# Propane tank freezing



## Rankamateur

Howdy yall.

This forum helped me so much I thought I would pass this by the peeps.

We had a power outage yesterday and used my generator using propane for fuel. First time I used it this long on propane. 

I have a couple 40# bottles and a 20# bottle. After using about 3/4 of the 40# bottle the generator died of fuel starvation and the bottle was frozen. For grins I hooked up the #20 bottle and the generator quit after using about half the bottle and it to was frozen.

I have looked for manifolds to hook bottles up together to lessen the flow rate from a bottle to hopefully keep this from happening but really haven't found something I need. The manufacturer installed a regulator on the generator so any products that use a regulator to hook up bottles will not work. 

Does anyone anything to share to resolve this issue?

Thanks everyone! And Merry Christmas!


----------



## tabora

Rankamateur said:


> Does anyone anything to share to resolve this issue?


 In cold weather, small propane cylinders require warming in order to function until empty. In my case, I place the cylinder in the exhaust air flow from my generator shed. I originally ran the propane regulator out through a hole on the intake side; that has since been changed for cold weather use.

The real solution is to use a very large cylinder, like a 420 lb tank: about 4 feet tall by 3 feet diameter.


----------



## sportplumber

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000K287CG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But as stated, bigger tank


----------



## tabora

I guess one of these Powerblanket PBL20 Cylinder Heaters would work, too:


----------



## KRE

Rankamateur said:


> Howdy yall.
> 
> This forum helped me so much I thought I would pass this by the peeps.
> 
> We had a power outage yesterday and used my generator using propane for fuel. First time I used it this long on propane.
> 
> I have a couple 40# bottles and a 20# bottle. After using about 3/4 of the 40# bottle the generator died of fuel starvation and the bottle was frozen. For grins I hooked up the #20 bottle and the generator quit after using about half the bottle and it to was frozen.
> 
> I have looked for manifolds to hook bottles up together to lessen the flow rate from a bottle to hopefully keep this from happening but really haven't found something I need. The manufacturer installed a regulator on the generator so any products that use a regulator to hook up bottles will not work.
> 
> Does anyone anything to share to resolve this issue?
> 
> Thanks everyone! And Merry Christmas!


Your tanks are not big enough to vaporize the fuel, that is way they are freezing up. Regardless of what you are told or see in any ad,... NEVER EVER HEAT A TANK!!! That sir is asking for trouble. If Murphy comes calling he will either kill you, a loved one, or possibly destroy everything you own. Get a tank/s of the proper size or switch your fuel system to liquid.


----------



## HarryN

I assume that you are using 20 and 40+ bottles so that they are portable, can be filled at a propane fuel station and transported back home.

In theory the liquid supply concept suggestion makes sense, but portable bottles often don't allow for that concept anymore. Perhaps yours do but mine have an internal valve that prevents this from happening.

A lot of LP / Propane sold in retail contains substantial amounts of butane and other similar fuels. Butane evaporates at right around 30 - 35 F, so what can happen is the propane portion evaporates and leaves the liquid butane in the tank. Essentially in winter conditions, it doesn't evaporate very well. There is some vapor pressure - but not tons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane

It is one of the ways that companies that sell "pre-filled" bottles make extra money - only 1/2 is usable, but they charge for the whole "tank".

The other problem is what happens to every propane use - the bottle cools substantially during use. I get this just running a grill.

Since you (probably) cannot access the liquid in the tank, and direct heating with an electric blanket has been frowned upon, I would be tempted to put the tanks into a tank of warm water during use. (40-50 F). Even cold well water is usually this warm, so in theory you could just run cold water in / drain it off to help keep it "warmer".


----------



## Melson

But can you rent a residential propane? Because maybe by the time you expend the time & money cobbling a piecemeal solution would will equal or exceed the price for a proper tank?


----------



## Melson

propane = propane tank


----------



## Rankamateur

Thanks for all the responses!

My use is for a few times a year possibly one week per use for a 12,500w dual fuel (propane and gas) back up generator.

Unfortunately there is no way to install a large tank and due to the infrequent use, cost considerations.

I chose the dual fuel as to have fuel readily available.

I sure can understand the thought of combining propane and a heating source can be very volatile. A heating blanket seems very tame and can not find one case off hand where that became a problem for anyone. This option seems to be the most reasonable. Are they really that dangerous? Certainly don't want to do something that could cause harm and/or damage.


----------



## tabora

Rankamateur said:


> A heating blanket seems very tame and can not find one case off hand where that became a problem for anyone. This option seems to be the most reasonable. Are they really that dangerous? Certainly don't want to do something that could cause harm and/or damage.


 I can't imagine the Powerblanket PBL20 Cylinder Heaters being dangerous, or the company wouldn't be able to afford the liability insurance on them... It only heats to 90°F / 32°C (± 10°F/5°C), which is just a bit higher than my shed exhaust temperature of about 70°F when it's 32°F outside (I have thermal sensors with alarms inside & outside of the shed). The Powerblanket is certified to UL/CSA/CE standards. I would just plug it into the generator itself, as I do with my exhaust fan, so it runs when the generator does. Here's the link to the manual: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91I2r6wVGSS.pdf

As far as a large tank goes, my heating oil company was more than happy to loan me a 420lb propane tank for my barn heaters and only charged me for the propane itself. It was filled in 2007 and I still have not emptied it yet since I only run it in the winter when I'm working out there. Likewise, I have 2 "free" 100lb cylinders at our island camp that each get swapped out about every 1.5 years.


----------



## exmar

FWIW: I have a 400 gallon propane tank which is used for heating and kitchen range. For the past twenty years the propane company fills it in August and February. This year, they also appeared in December. I asked the driver if they were getting a head start on Feb.? He laughed and said, no I'll see you then, much colder this year so we're taking care of our customers. It was 14 here this AM. So, if we actually have a real winter this year this topic should be very appropriate.


----------



## HarryN

tabora said:


> I can't imagine the Powerblanket PBL20 Cylinder Heaters being dangerous, or the company wouldn't be able to afford the liability insurance on them... It only heats to 90°F / 32°C (± 10°F/5°C), which is just a bit higher than my shed exhaust temperature of about 70°F when it's 32°F outside (I have thermal sensors with alarms inside & outside of the shed). The Powerblanket is certified to UL/CSA/CE standards. I would just plug it into the generator itself, as I do with my exhaust fan, so it runs when the generator does. Here's the link to the manual: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91I2r6wVGSS.pdf
> 
> As far as a large tank goes, my heating oil company was more than happy to loan me a 420lb propane tank for my barn heaters and only charged me for the propane itself. It was filled in 2007 and I still have not emptied it yet since I only run it in the winter when I'm working out there. Likewise, I have 2 "free" 100lb cylinders at our island camp that each get swapped out about every 1.5 years.


Yes, propane companies will loan bulk tanks out because they make a LOT of profit off of it. There were times in the recent past when the wholesale price was effectively negative. (refineries were paying people to take it)

One of the interesting aspects of your setup is that it is fairly similar to what is done to "blanket" tanks with a relatively inert gas. Engine exhaust has a reduced oxygen content, so in some applications, it is used to reduce fire risk.


----------



## motormonkey

HarryN makes an interesting point. The amount of butane in the tank could be a big part of the problem.

LP gas is supposed to be produced and marketed seasonally, just like gasoline. The rationale is to provide gas with fewer high-freezing-point components, (or high-boiling-point components) like butane, in the mix in the cold winter months. They can get by with more of these components in the mix in the warmer summer months.

Since seasons may change before a tank or supply is exhausted, this may not always assure that you are getting a summer or a winter mix during the appropriate season. Where and when you buy your gas could affect the amount of butane in it.

It might be worth making the effort to try to find out what the butane content of the gas you're getting is. Your local LP gas company may be able to tell you what they currently have in their tanks, and you can buy accordingly.


----------



## pepperpikker

We used to live in a small home that had two 100 lb tanks. I know I used to deal with them by myself so they can't be all that heavy. I would think two people could deal with them just fine. Maybe a 100 lb tank which more than double the size you use now would be adequate to prevent freeze up. They are about 4 feet or so tall.


----------



## Gizmo

I have used the Powerblanket heaters on my two 30 lb tanks for 3 years now in the winter months (4-5 months continuously 24/7) without any issues! This helps to get full output from propane heaters in the cold weather.

My 2 cents worth!
Gizmo


----------



## iowagold

motormonkey said:


> HarryN makes an interesting point. The amount of butane in the tank could be a big part of the problem.
> 
> LP gas is supposed to be produced and marketed seasonally, just like gasoline. The rationale is to provide gas with fewer high-freezing-point components, (or high-boiling-point components) like butane, in the mix in the cold winter months. They can get by with more of these components in the mix in the warmer summer months.
> 
> Since seasons may change before a tank or supply is exhausted, this may not always assure that you are getting a summer or a winter mix during the appropriate season. Where and when you buy your gas could affect the amount of butane in it.
> 
> It might be worth making the effort to try to find out what the butane content of the gas you're getting is. Your local LP gas company may be able to tell you what they currently have in their tanks, and you can buy accordingly.


hey question while we are on blends for lp subject.
is there a difference on the water during combustion of these blended lp fuels??

I had a recent client with 2 bottles of lp for his fork truck..
one was filled at one vender in town and the other was filled by another...
both sell lots of lp… the vender with the higher moisture out the exhaust has a larger tank...
so could it have had summer blend???

and yes on tank heaters. they work!!
use double redundant thermo switches / sensors for tank temp regulation rated at explosion sealed... after all it will be located by a tank that could vent explosive gas!!

and watch all lp tanks for over fill!!
winter filled tanks if over filled may try to vent if they are not used some...
we had that on a couple of grill tanks...
they did not use the scale right and over filled a bit!!


----------



## DaveInRhodeIsland

*More details on your shed?*



tabora said:


> In cold weather, small propane cylinders require warming in order to function until empty. In my case, I place the cylinder in the exhaust air flow from my generator shed. I originally ran the propane regulator out through a hole on the intake side; that has since been changed for cold weather use.
> 
> The real solution is to use a very large cylinder, like a 420 lb tank: about 4 feet tall by 3 feet diameter.



Hi Just joined this forum because of this thread, which is pretty much the same issue I'm dealing with. I saw your post with the pictures of your generator shed, and was wondering if you'd be willing to share more info about it. I have a shed for my generator - Duromax XP12000EH Dual Fuel.


I've been running it since Friday due to outages, with two 40# propane tanks, swapping as needed. I experienced the same freezing problems as the OP.


I'd like to see what this shed is set up with, as I could do something similar with mine. The shed I have isn't as large, but it's big enough to store the generator and tanks with room to spare.


Appreciate any info. Thanks.


----------



## jkingrph

I did a periodic test/exercise run on my two little Honda EU 2000 generators, converted to bi fuel. I hooked both to the same 20 lb propane bottle and had them each powering a 1500 watt electric heater. The bottle started getting cold quickly, so I tu. rned one of the forced air heaters on it and ran the generaters about an hour. Bottle was not full to start with, and outside temp was mid 50's so I can see where a small bottle could easily freeze in cold weather.


----------



## drmerdp

Here’s so literature from Genconnex about their runtimes and tank selection on propane. Very useful info.

https://genconnexdirect.net/Liturature/Technotes/GenConneX_Technote_Propane_Tank_Runtimes.pdf


----------



## tabora

DaveInRhodeIsland said:


> Hi Just joined this forum because of this thread, which is pretty much the same issue I'm dealing with. I saw your post with the pictures of your generator shed, and was wondering if you'd be willing to share more info about it. I have a shed for my generator - Duromax XP12000EH Dual Fuel.


 Here's a link to the details of the shed's innards: https://www.powerequipmentforum.com/forum/69358-post10.html Let me know if you have any additional questions.

I actually designed the shed specifically for the Duromax XP12000EH, but before I could purchase one an emergency arose; my older Generac broke a valve during a week-long power outage in 2017, and when I went to Home Depot for some parts, they were selling PowerMate PM0126000 units off a truck at a good discount due to the packaging being ruined from a warehouse roof partial collapse. I have now decided to keep running the PowerMate until a large inverter generator that meets my desires comes along: https://www.powerequipmentforum.com/forum/69020-post3.html


----------



## DaveInRhodeIsland

tabora said:


> Here's a link to the details of the shed's innards: https://www.powerequipmentforum.com/forum/69358-post10.html Let me know if you have any additional questions.
> 
> I actually designed the shed specifically for the Duromax XP12000EH, but before I could purchase one an emergency arose; my older Generac broke a valve during a week-long power outage in 2017, and when I went to Home Depot for some parts, they were selling PowerMate PM0126000 units off a truck at a good discount due to the packaging being ruined from a warehouse roof partial collapse. I have now decided to keep running the PowerMate until a large inverter generator that meets my desires comes along: https://www.powerequipmentforum.com/forum/69020-post3.html



Thanks, this is great. Really appreciate the details, and here's to reliable utility power!


----------



## lisa-martin

Propane tanks can freeze up while in use. Usually, it is a sign the regulator is feeding the propane too quickly, or there is a high level of humidity. It may be alarming to notice the tank is freezing up, but it is not dangerous.


----------



## iowagold

yea it is a demand therms per hour feed thing..
the power blanket with the safety thermo switch is the way to go..
kinda surprised the 40lb were icing... that is a real WOW!!
most of the charts I have say use the 100lb or larger tank...
but then we ice over the 100lb tanks on the remote job sites when it is -10 deg f with out a power blanket heater on the tanks. larger job site furnace...

last site we used an 1000lb lp tank trailer set up and a hitching post for the trailer to keep the honest as honest..
it worked well for the larger 500k btu heater on that site.


----------



## Chip

DaveInRhodeIsland said:


> *More details on your shed?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Just joined this forum because of this thread, which is pretty much the same issue I'm dealing with. I saw your post with the pictures of your generator shed, and was wondering if you'd be willing to share more info about it. I have a shed for my generator - Duromax XP12000EH Dual Fuel.
> 
> 
> I've been running it since Friday due to outages, with two 40# propane tanks, swapping as needed. I experienced the same freezing problems as the OP.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see what this shed is set up with, as I could do something similar with mine. The shed I have isn't as large, but it's big enough to store the generator and tanks with room to spare.
> 
> 
> Appreciate any info. Thanks.


Hi, I need to upgrade to a 12000 watt dual fuel and was hoping you could give me your opinion of the DuroMax? I have a Champion now and Love it but I have the largest dual fuel they make and it is not quite large enough, any feedback ?


----------



## Chip

iowagold said:


> yea it is a demand therms per hour feed thing..
> the power blanket with the safety thermo switch is the way to go..
> kinda surprised the 40lb were icing... that is a real WOW!!
> most of the charts I have say use the 100lb or larger tank...
> but then we ice over the 100lb tanks on the remote job sites when it is -10 deg f with out a power blanket heater on the tanks. larger job site furnace...
> 
> last site we used an 1000lb lp tank trailer set up and a hitching post for the trailer to keep the honest as honest..
> it worked well for the larger 500k btu heater on that site.


Do you know if you need a 2-stage regulator like what comes with the Champion Dual fuels or is a single stage okay? I’ll get the heating blanket for sure


----------



## iowagold

Chip said:


> Do you know if you need a 2-stage regulator like what comes with the Champion Dual fuels or is a single stage okay? I’ll get the heating blanket for sure


most safe LP systems are 2 stage with a demand regulator.
some will have an electric valve for safety for emergency shut down.


----------



## Chip

Okay, so the 2 stage is a safety feature, I’ll have to get that as I bought a longer propane hose with the metal braiding to reach a 40 lb tank but it is a singe stage regulator. Thanks!


----------



## iowagold

best to get the tank as close to the gen as you can...
or run LP liquid rated valves on the high pressure hoses so you do not waste fuel when reconnecting or swapping out tanks.
and yes the rv switch over valves work well for 2 tank systems!
100 lb tanks work better on gens over 5kw.


----------



## Chip

iowagold said:


> best to get the tank as close to the gen as you can...
> or run LP liquid rated valves on the high pressure hoses so you do not waste fuel when reconnecting or swapping out tanks.
> and yes the rv switch over valves work well for 2 tank systems!
> 100 lb tanks work better on gens over 5kw.


Wow! Great info. We just went through Hurricane IDA and after using gas and propane for 4 days I am definitely investing in 2, 100 lb tanks that I can strap together for easy switch over…I just need a bit more power as I have to run 1 4 ton AC and a well pump and my 8000 watt gen is just not quite enough
Thanks so much!


----------



## Bulldogger

Rankamateur said:


> Thanks for all the responses!
> 
> My use is for a few times a year possibly one week per use for a 12,500w dual fuel (propane and gas) back up generator.
> 
> Unfortunately there is no way to install a large tank and due to the infrequent use, cost considerations.
> 
> I chose the dual fuel as to have fuel readily available.
> 
> I sure can understand the thought of combining propane and a heating source can be very volatile. A heating blanket seems very tame and can not find one case off hand where that became a problem for anyone. This option seems to be the most reasonable. Are they really that dangerous? Certainly don't want to do something that could cause harm and/or damage.


 I'd get a 100 pound tank and blanket for it. I just bought two to power my generator for Hurricane Ida. Didn't lose power for very long so didn't need them.


----------



## Bear

Rankamateur said:


> Howdy yall.
> 
> This forum helped me so much I thought I would pass this by the peeps.
> 
> We had a power outage yesterday and used my generator using propane for fuel. First time I used it this long on propane.
> 
> I have a couple 40# bottles and a 20# bottle. After using about 3/4 of the 40# bottle the generator died of fuel starvation and the bottle was frozen. For grins I hooked up the #20 bottle and the generator quit after using about half the bottle and it to was frozen.
> 
> I have looked for manifolds to hook bottles up together to lessen the flow rate from a bottle to hopefully keep this from happening but really haven't found something I need. The manufacturer installed a regulator on the generator so any products that use a regulator to hook up bottles will not work.
> 
> Does anyone anything to share to resolve this issue?
> 
> Thanks everyone! And Merry Christmas!


I have 4 x 40-pound tanks. I connect two directly using a Y connector, so I have 2 banks of 2 tanks. The two banks are connected to an auto change regulator. The double tanks on each bank improve the amount of vapor available, even in sub-freezing weather. Not to mention I don't have to worry about it going out for at least 24 hours. So if every morning I change out the empty bank, then recheck before bed, I can usually have a solid nonstop supply of power. Maybe when you get your 30 LB tanks you could do something similar with 2 x 20lb and 2 x 30 lb. here is a link for the Y's Amazon.com


----------

