my son. It wasn't producing power so he replaced the cap with a Genteq a/c cap and it worked perfectly. He was able to get it to fit, so I presume there's some room behind the alternator cover for a larger cap.


I've actually heard of people use motor run caps on generators with good results. I think the idea here is to use the "run" caps and not the "start" caps. The run caps are rated for continuous duty. Start caps, they say, tends to overheat and will have a very short lifespan on a generator.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> I've actually heard of people use motor run caps on generators with good results. I think the idea here is to use the "run" caps and not the "start" caps. The run caps are rated for continuous duty. Start caps, they say, tends to overheat and will have a very short lifespan on a generator.


I hadn't thought about that. Most run-only capacitors I've seen tend to be for fans, which don't typically need 40 uF. They max out at about 10 uF. I'll have to do some digging to see what my options are. I'll bet the Coleman generator I have also has a cap. I'll have to check when I get it back from my brother in law.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> I hadn't thought about that. Most run-only capacitors I've seen tend to be for fans, which don't typically need 40 uF. They max out at about 10 uF. I'll have to do some digging to see what my options are. I'll bet the Coleman generator I have also has a cap. I'll have to check when I get it back from my brother in law.


Quick look and I found this. Ignore the 5uF terminal and just put a tape or shrink tube over it so it's not accidentally used.









40 + 5 uf/Mfd Round Dual Universal Capacitor Amrad USA2235 w/CPT Terminal - Used for 370 or 440 VAC, Made in The U.S.A.: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


40 + 5 uf/Mfd Round Dual Universal Capacitor Amrad USA2235 w/CPT Terminal - Used for 370 or 440 VAC, Made in The U.S.A.: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Quick look and I found this. Ignore the 5uF terminal and just put a tape or shrink tube over it so it's not accidentally used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't that considered a start cap? Or, at least the 40 uF portion of the cap? How can you tell the difference between a run cap and a start cap?


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Isn't that considered a start cap? Or, at least the 40 uF portion of the cap? How can you tell the difference between a run cap and a start cap?


Amrad has a different product line designated as motor start capacitors.

The product I linked above is their run cap. It's even written on the label.



> Industrial grade for motor run appliacations


One caveat though as this was primarily designed for HVAC applications, I wonder if the Compressor Protection Terminal (CPT) feature on this cap is a potential source of concern.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Amrad has a different product line designated as motor start capacitors.
> 
> The product I linked above is their run cap. It's even written on the label.
> 
> ...


Could the Compressor Protection Terminal cause an issue?


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Could the Compressor Protection Terminal cause an issue?


You got me.

But it seems it's just an extra terminal on the cap so it's likely defeated if you don't use it, I guess? The only two terminals that's pertinent to generator use are the Common and Herm. That's where the 40uF is at.

I think it's prudent to get in touch with Amrad and ask what they'll recommend for generator applications.


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## GenKnot (Dec 20, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Could the Compressor Protection Terminal cause an issue?


From the Amazon question section of the above cap (if this guy knows what he is talking about) the extra CPT terminal shouldn't cause an issue...


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I remember seeing those extra terminals on the new Amrad cap I installed last year on my outside compressor unit. I was wondering what they were for since the previous revisions of the cap didn't have them. I don't have a hard start kit on my a/c, so I'm not using that terminal.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> As for the Porter, I would presume a better cap wouldn't hurt. The one in there now is 16 years old.


You can easily test the existing capacitor. First step is visual; if it's bulged or burst, it will be obvious. If it looks OK, use this procedure: 

To test a capacitor, a digital multi-meter that can test capacitance is required. To test a capacitor, it must first be removed from the generator and discharged. Be careful when removing the wire leads that a short is not created across the capacitors terminals. To discharge, use a screwdriver with an insulated handle to cross the terminals on the capacitor (this will result in a loud pop and a spark). Once discharged, take a reading from the capacitor. The measured capacitance should be +/-5uF of the specified rating printed on the side of the capacitor. If not, the capacitor should be replaced.​
If you only have an analog multi-meter, disconnect leads from capacitor & Discharge capacitor by shorting terminals with insulated jumper wire or screwdriver with insulated handle.
Switch meter to Ohms x 1000 scale. Touch leads to the capacitor terminals.
You should see the resistance start very low, near zero, gradually increase towards infinity and then return back to zero.
Discharge capacitor, reverse leads and repeat.
If you do not see the charge / discharge pattern, you have a failed capacitor that must be replaced.​


OrlyP said:


> Start caps, they say, tends to overheat and will have a very short lifespan on a generator.


FYI, There are some other numbers on a capacitor that are of some importance in the long haul...

What does the 40/085/21 mean?
That is the Climatic category. The climatic category indicates the climatic conditions in which the capacitor may be operated. The climatic category is expressed by a three group coding.​- The first group indicates the lower category temperature (- 40 °C).​- The second group the upper category temperature (+ 85 °C).​- The third group indicates the number of days (21) which the capacitor can withstand within specified limits if exposed to a relative humidity of 95 % and a temperature of + 40 °C.​


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

tabora said:


> You can easily test the existing capacitor. First step is visual; if it's bulged or burst, it will be obvious. If it looks OK, use this procedure:
> 
> To test a capacitor, a digital multi-meter that can test capacitance is required. To test a capacitor, it must first be removed from the generator and discharged. Be careful when removing the wire leads that a short is not created across the capacitors terminals. To discharge, use a screwdriver with an insulated handle to cross the terminals on the capacitor (this will result in a loud pop and a spark). Once discharged, take a reading from the capacitor. The measured capacitance should be +/-5uF of the specified rating printed on the side of the capacitor. If not, the capacitor should be replaced.​
> If you only have an analog multi-meter, disconnect leads from capacitor & Discharge capacitor by shorting terminals with insulated jumper wire or screwdriver with insulated handle.​Switch meter to Ohms x 1000 scale. Touch leads to the capacitor terminals.​You should see the resistance start very low, near zero, gradually increase towards infinity and then return back to zero.​Discharge capacitor, reverse leads and repeat.​If you do not see the charge / discharge pattern, you have a failed capacitor that must be replaced.​
> ...


I suspect the one in the Porter is okay since my son used it last summer after Ida. But I will bring along the DMM to test it to make sure it's still good. I wanted to get him something a bit newer to have in the generator in the event we get something this season. He very likely didn't drain the carb properly after the storm outage last year, so I'm sure I will have to run a wire through the jet and give everything else a good spray down with the carb cleaner. I suspect the engine is similar, if not identical, to the one I have on the Coleman. With new fuel line and filter, fresh oil, and a new spark plug, he should be good to go. 

Tabora, were you able to figure out which cap you needed? I was curious about that when you mentioned it earlier.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> Tabora, were you able to figure out which cap you needed? I was curious about that when you mentioned it earlier.


Oh yes, I ended up with a 7.5uF 350V CBB61 Generator Run Capacitor. It cost a whopping $3.29 including shipping. The PowerMate PM1500 was back in business quickly. I sold it back in 2020. Got over 2 decades of use...


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

tabora said:


> Oh yes, I ended up with a 7.5uF 350V CBB61 Generator Run Capacitor. It cost a whopping $3.29 including shipping. The PowerMate PM1500 was back in business quickly. I sold it back in 2020. Got over 2 decades of use...
> View attachment 12134


Did you ever scope it? That looks old school for sure.


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> Did you ever scope it?


Nope.


LaSwamp said:


> That looks old school for sure.


Bought it new from Kmart in 1989 if memory serves... Used it whenever we were at our off-grid cottage on Vinalhaven, typically 6-8 hours every evening, and as needed during the day for projects. Mostly ran lights and charged a bank of 12V batteries to run the water pump, TV, radios, etc. It lived in a ventilated, insulated truck box with fan cooling and a 6 gallon marine fuel tank on top of the box at one end. It could just barely start/run my circular saw, but the sawzall was no problem. Had remote stop buttons (doorbells) in the shed and by my bed in the cottage.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

tabora said:


> Nope.
> 
> Bought it new from Kmart in 1989 if memory serves... Used it whenever we were at our off-grid cottage on Vinalhaven, typically 6-8 hours every evening, and as needed during the day for projects. Mostly ran lights and charged a bank of 12V batteries to run the water pump, TV, radios, etc. It lived in a ventilated, insulated truck box with fan cooling and a 6 gallon marine fuel tank on top of the box at one end. It could just barely start/run my circular saw, but the sawzall was no problem. Had remote stop buttons (doorbells) in the shed and by my bed in the cottage.
> View attachment 12135


Sounds like it was a nice setup. How long would it run with the 6-gallon tank?


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## tabora (Sep 6, 2018)

LaSwamp said:


> How long would it run with the 6-gallon tank?


A 3-day weekend+. It used about 0.15 GPH. The built-in tank was 1.5 gallons IIRC and ran it for 10+ hours. It was a nice little Kawasaki flathead.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

back to the gen trash.
most of that is slot noise and stator not wound perfect...
it is all about time on the rotation.
that is why i like the inverter gens.
computer controlled clock.
so as long as the inverter is in good shape you are set!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

My son finally brought his generator to my workshop so we could work on it. We changed the oil. It was in bad shape. It may have been the original oil from 2006. We changed the spark plug. It was most certainly the original Champion plug. Everything else looked good on it. We started it up without a hitch. It ran really well, but it sounded like it was running fast. I put the meter on it and it showed 145 volts at 67 Hz. I tinkered with it for a while but could not figure out how to lower the idle. There were two screws that seemed to prevent the engine from running at too low of a speed, but nothing to keep it from idling fast. I finally took a large paper clip and fashioned a loop out of it to restrict the throttle arm. We got the VAC down to about 127 volts at 63 Hz. Does anyone know how the idle is adjusted on these rigs? It runs really well. It's just running high.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> My son finally brought his generator to my workshop so we could work on it. We changed the oil. It was in bad shape. It may have been the original oil from 2006. We changed the spark plug. It was most certainly the original Champion plug. Everything else looked good on it. We started it up without a hitch. It ran really well, but it sounded like it was running fast. I put the meter on it and it showed 145 volts at 67 Hz. I tinkered with it for a while but could not figure out how to lower the idle. There were two screws that seemed to prevent the engine from running at too low of a speed, but nothing to keep it from idling fast. I finally took a large paper clip and fashioned a loop out of it to restrict the throttle arm. We got the VAC down to about 127 volts at 63 Hz. Does anyone know how the idle is adjusted on these rigs? It runs really well. It's just running high.


Can you share a few photos of the governor and throttle linkages?


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## pipe (Jun 27, 2021)

Around 11:30 on this video - perhaps ?


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> My son finally brought his generator to my workshop so we could work on it. We changed the oil. It was in bad shape. It may have been the original oil from 2006. We changed the spark plug. It was most certainly the original Champion plug. Everything else looked good on it. We started it up without a hitch. It ran really well, but it sounded like it was running fast. I put the meter on it and it showed 145 volts at 67 Hz. I tinkered with it for a while but could not figure out how to lower the idle. There were two screws that seemed to prevent the engine from running at too low of a speed, but nothing to keep it from idling fast. I finally took a large paper clip and fashioned a loop out of it to restrict the throttle arm. We got the VAC down to about 127 volts at 63 Hz. Does anyone know how the idle is adjusted on these rigs? It runs really well. It's just running high.


hey swamp make and model please.


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## pipe (Jun 27, 2021)

Make & Model in his opening post


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

GenKnot said:


> If you have a meter that reads capacitance, you might check the capacitor to see if it is near 40μF. It is probably okay but wouldn't hurt to check it.


I did get a chance to test the cap. It read around 39.5 uF. So, the cap is still good. It's pretty small. It's about 3" tall about about 2" wide.

ETA: All of the caps I've found are at least 4.5" tall, far too large to fit in the 3" space. Hmmmm. I guess I could do an outside mount of the cap if I had to?

We were able to eventually get the engine RPM down a bit so VAC output was around 127 volts. I was happy with that for now. I want him to be able to use it until we find a better fix that does not require a paperclip pulling on the throttle linkage  It looks like the throttle control screws are designed to prevent under-voltages. There seems to be nothing to prevent the engine from racing up into the RPM band.

My son took the generator home. I'll ask him to snap a few pics of the linkage so I can post it here. It's a B&S Vanguard engine, 9 hp. There appears to be a throttle control lever next to the choke lever. But even turned all the way down, the engine was racing. So something may be messed up with the linkage. All of the springs and connecting rods looked intact and in good order. I was able to manually lower engine speed by pushing back on the linkage. But as soon as I released it, it was back to 145 VAC. Ugh. Otherwise, it runs great. It runs as smooth as silk with the fresh oil and new NGK plug. It just runs at a really high RPM, lol. There is a vertical bolt that the throttle lever is connected to. We managed to strip it removing the nut. Sigh. We had to improvise a wing nut on there to hold the assembly in place. It's pretty MacGyver at this point. I don't see if there's a way to remove the bolt, although it looks like there may be a way to tap it out. Can a bolt be re-threaded after it's stripped?

I told my son he needs to get an inverter and use the Porter as a backup for things like hot plates and such, like I use my Firman.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

pipe said:


> Around 11:30 on this video - perhaps ?


That's a different engine than the one my son has, but I'll take a look at the video and see if I can get some ideas.


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## pipe (Jun 27, 2021)

Another one here, maybe around 18 minutes.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

If it has a capacitor (brushless), the voltage is going to be somewhat proportional to the engine speed. Once you get the engine speed down to 61-62 Hz (3660-3720 RPM), the voltage should follow suit. Unloaded, it will probably be around 125-130V but should sag a little closer to 115-120V when loaded.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> If it has a capacitor (brushless), the voltage is going to be somewhat proportional to the engine speed. Once you get the engine speed down to 61-62 Hz (3660-3720 RPM), the voltage should follow suit. Unloaded, it will probably be around 125-130V but should sag a little closer to 115-120V when loaded.


Just from the sound of the engine, I could tell it was running at too high of an RPM. The VAC meter confirmed the engine was running too fast. The problem has been trying to figure out how to lower the RPMs. There are a few screws on the throttle linkage, but they have no effect when turned in a direction to lower the RPMs. Something within the linkage is causing the engine to race, even when there are no screw settings causing the linkage to pull on the throttle. It's almost as if the springs are too taunt, causing the throttle to open up on its own. I could manually lower the RPMs by pushing back on the linkage, but it would race the moment I released it. I've not seen a problem like this before. My son ran it in this condition last year. I'm surprised he didn't have issues with over-voltages. 

I was hoping someone here had seen a problem like that before and knew what might be causing it. It looks like there's still parts available for the engine, which is a good thing.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Just from the sound of the engine, I could tell it was running at too high of an RPM. The VAC meter confirmed the engine was running too fast. The problem has been trying to figure out how to lower the RPMs. There are a few screws on the throttle linkage, but they have no effect when turned in a direction to lower the RPMs. Something within the linkage is causing the engine to race, even when there are no screw settings causing the linkage to pull on the throttle. It's almost as if the springs are too taunt, causing the throttle to open up on its own. I could manually lower the RPMs by pushing back on the linkage, but it would race the moment I released it. I've not seen a problem like this before. My son ran it in this condition last year. I'm surprised he didn't have issues with over-voltages.
> 
> I was hoping someone here had seen a problem like that before and knew what might be causing it. It looks like there's still parts available for the engine, which is a good thing.


Some B&S engines have a tab that you bend either way to increase or decrease the RPM. That was what the video pipe posted earlier was about. It may have been a different generator but it's a B&S engine, so the speed adjustment process may be similar for both. But before that, I wanted to have a look at the linkages by asking for a picture. That is so that I (or somebody else) can see exactly what we're dealing with and will be able to assist you on what you can do on your end.

You can watch the video or other similar videos or read B&S procedure in writing here: https://www.briggsracing.com/sites/default/files/instructions-for-setting-mechanical-govenor.pdf

Failing that (either using the bendy tab or adjustment nuts/screws), runaway RPMs may be caused by a misadjusted governor or at worst, a faulty governor.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Some B&S engines have a tab that you bend either way to increase or decrease the RPM. That was what the video pipe posted earlier was about. It may have been a different generator but it's a B&S engine, so the speed adjustment process may be similar for both. But before that, I wanted to have a look at the linkages by asking for a picture. That is so that I (or somebody else) can see exactly what we're dealing with and will be able to assist you on what you can do on your end.
> 
> You can watch the video or other similar videos or read B&S procedure in writing here: https://www.briggsracing.com/sites/default/files/instructions-for-setting-mechanical-govenor.pdf
> 
> Failing that (either using the bendy tab or adjustment nuts/screws), runaway RPMs may be caused by a misadjusted governor or at worst, a faulty governor.


I got a reply from my son this morning. He's going to snap some pics and I'll post them here. I wonder if the governor is bad. How does the governor work? How do they go bad? Curious, because it all looks mechanical.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> I got a reply from my son this morning. He's going to snap some pics and I'll post them here. I wonder if the governor is bad. How does the governor work? How do they go bad? Curious, because it all looks mechanical.


Nothing to worry about just yet. We don't know if it's broken. I am still hoping that it just needs some calibration.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

OrlyP said:


> Nothing to worry about just yet. We don't know if it's broken. I am still hoping that it just needs some calibration.


I'm hoping to have some pics soon. Since my son has a new-ish girlfriend, he doesn't seem to go home much, where his generator is. I think you may be on to something with the governor. What does it look like? As far as I know, the generator doesn't have that many hours on it, but who knows. It might have lots for all I know. I do know the oil looked older than Methuselah. And the spark plug looked like it had seen a fair amount of use. I put some full synthetic in it. From what I read, the governor is what keeps the engine from over-revving, while the governor spring keeps it from under-revving. The spring is obviously working. If there's no governor to keep it in check, that could be what is causing all of the issues I'm seeing with it. 

I wanted to tell you guys that a co-worker who recently retired cleaned out his garage and gave me a bunch of stuff. A Sun Joe power washer, a brand new Honda mower that won't start (carb is probably clogged from sitting up), and a gas weed eater that looks right out the box. I guess I need to post about that in the weed eater forum. I'm hopeful you folks can tell me a bit about it.


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## iowagold (Jan 22, 2020)

LaSwamp said:


> Just from the sound of the engine, I could tell it was running at too high of an RPM. The VAC meter confirmed the engine was running too fast. The problem has been trying to figure out how to lower the RPMs. There are a few screws on the throttle linkage, but they have no effect when turned in a direction to lower the RPMs. Something within the linkage is causing the engine to race, even when there are no screw settings causing the linkage to pull on the throttle. It's almost as if the springs are too taunt, causing the throttle to open up on its own. I could manually lower the RPMs by pushing back on the linkage, but it would race the moment I released it. I've not seen a problem like this before. My son ran it in this condition last year. I'm surprised he didn't have issues with over-voltages.
> 
> I was hoping someone here had seen a problem like that before and knew what might be causing it. It looks like there's still parts available for the engine, which is a good thing.


did you try to reset the gov shaft?
the gov could be broken inside as well...


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> I'm hoping to have some pics soon. Since my son has a new-ish girlfriend, he doesn't seem to go home much, where his generator is. I think you may be on to something with the governor. What does it look like? As far as I know, the generator doesn't have that many hours on it, but who knows. It might have lots for all I know. I do know the oil looked older than Methuselah. And the spark plug looked like it had seen a fair amount of use. I put some full synthetic in it. From what I read, the governor is what keeps the engine from over-revving, while the governor spring keeps it from under-revving. The spring is obviously working. If there's no governor to keep it in check, that could be what is causing all of the issues I'm seeing with it.
> 
> I wanted to tell you guys that a co-worker who recently retired cleaned out his garage and gave me a bunch of stuff. A Sun Joe power washer, a brand new Honda mower that won't start (carb is probably clogged from sitting up), and a gas weed eater that looks right out the box. I guess I need to post about that in the weed eater forum. I'm hopeful you folks can tell me a bit about it.


The speed governor as a system has one job; keep the RPM relatively steady regardless of what kind of load the engine is subjected to throughout its operating range. Different engines may have differing governor configuration but all mechanical governors work pretty much the same way.

This video from Kohler will give you an idea on the theory of their operation.





Other methods of speed control uses electronic governors. Basically, an RPM sensor counts the revs and an actuator or stepper motor moves the throttle plate. Electronic governors are accurate as it relies on actual digital feedback. Mechanical, not so much... but they are cheap and so they're the more common. Inverter generators, because of the variable nature of their operating RPMs, use an electronic governor built into the inverter module.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> ...There appears to be a throttle control lever next to the choke lever. But even turned all the way down, the engine was racing.


Ok, this rang a bell in my head...

I was working on an old Robin engine with a speed lever. The lever allows you to put the generator on any speed between idle and 3600 RPM. 

Do note the following distinction:
1. The idle/low speed is controlled by the idle set screw (or idle stop screw) on the carb. 
2. The fast speed is set using the speed lever AND the governor.

If the engine will not slow down, check if the idle set screw on the carb was inadvertently turned all the way in. If so, that will prevent the throttle from closing and nothing the speed lever or governor can do will slow down the engine.

Not sure if this carb is the same as the one you have, but I've indicated where the idle set screw is.


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

I got the pictures of the throttle linkage. Notice my handiwork with the paperclip. Good times.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

With the innovative paperclip removed and the engine off, does the governor lever move *freely* in the direction of the arrow?

With the engine running, if you push the lever in the same direction, does the engine slow down to idle?


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Yes, with the paperclip removed, I can slide the lever to the left and the engine speed will decrease. However, once I release that lever, it slides back to where it was and racing the engine RPM. The paperclip prevents the lever from moving all the way to the right, keeping some bit of control over the running speed.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

LaSwamp said:


> Yes, with the paperclip removed, I can slide the lever to the left and the engine speed will decrease. However, once I release that lever, it slides back to where it was and racing the engine RPM. The paperclip prevents the lever from moving all the way to the right, keeping some bit of control over the running speed.


Then you're down to two possible causes.... at least from what I can tell:

1. The governor needs to be recalibrated. This is often the case when someone else tried to work on the governor but didn't put it back to the way it was.










Here's what I think you can do: With the governor lever staying taut at wide-open throttle (in the direction of the A arrow), loosen up nut B to free up the governor shaft C. Once the governor shaft is loose, turn it counter-clockwise until it stops. Don't force it. When the shaft (C) has stopped turning, tighten nut B again but with both A and C staying where they are (really important). If that's the only issue and you've done exactly what's in the instructions, that should put it back into calibration. If not....

2. The actual governor gear with the flyweights inside the crankcase may be defective and not working as it should. There’s no other fix for that other than opening up the crankcase and replacing it. I really hope it’s not that.

Good luck!


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## LaSwamp (Mar 16, 2021)

Ah, okay. I see what you're getting at. Once bolt B is loose, it will allow the governor to reset so when it's tightened, the throttle linkage should lower the RPMs back to normal. It's a used generator, so I don't know if anyone has ever messed with bolt B before. They may have in the past trying to get a bit more wattage out of the generator. But that's just speculation. That wing nut you see in the pics, the bolt got stripped so I have to improvise a bit. I have a die set so I can put another set of threads on it. 

The capacitor is only 3" tall by 2" wide. I've been unable to find a replacement in that size and uF. I could use a ring clamp and fasten a larger one externally? At least, I'm presuming I can.


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## OrlyP (Oct 19, 2021)

The cap can be mounted outside. Better if you can hide the cap inside the control box. All that's needed is to extend the two leads. They're non-polarized so it won't matter which wire goes to which cap terminal.


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